Christian Theological/Philosophical Book Club discussion
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When does a Mormon or J.W. get or lose their salvation?
Robert wrote: "Derrick wrote: "How it Robert almost a Calvinist Rod? From what I am understanding your views on Predestination as well as the Elect are far more aligned with Calvinism than Roberts..."I am not a..."
I know your not a Calvinist Robert, your views are far from Calvinism, I'm asking Rod why he classified you as a "Almost Calvinist."
Derrick wrote: "I know your not a Calvinist Robert, your views are far from Calvinism, I'm asking Rod why he classified you as a "Almost Calvinist." ...."Thanks... I just wanted to be clear. Sometimes in "typing" actual meanings are not always clear.
Robert keeps posting all these Calvinistic verses. He just hasn't connected the dots yet. Possibly soon... he's pretty stubborn though. Thankfully that's the best way to enter God's election with a fuller appreciation.
"The whole elect world..."That's not Biblical in any translation. Most of the world is going to hell.
Jesus sacrifice was sufficient- but not applicable. People of all tribes and nations (and Kings) will be elect. But not ALL.
Rod wrote: "Robert keeps posting all these Calvinistic verses. He just hasn't connected the dots yet. Possibly soon... he's pretty stubborn though. Thankfully that's the best way to enter God's election with a..."My response: EIESEGESIS Rod. You read INTO them what you WANT them to say.
Rod wrote: ""The whole elect world..." That's not Biblical in any translation. Most of the world is going to hell. Jesus sacrifice was sufficient- but not applicable. People of all tribes and nations (and K..."My response: ALMOST BIBLICAL Rod! You are getting close to dropping your "Calvin glasses" and just believing what the Bible actually says.
Most Calvinists I have encountered say that Jesus ONLY DIED for the elect... so you are getting closer to the truth.
Too bad you cling to that which is NOT in the Bible... this is what the Bible actually says...
1 John 2:2 - "And he IS the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world ."
God says that the Blood of Jesus IS applicable for the WHOLE WORLD!
1 John is speaking TO Christians. The world is Only those who are not Christians. Most won't be saved of course.
Rod wrote: "1 John is speaking TO Christians. The world is Only those who are not Christians. Most won't be saved of course."God says...
1 John 2:2 - "And he IS the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world ."
God says that the Blood of Jesus IS applicable for the WHOLE WORLD!
Sorry Rod... the WHOLE WORLD is NOT part of the world... it is the WHOLE WORLD.
You're not thinking Robert - you're just shouting out Bible verses. You know there is THE elect, you know most people are going to hell, you know that Jesus doesn't need to try harder to convince people to believe. You know that God's purpose will succeed exactly.
Think boy Think.
Rod wrote: "You're not thinking Robert - you're just shouting out Bible verses.."My response: Your the one not thinking. You are REJECTING Bible verses.
Rod wrote: "You know there is THE elect, you know most people are going to hell, you know that Jesus doesn't need to try harder to convince people to believe. You know that God's purpose will succeed exactly...."My response: What I KNOW is that God is NOT a liar...
1 John 2:2 - "And he IS the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world ."
Titus 2:11 - "For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people ."
...for the sake of the faith of God's elect.All people do not get salvation. Is your God not trying hard enough to convince people? Mine has succeeded perfectly. Jesus Kingdom will be full.
Thus saith the Lord...1 John 2:2 - "And he IS the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world ."
Titus 2:11 - "For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people ."
Rod wrote: "...for the sake of the faith of God's elect.All people do not get salvation. Is your God not trying hard enough to convince people? Mine has succeeded perfectly. Jesus Kingdom will be full."
And how do you reconcile your theorem with this verse?:
The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, NOT WILLING that ANY should perish but that ALL should come to repentance.
Don't gloss this over, Rod. You seem to be insisting that God's will is always perfectly carried out, and is "irresistible." This verse presents you with a problem. It presents no interpretive problem for me. The answer is certainly not universalism.
Yes Ned - ALL of the elect will come to salvation and repentance. It's obvious through the scriptures that most of the world won't. None of God's children will perish. Isn't that obvious???The Bible is written for the elect. It's meaningless confusion to the rest of the world. Paul even addresses this in his letters.
Robert, 1st John and Titus aren't written to/for all people - but to the saints. You need to read them in their entirety: don't make doctrine out of single verses. (Wish I had a dollar for every time I had to say this for you). But you just aren't getting it.
Rod wrote: "Yes Ned - ALL of the elect will come to salvation and repentance. It's obvious through the scriptures that most of the world won't. None of God's children will perish. Isn't that obvious???The Bi..."
Of course all of the elect will be saved... because God FOREKNEW that they would... just like He says...
1 Peter 1:2 - "Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father..."
God KNOWS EVERYTHING!
Rod wrote: "Robert, 1st John and Titus aren't written to/for all people - but to the saints. You need to read them in their entirety: don't make doctrine out of single verses. (Wish I had a dollar for every ..."
Thus saith the Lord...
1 John 2:2 - "And he IS the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world ."
Titus 2:11 - "For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people ."
Rod wrote: "Robert, 1st John and Titus aren't written to/for all people - but to the saints. You need to read them in their entirety: don't make doctrine out of single verses. (Wish I had a dollar for every ..."Rod, don't make doctrines out of your OPINIONS.
QUOTE some BIBLE once in a while... if you have any Scripture that says Jesus ONLY DIED FOR THE ELECT.
Rod,I see. You simply add words that are not there, and tada! It's magic. Using this interpretive method you can make the bible say anything you please. I believe that if God wanted to limit his language to "the elect" He is and was perfectly capable of inserting those plain words on his own.
Ned wrote: "Rod,I see. You simply add words that are not there, and tada! It's magic. Using this interpretive method you can make the bible say anything you please. I believe that if God wanted to limit his ..."
Very well stated Ned!
I just checked more than a dozen bible translations from the KJV on. Not one comes even close to changing the words of scripture to limit them to "the elect" OR to the specific group to whom Peter was writing. Every one translates the scripture to refer to "all men," which is the natural reading of the text. If there were warrant to change the text this way, surely some scholar would have done so."The Lord is not being slow in doing what he promised—the way some people understand slowness. But God is being patient with you. He doesn’t want anyone to be lost. He wants everyone to change their ways and stop sinning." ERV
One critic asks "Who is God being patient with?"Obviously it is YOU and ME, as the text plainly states. However, if one interprets the verse as applying only to "the elect" then it necessarily follows that His patience must apply not to "the elect" but to HIMSELF, since HE is the one who is delaying moving the heart of the elect person. It makes the verse utterly nonsensical. God has no reason or need to be patient with HIMSELF.
Guys - psychopaths and those born evil are separate from "the elect" and can never even entertain the Kingdom of God. The remaining elect are on the broad road, but must take one more step to get through the narrow gate. They'll get a subtle invitation from the "Master", but must make the conscious choice to respond. The notion that the elect can't choose to reject Jesus is faulty. Once they FULLY accept the gift of salvation, they can never lose it, but half-hearted attempts at piety or nonacceptance of Jesus' divinity will get them nothing but hell.
We're all born evil.We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to our own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all.
“None is righteous, no, not one;
no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one.”
Ned - never trust scholars : you know better than that.
The entire point of creation is God being patient with the coming Kingdom of His Sin. Some people are pushed away by the Bible- and God draws others to himself with it. In His time.
We all know the parables were made to confuse most. Jesus even says so. As is the rest of scripture. For God's glory and choice.
Ned: you're being applauded by Robert - doesn't that scare the crap out of you???
Rod wrote: "Ned - never trust scholars : you know better than that."Rod, that is a dumb thing to say. If you are not a scholar yourself... you would NOT have a reliable Bible that you could read in English.
It takes SCHOLARS to properly translate the Bible.
Do you read Greek, Hebrew, and the other Bible languages?
Rod wrote: "Ned: you're being applauded by Robert - doesn't that scare the crap out of you??? ..."At least his posts are being acknowledged by someone who LOVES God enough to QUOTE God!
Rod wrote: "Ned - never trust scholars : you know better than that."Genetic fallacy.
Ned: you're being applauded by Robert - doesn't that scare the crap out of you???
Ditto.
I personally don't have the expertise to translate original languages, therefore trusting scholars, translators, archaeologists, and the like is my only option. And you? Can you read the Dead Sea scrolls?
It is with mankind that He is patient. With human sin, depravity, and rebellion. God patiently waits for people to answer his call and come to repentance. That is the whole point. One day His patience will end. That is the warning.
Ezekiel 3:18-19New American Standard Bible (NASB)
18 When I say to the wicked, ‘You will surely die,’ and you do not warn him or speak out to warn the wicked from his wicked way that he may live, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity, but his blood I will require at your hand. 19 Yet if you have warned the wicked and he does not turn from his wickedness or from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but you have delivered yourself.
You are correct that "Some people are pushed away by the Bible- and God draws others to himself with it." What that has to do with God making choices for people I'm not sure. The gospel is an offense and a stumbling block to some and for some it is the power of God unto salvation. The bible says that those who do not come to the light do so because their "deeds are evil" and they do not want them confronted or exposed. So they hate the light. All that comes straight from the human heart. To accept God's offer of salvation or to refuse it.
The doctrine you are apparently hung up on makes God responsible for sin, rebellion, and evil, since you insist that God makes some "non-elect" of His own will.
James 1: 13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted [a]by God”; for God cannot be tempted [b]by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone. 14 But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust.
Ned wrote: "The doctrine you are apparently hung up on makes God responsible for sin, rebellion, and evil, since you insist that God makes some "non-elect" of His own will..."Excellent point!
God made us all Free sinners. There are none good.Yet God chooses to save some. Are there good people who don't need saving??? Do people whip up their own faith? If their natures are mostly good can they then choose salvation? Can they later change their choice? How far does freedom go?
We're angels free to rebel? Yet no longer are? What changed? Why didn't they all rebel? Aren't they equal? Do some need more time or a better sales pitch?
Rod wrote: "God made us all Free sinners. There are none good. Yet God chooses to save some. Are there good people who don't need saving??? Do people whip up their own faith? If their natures are mostly good ..."Another post with NO Scripture.
Why? Are there NONE that clearly state your opinions?
Also Rod, I have noticed that when you are addressed on a specific topic, you often avoid follow up. For example......you bad-mouthed "scholars"
...it was pointed out that without "scholars" you would have no Bible that you could read
...then you went silent on your bad-mouthing of "scholars"
You do this with many topics.
Rod wrote: "God made us all Free sinners. There are none good.Yet God chooses to save some. Are there good people who don't need saving??? Do people whip up their own faith? If their natures are mostly good ..."
The criticism of the Arminian position is that it makes salvation all of man's will. However, this is a straw man. There is nothing actually biblically inconsistent about man choosing to receive God's salvation. The bible says it is the Holy Spirit that convicts THE WORLD concerning sin, righteousness, and judgment. Obviously this makes God the first and main actor in every salvation experience. One cannot "receive" something unless it is first offered. Neither can one "reject" what is not offered.
The problem with Calvinist doctrine lies with "IRRESISTIBLE" grace. I don't know where this comes from, but as common grace applies to all humans (it rains on the just and the unjust,) if God's grace were in fact "irresistible" then all would be saved. Since that does not happen, it is obvious that God's grace in not "irresistible" by men, but is in fact resisted by most on a continual basis. God's grace is exhibited any time anyone is exposed to TRUTH. God Himself is truth. God's grace is resisted any time anyone rejects or suppresses the TRUTH.
Romans 1 puts all responsibility for rejecting God's truth on MEN, not GOD.
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth [a]in unrighteousness, 19 because that which is known about God is evident [b]within them; for God made it evident to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. 21 For even though they knew God, they did not [c]honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
You ask why people don't reject God 1,000 years down the road. The answer is that, when we get to heaven, the sanctification process that begins the moment we are saved is completed by God and made perfect upon our entrance into His presence. Our permanent, complete, future sanctification is guaranteed and based upon the rebirth that occurs in this life. It does not happen against our will but in accordance with it since no Christian desires to keep sinning. I can only speculate, since we are not told, but a similar thing apparently happened with the angels who were faithful to God and refused to rebel.
Everything that I have presented here is a biblically holistic, consistent interpretation that requires no mental gymnastics, parsing of the word, evasion, or creative interpretation to get the result I want. I merely read what the bible says.
Pastor John Macarthur on the doctrine of sanctification:"Now there is a third aspect of sanctification you need to understand, we'll call it ultimate sanctification...ultimate. It takes a look at sanctification in another way. Ultimate sanctification is a future aspect. Positional sanctification was past, ultimate is future. It is established at our glorification. The first was established at our justification. This at our glorification. The moment we are translated out of this world into the presence of God, we enter into ultimate sanctification. That's...that's when we lose this vile flesh, this unredeemed fallen humanness and we are absolutely sanctified body and soul and spirit, in every part. That is when this mortal puts on immortality, when this corruptible puts on incorruption, according to 1 Corinthians 15:52 to 54. That is when, to borrow the words of the Apostle Paul in Philippians 3:21, "God will transform the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of His glory." That's when we become like Christ for we see Him as He is. That's at that glorious moment when we are presented as a bride without spot and without blemish, glorious in holiness, to our bridegroom. That's future.
So, we already have the past-positional sanctification. We are guaranteed the future-ultimate sanctification. That leaves us with the second one, the middle one, experiential sanctification. And that's where we live, folks, right now. We are in between the two. The first is fixed, inviolable, permanent, and eternal. We will always bear the righteousness of Christ, that is an eternal gift. You cannot lose that. The second is fixed and inviolable, we will be glorified, we will enter in to ultimate sanctification...the one in the middle fluctuates.
It would not be wrong to say then that we are in the process as Christians of the coming what we really are and what we shall be. What we are is sanctified. What we shall be is sanctified. And in the middle we're trying to really be sanctified, we're trying to live up to what we are in position and what we will be ultimately. "
MacArthur and I are in full agreement- I was an Arminian lazy bible reader until I heard 100's of John MacArthur's podcasts a decade ago.Ned you quote him - but disagree with him???
Ned, I'm not really asking questions- I have almost all of my answers. I just want to see how far YOUR thinking goes? Hopefully someone else can learn from our conversations.
Most Christians don't realize that their general theology doesn't last 5 minutes with atheists and Muslims. Smart ones anyway.
Liberals and Arminians are doomed before they even begin. And charismatics are too silly to even attempt a debate.
Rod wrote: "MacArthur and I are in full agreement- I was an Arminian lazy bible reader until I heard 100's of John MacArthur's podcasts a decade ago. Ned you quote him - but disagree with him???"Now, you almost NEVER quote the Bible... let alone read it.
I agree you are not lazy now... it takes all kinds of MENTAL GYMNASTICS to make the clear Word of God say the exact opposite of what it really says.
You are a gymnast!
Rod wrote: "Liberals and Arminians are doomed before they even begin. And charismatics are too silly to even attempt a debate. ..."Now that is SADLY FUNNY coming from a guy who almost NEVER actually QUOTES the Bible.
Rod wrote: "MacArthur and I are in full agreement- I was an Arminian lazy bible reader until I heard 100's of John MacArthur's podcasts a decade ago.Ned you quote him - but disagree with him???"
I have great, great respect for John MacArthur. I may not agree with him 100%, but the few issues we disagree on are not worth dividing over. I will note that he has said some contradictory things with regard to free will, and he has said the very same thing I have said: That the tension between God's sovereignty and man's will is ultimately an inexplicable mystery. I also do not know whether John MacArthur is an actual "five point Calvinist." (I just looked this up and it appears that he is.)
Ned wrote: "I also do not know whether John MacArthur is an actual "five point Calvinist." ..."God is NOT a five point Calvinist. The unconditional election is a difficult one for God, since He places a CONDITION upon Himself for election...
1 Peter 1:2 - "Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father..."
God Himself says that His election is based on His foreknowledge... NOT on any whimsy!
BTW, Rod, if you have actually read and pondered everything I have said, it should strike you that I am anything but a "lazy bible reader." Certainly not one who allows third-party systematic theology to supersede the bible itself. Everything I read or ponder gets tested in light of scripture.
Rod wrote: "MacArthur and I are in full agreement- I was an Arminian lazy bible reader until I heard 100's of John MacArthur's podcasts a decade ago.Ned you quote him - but disagree with him???"
My response: Thanks for your admission of eisegesis Rod!
* You used to read the Bible
* Now you listen to John MacArthur instead...
I am not surprised! Saddened, but not surprised. :-(
I didn't say that you "Ned" were a lady Bible reader. I said that I was. Although most Arminian's I deal with are big on select Bible verses -- yet ignore scripture as a whole. Some even hate, and are embarrassed, by the God of the Old Testament. They also ignore portions of the New Testament that make them uncomfortable. They turn those moments into rich metaphors. N.T. Wright is famous for this.
Yep, John MacArthur and I agree almost fully (2or 3 little side issues are up for grabs). I think the problem is you don't jump to quick conclusions when hearing MacArthur out - while people do that daily with me. Of course- I gave short posts and John writes large books.
Internet people have short emotional attention spans. So I must always comment with this in mind.
Robert - please give me all the possible definitions for the term Foreknowledge. It does have a few applications. Sorry to make you think.
Rod wrote: "Robert - please give me all the possible definitions for the term Foreknowledge. It does have a few applications. Sorry to make you think."My response: Think???? That would be you who does not think... or you think that your opinions are superior to the Bible... as you almost never QUOTE IT.
Rom 8:29 - "For whom he did
foreknow
, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren."Foreknow = Strong's G4267 - proginōskō - "προγινώσκω proginṓskō, prog-in-oce'-ko; from G4253 and G1097; to know beforehand, i.e. foresee"
_______________
Here are verses that uses this same word...
Act 26:5 - "Which knew me from the beginning , if they would testify, that after the most straitest sect of our religion I lived a Pharisee."
2Pe 3:17 - "Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before , beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness."
I am not a Calvinist (or an Arminianist). I believe exactly what the Bible says.
For example, I believe this...
1 John 2:2 - "And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world ."
Rod on the other hand does NOT believe what the Bible actually says and is forced to ADD his opinions to it. The following is what Rod would say this verse means...
1 John 2:2 - "And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole [ELECT] world ."
As for me... God did NOT accidentally OMIT any words... and He meant exactly what He said.