Rebecca
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My husband is a murder- No problem according to second Mrs. De Winter
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Some great discussions on one of the greatest books of all time. Probably isn't anything new I can add to this thread that hasn't already been hashed back and forth.I was very fortunate to see an amazing stage adaption of this book many years back. Definitely the most enjoyable play I have ever seen.
The fact that people have so many varied opinions on the book shows how fantastic it is. I finished it yesterday and it's one of the best if not the best book I've read all year... Du Maurier is a genius. I can hardly think about anything else :)I haven't yet seen anyone mention that Rebecca is a Gothic novel. I think this is an important point because it's yet another aspect to analyzing the book and the characters. For me, one of the most horrifying scenes in the book is when Max confesses to the murder of Rebecca...and then starts kissing (I rather think "sexually assaulting") our dear sweet narrator! I had such a visceral reaction to it, it made my skin crawl. And almost just as bad: "None of the things that he had told me mattered to me at all. I clung to one thing only, and repeated it to myself, over and over again. Maxim did not love Rebecca. He had never loved her, never, never." It's horrific! She's glorying in, reveling, basking in the fact that 1) he was so so so unhappy with Rebecca, for DECADES, that 2) he f*@$ing killed his wife!!! It fits in well with other Gothic novels I’ve read, where they are both horror stories and love stories. Shirley Jackson’s We Have Always Lived in the Castle is a Gothic novel where there is no romantic storyline, but which gives me a very strong "love story" feeling nonetheless, a horrible twisted insular isolated sort of obsession. The Picture of Dorian Gray includes this as well, and even Frankenstein who loves his ambition. These stories do not have romantic love plots, but they deal with a certain special strong emotional investment we might call "love." Wuthering Heights is another Gothic "romance" that, for me personally, contains very strong horror elements. (One of the creepiest things about it is that people hold it up as a love story when there is just so much abuse.) I read Rebecca hoping for suspense and creepy-crawly psychological thriller aspects and I can say I was not disappointed.
There is no justification, no excuse for what Max did. I believe very strongly that saying "oh but he was provoked" is just a way of victim blaming. Whether or not Max or any abuser was provoked (and in this case, he obviously and purposefully was), they are responsible for their actions. No matter how provoked, people have an obligation not to murder each other. But Rebecca is the "monstrous other" in this Gothic tale, someone who epitomizes evil. She knew Max had moods and she had been warned and she knew she was dying and had told Mrs. Danvers herself that she wanted a quick death. When Max says "It doesn’t make for sanity, does it, living with the devil,” he’s not merely expressing his distaste for Rebecca; in the Gothic convention, Rebecca is the villain--"the epitome of evil," someone fallen from grace (http://cai.ucdavis.edu/waters-sites/g...). Even Mrs. Danvers who loved her described her as winking "like the devil" after engaging in sexually precocious behavior at the age of 12. And it is this Gothic convention--the evil Rebecca, fallen from grace through adultery and lies and broken promises and "things I shall never repeat to a living soul," to use Max’s phrase, that allows readers (even me, though I detest domestic violence) to hope that Max is acquitted of his crime. However Max doesn’t get away with it completely; sure, he doesn’t go to prison, but he loses Manderley--the one thing he loves, the one thing he would sacrifice anything for--and by the description from the beginning of the book, his and the narrator’s lives together I would not describe them as "happy" or satisfied or even content at all. Rebecca and her death and his part in it and the resulting loss of Manderley are like a constant, chafing itch...
And of course that’s just one angle, and there are so many more. A rich and satisfying read with so much depth :)
I think Paige has nailed the book beautifully. We find ourselves rooting for the murderer! How many authors could have both pulled that off and left us wondering how we could have felt that way?That is why in the movie they could not let Max be a killer. No killer could go unpunished in a movie in the 40's.
Maria wrote: "Rebecca was a real bitch, that played Maxim like a fiddle! she knew what buttons to press in to making him do whatever she wanted. However, i do not condone his killing, but i think she railled him..."I agree! The second Mrs de Winter is actually very shallow if all she can think about is that Maxim never really loved Rebecca. That's really lame.
Was anyone else rooting for the second Mrs. de Winters to wind up with Frank? I couldn't recall No-name's husband being named in the early chapters that take place in the future, so I kept hoping Maxim would be hanged for KILLING SOMEONE (a woman that he believed was pregnant, no less!) and No-name and Frank would realize that they are two boring-but-agreeable peas in a pod. Having her take control of her life post-Maxim and emerge from the scandal stronger and wiser would have demonstrated some interesting and satisfying character development. I didn't mind the narrator being a doormat, but I definitely didn't buy that her only reaction to Maxim's confession would be relief. I think any woman in the world would always have at the back of her mind "He did it to her, he could do it to me..." Maxim is such a jerk.
Team Frank.
No ho' wants to lose their meal ticket! bwaha ahaa'Murder' is such an ugly word, right? :D
Dana wrote: "Was anyone else rooting for the second Mrs. de Winters to wind up with Frank? I couldn't recall No-name's husband being named in the early chapters that take place in the future, so I kept hoping M..."Yeah, I thought she was going to end up with Frank too. The person she's with at the beginning of the book is never named, I don't even know that it's stated the person is her husband, only that he is a "he." I suppose if you really stretch your imagination it could still be Frank, nothing really rules it out except for the description she gives of his face clouding over, like Maxim's did. I suppose Frank could have fits too, especially since he seems attached to Manderley. But honestly, given how attached to Maxim she was... I think we would've heard about it!
And yes, Maxim is a jerk. It sounds like he and Rebecca were jerks to each other, it's the little ways he's abusive to the narrator that really grate me.
I found myself thinking throughout the entire book that we as readers only "know" anything about Rebecca as hearsay. We hear people in the village talk about her, we learn society gossip, we get plenty of Maxim's side of the story about what a supposedly psycho bitch she was, and we hear Mrs. Danvers worshipful impressions of her.
And really, because the whole story is revealed through the first-person narration of the second Mrs. De Winter, all of our information is filtered twice through others' impressions, often layered over with pretty heavy personal agendas.
I found myself reading it with an eye to devil's advocacy--i've certainly known people who, for example, after a nasty divorce, completely demonized one another and, having been friends with both parties, i saw that neither person was actually the horrid psychopath that the other claimed. I wondered throughout the book whether Rebecca was actually as horrific as Maxim said she was, or whether they were just two people extremely ill-suited to one another, stuck in an arranged marriage which spun out of control.
Excellent point, Rachel! I read the book out loud to my boyfriend and when we got to the part where Maxim tells the narrator that he killed Rebecca, my boyfriend didn't believe a word of what he was saying about her.
Rachel, you made a very valid point: people tend tdeminze the ex-partner, in this case, one that was killed. Maxim could have done that, maybe in order for try to justify what he did.But, if he demonized her so much, why did Mrs Danvers made also a devlish portrait of her, to the 2nd Mrs De Winter? Maybe he was telling the truth, me thinks....
Du Maurier wrote other novels which are worth reading if you didn't get enough gothic/mansion burning/strange people in Rebecca. I enjoyed a stack of them.
Maria wrote: "Rachel, you made a very valid point: people tend tdeminze the ex-partner, in this case, one that was killed. Maxim could have done that, maybe in order for try to justify what he did.But, if he demonized her so much, why did Mrs Danvers made also a devlish portrait of her, to the 2nd Mrs De Winter? Maybe he was telling the truth, me thinks.... "
I do happen to think Maxim was telling the truth about Rebecca, and my boyfriend did by the end of the novel too. It's still really interesting to note that we never actually see Rebecca and as Rachel points out, our view of her is shaped by a double filtering. Yet it is her name that makes the title, and her name that is repeated so much. Even out of sight she is able to control so very much of Maxim's and the narrator's lives, the true reason for the whole story.
Paige, a lot is left out to our imagination about who Rebecca really was. But that is the beauty of the book, i think: you can draw your own conclusions on what really happened.Rebecca still holds control over Manderley, even after her death, that´s why Manderley had to burn - so that her influence could disapear.
Gisela wrote: "Agree, but you need to remember this is the world somewhere between the wars in a totally class-obsessed England. The second Mrs de Winder is totally and utterly stuck in this world, which means h..."I don't think the novel supports the idea that Maxim has the "right" to kill Rebecca. It punishes him in the worst possible way (for him). Like many people of his class at that time, he has been raised to sacrifice his personal desires for the sake of the family estate. So, he marries the "right sort of person", disastrously.
Max does seem to think that he is morally above the law - that is, he has the right to execute her for her "crime", for fathering a bastard on him. But the novel punishes him for it, by taking from him, in recompense, the thing that he does love most in the world - Manderley.
What I find disturbing is not just that the 2nd Mrs de Winter goes along with this view - after all, she could hardly have married him if she did not accept his views regarding his own status - but thatshe interprets the murder in such a completely selfish way. She almost seems to find it erotic...
Silverpiper wrote: "Yes- it was murder but she manipulated her way into getting herself killed. Suicide by husband."that's the point!
I recall Maxim saying that just before he shot Rebecca he felt a queer burning in his brain, and she kept smiling at him as she egged him on. Sounds like he just snapped. And I do believe he felt guilty because the book of poems Rebecca gave him fell open to Hound of Heaven, which he must have read over and over again. I don't think he ever felt that he had a right to kill Rebecca: he kept waiting with dread for the truth to be revealed and he would pay for the crime.And there was another person besides Mrs. Danvers who painted a devilish portrait of Rebecca: the idiot Ben was terrified of her and said she gave you the feeling of a snake.
All in all I was more shocked by the second Mrs. deWinter's reaction to Maxim's revelation that he killed Rebecca than I was by the fact that he shot her. "My heart was as light as a feather; he had never loved Rebecca." Shudder...
yes but since (thank goodness) it's a novel, this is what makes the story so well done.
Heading is a spoiler!
The new wife had very little options other than to support her husband. She was rescued from being a companion of a boorish women. She can live a life of luxury with her rich husband, or she can be put out in the street and struggle through life trying to make ends meet. The companion job she had was rather cushy compared to some other places she could end up. Would that woman take her back? Could she find another rich person looking for a companion? What might she be asked to do for that person? Jane would leave, because she has principals, and I certainly respect her for that. But how many people would make that decision given her prospects in that day and age. Jane had education and a means to support herself.
Silverpiper wrote: "Yes- it was murder but she manipulated her way into getting herself killed. Suicide by husband."Agreed. It's typical of Rebecca, 'suicide by husband' (excellent phrase) with the added satisfaction that she might just get Maxim hanged. At the very least, she delivered a final torment. It's what sadists do. Hence her final smile.
I may be playing devil's advocate, (Rebecca's advocate?), but I think the book can be interpreted on an entirely different level. If one makes the assumption that Maxim for all his charm is just as psychopathic as Rebecca, the book takes on interesting ramifications.We are told that Rebecca makes her suggestion to Maxim five days after the marriage had taken place. Why is that? Let us assume for one moment that he could not consummate the marriage. He feels like killing Rebecca until she comes up with the proposal that they live in a sham marriage. We might even assume that he has led a double life as well. He no longer has to kill her then and there; perhaps he had his own confessions as well. He seems content in keeping up appearances for a long time. I have some other ideas about this and I would love to discuss it with someone else.
Melissa wrote: "I was rather shocked that the second wife had no isse with the fact that her husband was a murdered and then lied to cover it up. Hello! Its like the girl had no ideas or morals for herself. I w..." If one makes the assumption that Maxim for all his charm is just as psychopathic as Rebecca, the book takes on interesting ramifications.We are told that Rebecca made her suggestion to Maxim five days after the marriage had taken place. Why is that? Let us assume for one moment that he could not consummate the marriage. He feels like killing Rebecca until she comes up with the proposal that they live in a sham marriage. We might even assume that he has led a double life as well. He no longer has to kill her then and there; perhaps he had his own confessions as well. He seems content in keeping up appearances for a long time. The second wife does feel frightened in the place where Rebecca and Maxim had had their "arrangement" agreement and was relieved to leave it. There is a lot of evidence throughout the book that indicates that Maxim is very manipulative. Many of his descriptions of Rebecca would apply to him as well.
This is a very interesting angle Ellen. It makes me re-evaluate the entire book.
Love your thoughts Ellen! I definitely agree with you that Maxim is manipulative. The whole book is manipulative. Maxim killed his wife and I feel like we're purposely tricked into "supporting" for him or "rooting" for him. It's so twisted, you know? One of the reasons I love is it that it is so unsettling. And I agree that there's lots of evidence Maxim is also--I'm not sure psychopathic is necessarily the right term--he honestly doesn't seem charming enough to me... maybe narcissistic (I don't know a ton about that though)? Anyway I agree with you that something is not quite right about Maxim and would love to hear more thoughts you have on this matter or on the book in general.
If you think about the beginning of the book where she talks about how she would not mention Manderly because he would get in one of his moods again. It seems like she is scared of him. Is she really scared of upsetting him because she loves him, or is she afraid he will get upset and do something violent?
[Different Ellen than above, who did make some excellent points.]
Aren't we lucky that books end when they do? We don't have to read through the decades to reach the point where the nameless Mrs. DeW. is so tired of Maxim's narcissism and unceasing obligations towards his social class that she finally heaves a teapot at his head and kills him at high tea, twenty or thirty years into the marriage. "Oh, my," I can hear her, "It slipped from my fingers, just like the figurine. Imagine!"
Aren't we lucky that books end when they do? We don't have to read through the decades to reach the point where the nameless Mrs. DeW. is so tired of Maxim's narcissism and unceasing obligations towards his social class that she finally heaves a teapot at his head and kills him at high tea, twenty or thirty years into the marriage. "Oh, my," I can hear her, "It slipped from my fingers, just like the figurine. Imagine!"
oh Different Ellen! that's hilarious!!! she could accidentally spill hot tea on him too...or use a tea towel to muffle his choking on a biscuit.
Micebyliz wrote: "oh Different Ellen! that's hilarious!!! she could accidentally spill hot tea on him too...or use a tea towel to muffle his choking on a biscuit."
Ha! Perhaps the last tea towel with the scrolling "R" embroidered by the nuns in France?
Ha! Perhaps the last tea towel with the scrolling "R" embroidered by the nuns in France?
never drink wine when reading funny responses on Goodreads-- it will go up your nose. thanks so much Different Ellen!!:)
Micebyliz wrote: "never drink wine when reading funny responses on Goodreads-- it will go up your nose. thanks so much Different Ellen!!:)"
Sorry about the wine. I belonged to a French order of nuns, the American branch, but the motherhouse was on the rue du Bac in Paris. We'd sit and do our sewing and mending while someone read from spiritual books. But we'd be mending our habits and doing rolled hems on our veils. The idea of sitting and listening to what we listened to while sewing tiny stitches into sheer undergarments to be worn by floozies all over Europe always gave me the giggles.
Sorry about the wine. I belonged to a French order of nuns, the American branch, but the motherhouse was on the rue du Bac in Paris. We'd sit and do our sewing and mending while someone read from spiritual books. But we'd be mending our habits and doing rolled hems on our veils. The idea of sitting and listening to what we listened to while sewing tiny stitches into sheer undergarments to be worn by floozies all over Europe always gave me the giggles.
That sounds idyllic somehow...i agree i would have had the giggles too. i assure you i could never sew tiny stitches. never learned to sew properly, although i could knit and crochet until arthritis slowed me down. If a floozie wore anything i touched it would have been a costume malfunction :) I am good reader though! i'd be happy to read while others sewed. maybe a little glass of sherry on the side..
Micebyliz wrote: "That sounds idyllic somehow...i agree i would have had the giggles too. i assure you i could never sew tiny stitches. never learned to sew properly, although i could knit and crochet until arthriti..."
Ahahaha! Yeah, between the arthritis and the eyes, I gave up cross stitch. Life's a real...Rebecca, isn't it?
Ahahaha! Yeah, between the arthritis and the eyes, I gave up cross stitch. Life's a real...Rebecca, isn't it?
Alfreda wrote: "The new wife had very little options other than to support her husband. She was rescued from being a companion of a boorish women. She can live a life of luxury with her rich husband, or she can be..."Were she to leave Maxim, would she even be able to find another job? She'd be a divorcee (at best). She might even be seen as a gold-digger for marrying above her social station.
Heather wrote: "Du Mauriere is one of the greatest writers of her time. She wasn't writing perfect people. Yes the second wife was weak--duh. Yes Maxim killed the first one--it's the only thing he ever did to stan..."Well said Heather! Daphne Du Maurier was totally brilliant! Her characters encompass the best and worst traits of humanity and I agree that if you want to read about nice, safe, perfect people - go elsewhere! I remember the first time I read Rebecca - being shocked to the core that Maxim had killed his wife and yet totally understanding that she deliberately pushed him to it. It made me wonder if we all possess a similar breaking point? Great book - and one you can return to time and again even though you know how it ends!
AnnLoretta wrote: "Micebyliz wrote: "That sounds idyllic somehow...i agree i would have had the giggles too. i assure you i could never sew tiny stitches. never learned to sew properly, although i could knit and croc..."AnnLoretta wrote: "Micebyliz wrote: "That sounds idyllic somehow...i agree i would have had the giggles too. i assure you i could never sew tiny stitches. never learned to sew properly, although i could knit and croc..."
not sure what is going on with my posts. i just wanted to tell you that i thought your "life is a real Rebecca" was terribly funny!!!
I hate all the characters, so…...
My interpretation was that Maxim lied to his new wife about Rebecca's murder just as he had lied to everyone else; and the new wife ate it up because she's naive, insecure of Rebecca and desperate for Max's love. Most of the things he said about Rebecca don't align with reality: 1. She was a beloved person. I find it hard to believe only a wife killer knew the "ultimate reality" of her character
2. She wasn't pregnant like he claimed, she was ill
3. The cousin was delusional about Rebecca loving him and Mrs. Danvers mentioned Max was a jealous and insecure guy. She also said, Rebecca wasn't that into men despite the attention she got. To me, she just seemed like a women with interests and a social like outside her husband, unlike the narrator who is a little pathetic if I'm being honest. I think he married her because he could control her. He treats her like his dog, she even sits at his feet with her head resting on his knees in that one scene. Eww.
Finally, max never explains what were these "horrible and evil" things she said five days after their marriage. Since she was laughing and they were on a date, it might have been something totally normal that this wife killing psycho had such a problem with. As for the story he old about her "tricking" him to kill her, serial killers and rapists make up "she asked for it" delusional stories all the damn time to justify their actions.
Personally, this guy gave me the creeps right from the beginning and there's a good chance he'll murder the narrator as well one day when she outgrows here silly naive schoolgirl phase.
I think it wasn't that she was okey with her husband having murdered his first wife, but after living in the house with every moment thinking and being told she wasn't as good as Rebecca. It come as a relief to learn, that her husband never loved Rebecca and that the woman she was told was perfect wasn't as she seems. Even though I feel she took the new a bit too lightly I think it was more shock and relief her husband didn't love Rebecca, but her loved her. But I feel as if her reaction was as if someone was telling her they were having something different for dinner, than they were told they were going to have that day. Maxim I belief after the years of being married to Rebecca just snapped, that day.
There was an episode of Criminal Minds where Hotch and Rossi are called to evaluate a women who had murdered her husband.Everyone loves the husband and hated her. Even the children. She couldn’t cook, couldn’t keep house, wasn’t involved in the Kidd’s lives and the poor husband had to do it all. Everyone believed she killed him out of spite. But when the BAU interviewed her and evaluated the scene they discovered she had been horribly mentally and emotionally abused and manipulated the whole marriage.
That’s what Rebecca did. I think The author was using the second wife to comment on the fact that the upper classes put on a show and nothing was what it seemed to be with them. That cruelty can be disguised in beautiful packages.
Rachel wrote: "There was an episode of Criminal Minds where Hotch and Rossi are called to evaluate a women who had murdered her husband.Everyone loves the husband and hated her. Even the children. She couldn’t ..."
Absolutely brilliant analysis. I agree.
i'm still laughing over the original discussion line--that the murder was okay with the second wife. Not that murder is funny, just the wry humor of the poster. But what about Mrs. Danvers? isn't that just the most spectacular name for a cat????
One of the things that made me believe the things Max de Winter said about Rebecca was the things that Mrs. Danvers said about her. For example, the story about the teen aged Rebecca making a big, brute of a horse shake with fear when she jumped off him. Rebecca was a sociopath. She presented a different face to each person she met depending on what would be to her advantage. Max de Winter, who is no hero, was prime meat for a sociopath. He cared too much about his reputation and that of Manderly.
From the first time I read the book at age 12, I believed that Rebecca committed "suicide by husband". She pushed all the right buttons to get him to do what she wanted. And the bonus for her was that in the end, he would lose everything: Manderly, his reputation, his freedom, and most likely even his life. The perfect portraits of a sociopath and a flawed, too-proud victim.
The second Mrs. de Winter reacted as too many women do. He may kill many women but he would never hurt me. I have never quite understood that kind of woman, but there are many of them.
As others have mentioned, I think the 2nd Mrs. De Winter's decision to stay with Max has to do with her personality. I think the class discussion fits, as well as considering that she was a weak character. Throughout the story she doubts Maxim's love for her, so the fact that he finally admitted that he does love her is more important to her than thinking through the fact that he killed his first wife. Her decision to stay with Max after all that was a desperate attempt to maintain her perceived self-worth and self-esteem. It's kind of like why some women stay with partners that they know have abused other partners in the past. "But I'm special. Our relationship is different. He truly loves ME. He wouldn't hurt ME" and stays with the abusive person. Plus, as a poor young woman, she scored pretty well, marrying a rich man who "loves" her. All the 2nd Mrs. De Winter wanted was to be accepted into a sphere in which she didn't belong or come from, so again, staying with Max just boosts her confidence and position in life. She also doesn't have many options: stay with rich husband vs leave rich husband and go back to being a poor companion or other job. She never has to work a day in her life again if she stays with Max. I think it's also important to keep in mind that the narrator isn't necessarily that reliable, as we constantly read her thoughts of self-doubt and lack of confidence in herself, in her new role and position, and in her relationship. We don't learn that part of her view of her relationship with Max is skewed until she tells him she knows he still loves Rebecca and then he confesses and refutes this.
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I secund that.