Political Philosophy and Ethics discussion
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New Member Introductions
Mod
In reading your comment, I thought immediately of classical Athens, in which citizens were chosen at random for political offices. In looking at your website, I see that this is, indeed, your model. I think I have also seen other arguments advocating this view, but I don't recall where. Perhaps it was on academia.edu.
We welcome people of all political views, as long as they do not promote violence. You clearly are on the nonviolent side of things, so that is not a problem. If you wish to discuss your views in this forum, perhaps you could open a separate topic (in the "Political Philosophy" folder) on "Sortition" (or other name that you think is appropriate).
Although I have not studied this precise issue in any depth, my tentative thinking is that your system would obviously bring to political power many people who have little knowledge of or experience in government. One only has to look at our current president and his supporters to see what that might look like. It seems to me that we need more, not less, knowledge and experience. Random political leadership appears to be the exact opposite of Plato's philosopher-king. Indeed, Plato evidently arrived at his formulation after experiencing the radical democracy of ancient Athens, including its execution of Socrates. See Plato's Seventh Letter 324b-326b. (In the event you are interested, I wrote my Master's Essay, long ago, on Plato's Seventh Letter, and I have posted the essay here.)
I encourage you to respond to my foregoing arguments, preferably in a separate topic entitled "Sortition" (or other descriptive name).
Alan E. Johnson
Moderator
Hi everyone. My name is Borum. I'm from Seoul, a city that has been very politically active nowadays. However, I'm an MD specializing in laboratory medicine and haven't attended any humanities course in college. My political or philosophical background is solely based on self-read books and I would love to learn from the experts in this group. I have read Plato, Aristotle, Machiavelli, More, Hobbes and am going through Locke at this instant and am still groping at what exactly they are trying to say and what to form my thoughts based on them. In short, I'm sort of like the lost soul Pierre in War and Peace. I'm afraid I might not add much insight to the discussions but I'll be happy to share and learn albeit in a much befuddled way.
Mod
I'm from Seoul, a city that has been very politically active nowadays. However, I'm an MD specializing in laboratory medicine and haven't attended any humanities cou..."
Welcome to the group, Borum. Plato, Aristotle et al. are difficult to understand, and different people have different ways of interpreting them. It might help for you to read the respective topics in this group on Plato and the others. Even Locke, whom I earlier thought was pretty straightforward, turns out, upon a closer reading, to be puzzling. See also the topic "Leo Strauss (1899-1973) and the Straussians." Strauss had a unique approach to reading and interpreting pre-nineteenth-century philosophers, especially Plato. Although his approach remains controversial, I think he was probably correct regarding Plato and possibly correct regarding the others.
Alan wrote: "Borum wrote: "Hi everyone. My name is Borum. I'm from Seoul, a city that has been very politically active nowadays. However, I'm an MD specializing in laboratory medicine and haven't attended any ..."
Thank you very much for the recommendation. Alas, that book is not available in Korea. :-(
Would "Studies in Platonic Political Philosophy" or "
History of Political Philosophy,3rd edition" or
"What Is Political Philosophy? and Other Studies " be ok to read instead?
Mod
Would "Studies in Platonic Political Philosophy" or "
History of Political Philosophy,3rd edition" or
"What Is Political Philosophy? and Other Studies " be ok to read instead?"
All of those books are good, but I think you may have misunderstood what I was saying. "Leo Strauss (1899-1973) and the Straussians" is not a book but rather a topic in this Goodreads group, which can be located here. As an introductory matter, I would advise reading the comments in that topic and then also reading the comments in the Plato topic. That would give you a good background for reading the books you listed as well as Plato's writings themselves. When you read these two topics, you might note the English translations of Plato that I recommend in my comments. Your English is excellent, and you should not have any difficulty in reading the English translations, though there are probably translations in Asian languages as well. And, of course, if you know classical Greek, that would be the best, but I'm guessing that you are like most of us (including myself) and don't have a fluency in classical Greek such that you can read it cold without the assistance of a good translation.
And don't worry about being a beginner in philosophic studies. I've been studying some of these works for fifty years (interrupted, for more than thirty years, by a very time-consuming career as an attorney), and I still consider myself a beginner, even though I've read some of these works multiple times. The works that are the subject of this Goodreads group are not books that one reads once and discards. They are designed to be read multiple times. As I have aged, I have learned something new every time I read them. I'm impressed that you are an MD with a medical career who is nevertheless interested in studying philosophy in your spare time. Although I myself never excelled in scientific matters, one of the top contributors to this group, Randal Samstag, is a civil engineer by trade (semi-retired now, as I understand it).
And please don't hesitate to ask whenever you have questions. We may or may not have answers, but it may be more important to know the right questions than to think one has all the answers.
It's past midnight on this side of the globe, so I'm going to sign off for now.
Oops! I thought you were referring to the book https://www.amazon.com/Strauss-Straus...Thank you for the references.
I was educated mainly in the US and in Europe, so my English is a bit better than my Korean (which isn't much) but I have no knowledge of Greek. I read both the Desmond Lee and Christopher Rowe's versions of Penguin's Republic. However, I seem to have misread them or am no longer sure of what I read after reading Karl Popper's comments on Plato (Perhaps I misread Popper as well).
We seem to be influenced by political and ethical issues no matter what our profession or major is. I'm increasingly feeling the consequences of our choices and beliefs, especially in a country divided by and teeming with ideological conflicts. That is why I'm struggling with philosophy at this late (perhaps not too late) period in my life. :-) Bye for now. I'm off to read the topics you referred to.
Mod
Probably the best translation of Plato's Republic is that of Allan Bloom: see here. I disagree with some (perhaps much) of Bloom's commentary in The Closing of the American Mind, but that does not detract from his abilities as a translator. Another translation of The Republic that is probably pretty good is Joe Sachs's translation. Both Bloom and Sachs make a good-faith effort to follow Straussian translation principles of extreme fidelity to the original text.
We have a separate topic on Karl Popper. Popper wrote at the end of World War II, when he was dismayed by the rise of totalitarian states of the Left (Soviet Union) and Right (Nazi Germany). He read Plato through that lens. Leo Strauss always taught that Plato's Republic was not intended as a practical possibility but only as a discussion of the nature of political reality. For example, the character of Socrates in that dialogue points out that the ideal Republic can only exist in speech; it would never, for a number of reasons, be adopted in reality. That said, there are features of the Republic that have been appropriated by totalitarians. More problematic, in my view, is Plato's Laws, which contains many authoritarian elements. I was rereading the Laws when I got sidetracked by deciding to write a book about the US electoral college late last year. I will probably return to that study after my electoral college book is completed and published (sometime this year).
Plato was far from being a totalitarian in his actual political endeavors: see my 1971 Master's Essay "The Teaching of Plato's Seventh Letter," which also discusses the Republic and other Platonic dialogues. The question of the Republic is "What is justice?" That dialogue, properly understood, is full of wise observations about human nature and politics. Probably the best interpretation of the Republic can be found in chapter 2 of Leo Strauss's The City and Man. An abbreviated version of that essay is found in the History of Political Philosophy, edited by Leo Strauss and Joseph Cropsey.
I should add, with reference to the Seventh Letter that it was fashionable during the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries to claim that the Seventh Letter and other letters included since antiquity in the Platonic canon were not genuine, i.e. not written by Plato. Strauss and most contemporary scholars take the position that the Seventh Letter, especially, was very probably written by Plato.
Borum wrote: "We seem to be influenced by political and ethical issues no matter what our profession or major is. I'm increasingly feeling the consequences of our choices and beliefs, especially in a country divided by and teeming with ideological conflicts. That is why I'm struggling with philosophy at this late (perhaps not too late) period in my life. :-) Bye for now. I'm off to read the topics you referred to. "
This last paragraph of your post reminds me of the first paragraph of Strauss's City and Man (1964): "It is not self-forgetting and pain-loving antiquarianism nor self-forgetting and intoxicating romanticism which induces us to turn with passionate interest, with unqualified willingness to learn, toward the political thought of classical antiquity. We are impelled to do so by the crisis of our time, the crisis of the West."
Strauss said he could not write about Eastern philosophy because he didn't know the languages in which that philosophy was written. Having an intimate knowledge of German (his first language), Hebrew, English, Greek, Latin, and French, and at least a reading knowledge of Italian and Arabic—together with the philosophical and historical works written in those languages—was, evidently, as much as he could accomplish in one lifetime.
I believe I can speak for most of us in this Goodreads group that we are quite concerned with the situation in South Korea, where your immediate neighbor, North Korea, is ruled by an evident psychopath with nuclear weapons and a huge conventional army. We are also aware of the recent impeachment and removal of your former president. The current president of the United States may, before too long, follow a similar political trajectory. I wish we had someone more rational than Donald Trump in charge, but, unfortunately, we don't. We can only hope that his more rational and knowledgeable foreign policy advisors will inform US policy toward North Korea and that, somehow, catastrophe can be avoided.
Mod
Welcome to the group, David. I see from your Goodreads reading list that you have already read a number of important philosophical and historical works.
Alan (Moderator)
Alan wrote: "Borum wrote: "I read both the Desmond Lee and Christopher Rowe's versions of Penguin's Republic. However, I seem to have misread them or am no longer sure of what I read after reading Karl Popper's..."Yes, crisis of our time, crisis of the East AND West.. Sigh...
It seems that we all have our lot of leaders with neither reason nor remorse..
Hello everyone, I'm a high school student who's interested in epistemology, economics, political economy, history of economic thought and political philosophy. I'm here to improve my knowledge in these areas.
Mod
Welcome to this group, Özgün.
Alan (Moderator)
Hello, Alan, my name is Fleener E. Cophy,I am currently a Community College student at Florida Southwestern State College. As a first-time college student trying to do well and hopefully transfer to a university. Politics and philosophy have always been a major interest of mine. My hopes of joining this group are so that I could learn more.
Are there any courses you would recommend I take?
Thank you
Mod
I am currently a Community College student at Florida Southwestern State College. As a first-time college student trying to do well and hopefully transfer..."
Welcome, Fleener, to this group. Although your college may have core requirements for the first year or two, I would, to the extent you can elect them, take courses in history and, if available, government. If, however, the political science courses involve a great deal of statistical analysis, you may wish to avoid these for now unless you already have a background in statistics. I'm thinking more along the traditional lines of an American government course. You might also take one or more philosophy courses, though you should evaluate in advance whether available philosophy courses are something in which you would be interested. The first couple of years of college are usually oriented on providing a firm basis for more advanced studies later. I would keep that in mind as you choose courses.
I wish you the best in your studies!
Mod
Deb is currently studying for the LSAT and plans to become a lawyer.
Hey! Ambuj, 21, from India.I started reading Political Philosophy since two months. I have majored in Electrical Engg, IIT Delhi, and would like to explore this discipline. I hope it will be fun here.
Mod
I started reading Political Philosophy since two months. I have majored in Electrical Engg, IIT Delhi, and would like to explore this discipline. I hope it will be fun h..."
Welcome, Ambuj, to this group.
Alan
(Moderator)
Alan wrote: "I created this group in order to discuss the enduring questions of political and ethical philosophy. Anyone can join and continue in this group as long as they abide by the few rules of philosophic..."Hello Alan, thank you for the tips. I'm not familiar with Goodreads so this was very helpful. I've taught English since college, but have just branched off into SOSE (Studies of Society and Environment). Political Philosophy is becoming more popular, but there are still very few teachers prepared to tackle the subject (that I know of). I'm here to learn as much as possible, so that I can simplify and break down all these concepts for students and colleagues.
Mod
Welcome to this group, Kayley, You have a very interesting international background, and I wish you well in all your endeavors. Although I don't have time at my advanced age to read twenty-first-century fiction, your novel appears to be quite relevant to our times, and other group members might be interested in reading it. Please feel free to post something about it in the Political Philosophy and Ethics in Fictional Works and/or the Publications of Group Members topics.
Michael R D James(lecturer and author) born in South Africa, educated at Exeter(B.ed) and Birmingham Univerisity(B.A, M.A.-- Philosophy) in England.Lived in Sweden for 38 years where he took his doctorate in Kantian Philosophy at Uppsala University. First novel published now in November is entitled "The World explored, the World Suffered: the Exeter lectures". https://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=nb_sb_...
My novel attempts to situate Philosophy in an everyday dramatic setting and will hopefully stimulate interest in the subject for those with exploring minds.
Is currently lecturing at an International Humanistic boarding school in Sigtuna, Sweden.(Subjects: Philosophy, Psychology, Theory of Knowledge) Was the debating Manager for Swedish schools teams in the World Schools Debating Competitions between 2008 -2013.
Blog address: michaelrdjames.org
Mod
Congratulations on the recent publication of your book The World Explored. It is available for US customers on Amazon.com here.
Again, welcome to this group. You have an interesting background, including but not limited to formal debate (I was a debater in high school and learned a great deal about critical thinking as a result of that experience). Please don't hesitate to comment in various topics in this group as you deem appropriate.
Alan
Mod
Welcome, Derek, to this group, and congratulations on the publication of your book. Please feel free to put a description of your book in the Publications of Group Members topic.
It seems like our little Goodreads group is growing leaps and bounds ! That’s great as I can attest that as a newcomer myself , over the past few years I have deepened and widened my knowledge , understanding and appreciation for political philosophy in general and the great and infamous writers that have been introduced to me by Alan, Randall and others. To our most recent members , climb on board and explore and don’t be reticent about chiming in - we all can learn from the perspectives of others which in our current cultural and political climate is a welcome respite from the madness outside.
Greetings, my name is Mike Takac, I enjoyed a rewarding career in the technology and scientific fields (Bell Laboratories, IBM), and in the fall season of my life (aka retired) decided to explore political philosophy, ethics, economics, the rule of law and currently studying constitutional law at Stanford University. I found during this phase in life, if you want to learn something new, write a book about it—the science of rights (http://www.bookdaily.com/book/3341166...). I enjoy riding the pedagogic waves of nature. Best regards!
Welcome Mike, my name is Cary Giese. I also had a Bell System career operations and then in International Business Development. My interest are history, political philosophy, technology, and science. I'm primarily thinking and reading about the implications of our rapidly changing technology in genetics, IA, nuclear, social networks, etcWelcome!
Cary wrote: "Welcome Mike, my name is Cary Giese. I also had a Bell System career operations and then in International Business Development. My interest are history, political philosophy, technology, and scienc..."Thank you Gary for the warm welcome.
Regards!
Hello everybody, I’m an Egyptian pharmacist entrepreneur living in Germany highly interested in business, economics, philosophy and political history. I have been invited to the group and I’m so pleased to contribute in such a decent discussion. Unfortunately I didn’t dedicate enough time to read about politics and philosophy, but I’m always not losing the chance to acknowledge all what comes across, therefore I find this group really fitting to my interest.
Mod
Welcome to the group, Ahmed.
Hi everyone. My name is Robert and I'm an avid reader of philosophy books in particular Stoicism and Ancient Greek Philosophy. I have a BA from Clemson University and a Masters of Library & Information Science (MLIS) from the University of South Carolina. Needless to say I love to read and have worked at libraries and institutions that require information organization and retrieval needs (e.g local government institutions, HR departments) throughout my life. I also have several books out on Amazon that I've written and published on Philosophy and Stoicism. Interested members can check out my books at https://www.amazon.com/Robert-Woolsto... ---- Please contact me at woolstonrobert@gmail.com if you'd like to receive a complimentary copy of any of my philosophy books to read. review and leave a star rating on Amazon.
Mod
Welcome, Robert, to the group. Although I personally don't have time to read any of your several published books right now, I am sure that some of our group members will be interested in doing so.
Hello everyone. My name is Athena and currently I am an MSc graduate student in the field of atmospheric sciences and remote sensing. I always had a keen interest in philosophy and history and lately, I discover my interest in political and moral philosophy.I look forward to participating in the discussions of the group.
Mod
Welcome, Athene, to the group!
Greetings - My name is Connor, I'm in my mid 40's and currently working in tech, which is what led me to drop out of a PhD program in Continental Philosophy before my comps in the late 90's. Applied ethics was one of my longtime interests as I taught or TA'd Medical Ethics for 4 years. I offered Computer and Information Ethics for the first time at that university as well. Continental Philospohy and applied / professional ethics may seem like an odd mix, but it's doable!My current interests lie in the political, social and ethical aspects of technology and information.
Mod
Welcome to this group, Connor.
Greetings, Group. My name is Steven Lubliner. I'm an attorney in northern California who handles court-appointed criminal appeals and habeas corpus cases in state and federal court. I went to law school at Hastings College of the Law in San Francisco after getting a BA in English at UC Berkeley.Time permitting, I'm also a writer and local actor. I have published a political satire, Threeway, that I will discuss in the member publications thread. I once finished second in The New Yorker's weekly cartoon caption contest. (It was rigged.)
I don't have a trollish, flame-throwing, cable news persona, so I was definitely attracted by the rules of the group. I hope to flex some long neglected philosophical and jurisprudential muscles. Good to be here.
Mod
Welcome to this group, Steven. You have an interesting background.
Dear Steven,Should you wish to flex your insights into 'the just' and ontology, I might mention the Kafka group where I'm hoping to lead a discussion into Kafka's central themes which are pivotal - consciousness of the human predicament in this age....including such things as torture (Penal Colony), Authenticity and spiritual underpinnings....
I'm hoping that my newly published transl:
will raise awareness in our dismal times....
Phillip wrote: "Dear Steven,Should you wish to flex your insights into 'the just' and ontology, I might mention the Kafka group where I'm hoping to lead a discussion into Kafka's central themes which are pivotal ..."
Thanks. I'll check it out.
I am also, Alan. Rather go by my screen name, Firestorm Omega. Radical Libertarian who has never voted, now on a spiritual journey. Atheist converting to Paganism and/or new-spirituality. Sagittarius is known for prophets and philosophers but also may launch flaming arrows.
Mod
Welcome to the group. You will probably find some food for thought here that is somewhat different from your current interests, but we allow everyone who complies with the rules posted on the home page of the group.
Hi All,My name is Madhu Mohan Nelemane. Call me Madhu for short. All these days I have been searching for people who would be interested in having rational conversations on the philosophical aspects of life, politics and society. My success rate was near to zero. I am an Engineer by profession and love science by default. I believe that both science and philosophy thrive on the same fundamental basis which is the capability of the human mind to ask questions and find answers. I was born and brought up in a developing country which is a birth place of various philosophies and wisdom but has now transformed into a society at race for an unending quest for material wealth and greed. I am into philosophy not because of my education but because my interest and the challenges it offers to my mind and exercises it to think deeply and profoundly. So, please excuse me if I am unable to use the terminologies which are familiar to academic philosophers.
Cheers,
Madhu
Mod
My name is Madhu Mohan Nelemane. Call me Madhu for short. All these days I have been searching for people who would be interested in having rational conversations on the philosophical aspec..."
Welcome to this group, Madhu. We don't use a lot of academic terminology here, mainly because the focus of the group is on ethical and political philosophy as distinguished from metaphysics, analytic philosophy, and so forth.
Hello, everyone. My name is Mahesh Prabhu author of four books. I'm here to connect with people to share and learn from people. My latest book is Kautilya: Understanding the Colossal Genius.
Mod
Welcome to the group, Mahesh.
Hello - I am trying to make reading a daily habit, something I've been wanting to do for a while. I have found myself sucked into a lot of the political topics and enjoy listening to people discuss philosophy. I saw some book recommendations in the some discussions so thought I'd join and see if I could participate and find some new books to read.
Mod
Welcome, Don, to the group.
Andrew wrote: "Well, I'm new. Hello!My research interests are largely in mathematics (minimal surfaces & large cardinals)/ theology, but I've published in philosophy too. I'm interested in all major areas of ph..."
Welcome, Andrew.
Hello everyone,I'm new to the group and looking to get ideas or be pointed to literature that I can add to my list of books to read. I have always been into politics from a news/voter perspective but only recently decided to actually start reading about the topic and try to structure my ideas and reasoning. I try to alternate between philosophical or political classics and modern political non-fiction.
As a progressive/liberal and rhine capitalist that tries to confront his ideas with other points of view my main interests are with libertarianism, conservatism (in all forms) and political extremism (from both ends of the spectrum).
I have also recently started writing reviews to the books I read which I find helps reflect on the topics at hand.
Any advice is welcome specifically with classic conservative literature: the must reads.
Mod
I'm new to the group and looking to get ideas or be pointed to literature that I can add to my list of books to read. I have always been into politics from a news/voter perspective ..."
Welcome to this group, Richard. You appear to have an open and inquisitive mind, which we welcome. And it's always good for those of us who are Americans to see another perspective.
Political Philosophy and Ethics
Books mentioned in this topic
A Brief History of Philosophy: From Socrates to Derrida (other topics)A History of Western Philosophy (other topics)
An Economy of Want (other topics)
Kafka Unleashed: Stories, Dreams & Visions (other topics)
Threeway: A Short Novel for a Long Season (other topics)
More...
Authors mentioned in this topic
Seneca (other topics)Augustine of Hippo (other topics)
Georgina T. (other topics)
In particular I would like to see the use of sortition (random selection of office holders) enter the wider public agenda.
Is this discussion group the place for me?