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Tadiana ✩Night Owl☽
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Jun 22, 2017 01:58PM
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Re: Paul and ValerieWhile I am happy for them at the end, I am not sure I totally believe Val's change of heart. She was so self-centered and flat-out bitchy to Paul for years(!!)--old habits of thought and action are so hard to break. I would have liked to have seen more examples of her sticking to her resolution to quit acting the martyr.
Re Mary and Paul:
Does Goudge make a habit of writing lovers who don't act on their love? Paul tells Valerie that he's doesn't love Mary, but we also listen in on him mentally naming Mary 'his woman'. Meanwhile Mary is learning to love her late fiance John by falling in love with Paul.
Re: Charles: Will he finally shape up? He seems determined, but will he be able to stick to it? I'm not so sure,but I applaud the effort.
There--that's three things to get the ball rolling...
Just finished a few minutes ago. Paul and Valerie: I feel her change is just sufficiently justified by her apparent wish to be dominated; she seems to feel relief when Paul takes charge. Perhaps part of her problem was feeling overwhelmed by the responsibility (though how that’s going to square with bringing up a child remains to be seen!). And having Paul be a success might make her happier to be his sidekick. And I’m cynically sure that having more money will help the situation.Mary and Paul: I can’t remember enough about Goudge novels to say whether writing about lovers who don’t act on their love (at least in the carnal sense) is a recurring feature. But it seems to me that this book is very much not about carnal love, but rather about the transcendent, kinds of love. [Hears strains of Steve Winwood in the background: “Bring me a higher love . . .”]
Charles: Perhaps the best we can say is that Goudge left him offstage so we may imagine the happiest ending we might about him. I doubt she thought he would shape up in the long term.
Way to get the ball rolling, Barb! Good questions.
AbigailRe: Paul and Mary--yes, I also got the feeling that, in this case, we were talking about a 'meeting (intellectual and spiritual) of two minds' with these two characters. And that Paul was willing to sublimate his rapport with Mary for the sake of sustaining his marriage with Valerie. Mary publicly kept her feelings under wraps, because she 'had' to, but acknowledged them privately to herself, because that was the 'honest' thing to do.
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Does Goudge make a habit of writing lovers who don't act on their love?..."
Thank you for those great questions, Barb! The struggle between duty and personal inclination is a theme that runs through many of Elizabeth Goudge's novels. In The Bird in the Tree, a young man falls in love with an older woman and must choose between his passion and the happiness of a large extended family. Goudge comes down very much on the side of fidelity to family and community in contrast to individuality, independence and 'self-fulfillment'. She clearly believes that true joy and redemption come from engagement and caring about others. Very old-fashioned indeed!
I wonder how much of Mary's character is 'autobiographical'... in "The Joy of the Snow" Goudge writes something like "the only man I ever loved died in the war..." (I will have to look up that quote as I am writing from memory). I do know that she was disappointed in love.There are troubled marriages in "The Rosemary Tree", "Green Dolphin Street", "The Child from the Sea", and "The Bird in the Tree" (although each situation is different; some of the marriage problems are resolved but at least one of them isn't). Goudge also says in her autobiography that 'women are 'forever' falling in love out of wedlock' which is quite an interesting comment (?? perhaps what she meant is that women tend to make emotional attachments more easily than men? or perhaps she was just very observant. Available men were in scarce supply after WW1, the era when she would have been just coming to marriageable age.) However she always undergirds her stories with a moral choice and foundation and stresses the importance of faithfulness to the marriage vows. What I really like about her is that she doesn't mince over the struggles real people have in real life. Goudge's writing is often full of surprises but she also gives satisfactory solutions.
It seems to me that Paul and Mary made an emotional attachment. Each was longing for a 'connection', and Valerie's obvious discontent made Paul hesitant to look for that kind of rapport with his own wife. Mary was feeling guilt (just my guess) and disappointment from her relationship with her fiance and although she realizes it is impossible for her to go back and fix it, Paul becomes her 'project' as she encourages him in his writing (too much introspection here maybe?)
And I also apologize in advance for my lengthy post! (I should just be quiet). I can't seem to help not writing about her because I 'grew up' with her writing!
Theresa wrote: "I wonder how much of Mary's character is 'autobiographical'... in "The Joy of the Snow" Goudge writes something like "the only man I ever loved died in the war..." (I will have to look up that quot..."Theresa--good points! (and no, the post was not too long). Early in the book Mary admits to a feeling of failure, in that she didn't/couldn't love John as much as she wanted to. My interpretation of her relationship with Paul is that, in loving him, she began to love John as well. She often merges the two men in her mind towards the end of the book.
Another thought--this time about the Vicar. I thought it rather ironic that, in a book full of people coming to faith and grace, the vicar has no such story arc. We know that he dislikes, is fearful of, women. Especially crying women! [The bit where he worried about having to comfort Mrs Hepplewhite had me laughing out loud!].However, I never got the impression that he was a man of faith.
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Hana, Hana is In Absentia
(last edited Jun 23, 2017 06:48AM)
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That's so true, Theresa. Her characters always have personality flaws--even the children are never perfect little angels. And she doesn't write classic happily-ever-after endings.
Example: Will Paul and Valerie be happier? Probably (they could hardly have been more miserable) but it's easy to imagine some choppy waters ahead. Will Valerie shed her impossible housekeeping standards once the baby arrives? Likely not without some anguish. Of course now there is money she can always hire a nanny. As Abigail points out--money helps!
Mod
Great observation. If the vicar has faith it's of an intellectual sort; a superficial faith of words not deeds. He really treats his sister very cruelly, all the while convinced he's sacrificing himself for her.
I think the Vicar's faith is deep, but, like you said, Hana, it's intellectual. And that's the kind of man he is! Everything in his life springs from his intellect. (After all, he only had one emotional attachment, and it was to his dog.) He is a dutiful man, because he knows it's right, and he tries to do his duty with kindness and patience, but those are not even slightly natural qualities for him - and so he's always having to go back and try to make amends for his lack. He is not able to understand other people unless their minds touch his, and very few people are able to meet him on common ground.But I do like that he keeps doing his duty even though it's not what he wants to do!
I was thinking about The White Witch and how the characters in it who are in love don't marry, but still have that crazy connection between them. I think Goudge does often portray people who deny themselves for what they perceive as the better good. An odd sentiment for our time!
I really expected the vicar to get more of a story arc, so I was surprised when Goudge left him pretty much alone. He means well (I often say that about a couple of somewhat annoying personalities in my own family), which is his saving grace. And I think something was said at one point about his faith, so he does have some level of it, though yes, I agree it does look like more of an intellectual belief and love of religious ceremony.I thought the reveal of his sister's courage and intelligence, despite her emotional issues (or perhaps because of them) was REALLY well done.
Theresa, your post was not too long at all! I like how you described Mary's mixed motivations of guilt over John and disappointment (much of it with herself). I like to think of Mary and John reconnecting in the hereafter and becoming much more emotionally connected to each other.
It was so interesting to see Paul through Valerie's eyes at first, and then to find out what he was really like. Quite a contrast. She would definitely drive me nuts in real life. I hope for the best here too; I think they'll make it, but not without some more tears and heartache.
I want to know more about the squire's "nefarious" business project. :)
Tadiana ✩Night Owl☽ wrote: "I want to know more about the squire's "nefarious" business project. :) I was trying to figure that out myself! The only real details we have to go on are in the Vicar's explanation to Mrs H. Was he a Madoff-type, running a scam for his own enrichment? Did he run a business that had investors specifically for project X and he bet the wad on Mad Gamble Y?
Was Julie (the siren assistant) a plant by rival Lawson(was that his name? I don't have the book handy) or did Lawson 'buy' her, after she started to work for Mr H. Hmmm...
I think toward the end it was pretty clear that Hepplewhite was speculating, investing his investors' money in unauthorized get-rich-quick schemes -- and the big one failed, or he might have gotten off more lightly. But I tend to think there should be something more to it to merit the description of "nefarious"--though with Goudge's moral view of the world, maybe that in itself is enough.
Tadiana ✩Night Owl☽ wrote: "I think toward the end it was pretty clear that Hepplewhite was speculating, investing his investors' money in unauthorized get-rich-quick schemes -- and the big one failed, or he might have gotten..."True--Goudge, speaking through the vicar, says that what Mr H did was 'morally' wrong, even if the big gamble had paid off.
Interesting comments about the vicar. I saw him structurally as someone who existed to make his sister’s life a torment so she could begin to deal her issues over the arc of the story. He seemed more defined in opposition to her than much of a person in his own right.
When you think of all the characters in this book, the sheer number is amazing. (And I also find it amazing that I don't get any of them mixed up.) I think part of the reason for it is that Goudge is showing us how connected we all are and that, especially in a small community, what we do and who we are is of supreme importance to every single person who passes through. Not one of these characters, not even Charles, lives in an empty vacuum. I also love how the sense of duty, of doing things because they're the right things to do, runs through this. Mary is kind to Jean and Mrs. Hepplewhite, who are not intrinsically loveable. Colonel Adams sells their beloved card table to be able to put Charles in a private room, not to mention the generous check he gave him earlier. The vicar uproots his very comfortable life in order to provide a home for Jean, who is obedient and does what she knows she should, even when she's scared half to death. And Mrs. Baker and Jenny caring for Cousin Mary in her "bad times" - even though they loved her, it must have been incredibly difficult. Edith comes to understand the concept very quickly; how she must have dreaded telling about the little things.
I just love how admirable these characters are! None of them are perfect and they make mistakes all of the time and yet, they keep trying. Admirable.
That's true, the vicar did upend his life, moving to the country because he knew Jean was so unhappy in the town, which he loved ... Oxford, was it?Also, can I just say that when Colonel Adams wrote that big check for his wastrel son I was all, "NO!! Don't do that! You're enabling! It's not really helping him, and you're hurting yourself and your wife." Different times, perhaps? This was written about 60 years ago.
I also noticed how much of Mary's time was spent with Jean and Mrs. Hepplewhite, women whose company she didn't really enjoy as much (at least not Mrs. Hepplewhite's). It's that moral obligation, as you mentioned, Karlyne. I don't have the book in front of me now, but when Mary first moved to town and met ... was it Mrs. Baker? ... who was taking care of her home. Mary was thinking that she knew that they would be the best of friends, or something along those lines. So I thought Mrs. Baker would be a key character in the book, and we hardly see her again. Life took Mary in a very different direction.
Another excellent character: the guy (Mr. Baker?) who was doing the hand woodworking back in the squire's old abandoned house. Great scene when Mary and Paul go to visit there.
Mod
That's a wonderful (and very charitable way) to look at the Vicar. I do think you are right, Karlyne and you've made me think more kindly of him. Clearly his sister is his moral "test"--will he eventually pass the test? Perhaps, with Mary's help.
For me, it’s all about connection. Sometimes it’s a chore to be part of a society, but it’s also very rewarding. Mary’s great emotional and spiritual renewal comes when she moves from the impersonal city to a small village where one has to engage with others.
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Hana, Hana is In Absentia
(last edited Jun 23, 2017 04:06PM)
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I suspected some sort of nasty, high-pressure buy-out. for example he might have had some dirt on another businessman, or might have held some outstanding loans. Perhaps the letters were an attempt to pressure the other businessman into a deal or a below-market sale, for example by forcing a foreclosure action.
It would be borderline legal but it would not be moral, especially if he had trapped the businessman in order to get the upper hand in the first place. His encounter with the young Baker boy kindled some small spark of kindness that his secretary circumvented by mailing the letters. Was she a plant? Quite possibly. Or she turned him in out of pure spite. I'm sure she had a hand somehow in his Hepplewhite's downfall.
I liked Karlyne's comment about duty... it's interesting to think how this shows up in the characters differently. Remember when the vicar says "she must be visited" (meaning, Mrs. Hepplewhite) and his sister is scared out of her wits, and he says "NOT YOU!" He has a sense of duty but somehow lacks in showing a genuine compassion... Mary on the other hand, by the end of the book, is the one that others turn to for solace (Mrs. H. for one), and then there is Mrs. Hepplew. herself, who throws herself with such overwhelming kindness upon others to the extreme that it results in avoiding her company... why is it that these different personalities all try to do the right thing and yet some are more successful in their personal relationships than others? what makes me chuckle is that in the first chapter, Mary thinks she is escaping to a quiet countryside and yet finds herself very involved in the village (as Karleyne pointed out.) And I like the comment about what we do is so important (even if we don't see results for a long time). Everyone is writing such great insights I am learning more (esp. about why I liked this book), just by reading ya'll's comments!!!
I read a D.E. Stevenson over the weekend (Mrs. Tim Gets a Job), and I was struck by a passage in it. Mrs. Tim is having tea with two American guests and the conversation moves around to happiness. When Mrs. Tim says that happiness is not important, one of her guests, obviously shocked, says "But our Declaration of Independence, the Pursuit of Happiness!" Mrs. Tim explains that she feels that only by working for the happiness of others can we find a measure of happiness. When we pursue it as a good in itself we never find it.There are, of course, times when pursuing happiness is fine, but it all boils down to a knowledge of what is best for the community. Wow! That's such a different concept for our modern thinking!
Sad but true, Karlyne.
The vicar was a 'convinced Anglican' I believe, so, I took that to mean that he was not a man of faith, rather one who accepted what was without really feeling. A scholarly man who did what he thought was right because he rigidly adapted to what was taught as right, not because he had a strong inner sense of wrong and right. A bit like his faith was external, not internal.
Critterbee wrote: "The vicar was a 'convinced Anglican' I believe, so, I took that to mean that he was not a man of faith, rather one who accepted what was without really feeling. A scholarly man who did what he thou..."Yes. Good point. I felt he went to seminary to learn the rituals and duties that he needed to be ordained and thus qualify for a parish and that he didn't seek a deeper examination of his faith.
I think the vicar was just plain not emotional. His passions were for discussing and debating, and he had that in Oxford. His faith, like that of many other scholarly men, was based on an intellectual belief. He didn't feel it, but he knew it. I think his sense of right and wrong was very strong, and although he struggled with being tactful and kind, I think he gave Hermione a pretty honest answer about Hepplewhite's wrong-doing. In fact, the more I think about him, the more I like the Vicar!
Karlyne wrote: "In fact, the more I think about him, the more I like the Vicar! "Me, too. The scene that sold me on him was where he was picturing Mrs Hepplewhite crying all over him. He is terrified (!) at the prospect and I was laughing out loud.
I'll admit to some fondness for the vicar myself. I was initially kind of hoping that he might be a romantic interest for Mary (after she loosens him up a little).
There's something awfully appealing about a guy who acts on what he knows is right and not just on his feelings. I hadn't thought about him as a romantic interest for Mary, but wouldn't that have made a completely different book, interesting in its own way!
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So sorry it was a disappointment for you!
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Carol She's So Novel꧁꧂ , She's a mod, yeah, yeah, yeah!
(last edited Jul 27, 2021 04:47PM)
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It happens! I don't love every Georgette Heyer & Agatha Christie after all!
Carol She's So Novel꧁꧂ wrote: "I feel abit left out (other than Critterbee!) as I really didn't care for this book. I found Mary too perfect, the symbolism very heavy handed and I really disliked Valerie and David! & I found the..."Why did you think Mary too perfect? I kind of thought that falling in love with a married man made her rather human!
