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The Return of the Native
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The Return of the Native - Book Two
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Dianne
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Jun 12, 2017 08:31AM
In Book Two we see much ado about the return of the native! Clym Yeobright is returning to the heath from Paris and he seems to be held in very high regard. Eustacia, who we discover is quite the outsider, is very much interested to hear all about Clym and, now that she has moved on (we think) from Wildeve, she has set her sights on Clym. Meanwhile, Thomasin is in hiding after her failed marriage attempt. Thomasin asks her aunt not to tell Clym about the Wildeve situation. Eustacia learns that an annual play will be performed at the Yeobright's Christmas party, to which she was not invited. In order to attend, she concocts a scheme whereby she substitutes for Charley as the Turkish knight. Charley agrees to do this if she will hold his hand for a total of fifteen minutes (I found this part to be so adorable!) Some of the crew realizes who she is but agree to keep her secret. Clym also speaks to her but doesn't realize who she is. Meanwhile, Venn agrees to deliver a breakup letter from Eustacia to Wildeve and Wildeve proceeds to marry Thomasin, with, oddly enough, Eustacia in attendance.
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A few questions on this section: 1. There are many example of the notion that 'love is blind' in this section. Are there any examples of real love in the novel yet? Why is Eustacia so fixated on needing 'drama' in a relationship?
2. Are there positive aspects to the excessive pride of many of the characters?
3. Eustacia is an outsider, but that has some benefits for her, as she is immune to public opinion. Do you think she elects to be an outsider or is that just a reflection of who she is? Does she desire to be different?
4. What are your thoughts on Clym so far? Why do you think the novel was titled in reference to his return to the heath?
5. Mrs. Yeobright - does she mean well?
So far as I can see everything is a mess! We have Wildeve who was engaged to Thomasin (now married) but was still sniffing around Eustacia, who didn't really care for him but thought he was better than nothing until Clym came onto the scene and she's now fixated on the new fish. We also have Venn who seems to be genuinely in love with Thomasin (the only genuine one perhaps) and she doesn't love him, or I think Wildeve really anymore. There is also the suggestion that Clym had feelings for her as well but she didn't return them. So she probably chose the worst guy that she could have!Out of all those people I don't see happy endings for many of them!
Mod
I was taken aback by Charlie's request. In the earlier scene, I thought he was very young. Now we find he is only a few years younger than Eustacia. He is an echo of the theme of unrequited love. It seems people always want what they can't have. Or they think they want something from afar and when they get it, they are disappointed.
Mod
Dianne wrote: "Charley agrees to do this if she will hold his hand for a total of fifteen minutes (I found this part to be so adorable!)."And this was more important to him than money. But Eustacia could have been more gracious about it. How many women have a man who prizes simply holding their hand above riches?
Dianne wrote: "Are there any examples of real love in the novel yet?"If there are any, it's Diggory Venn for Thomasin.
Yes, Diggory Venn's constancy with regard to Thomasin no matter what she's done. It serves as a nice counterpoint to all the selfish and self-dramatised loves of the other characters. Dianne wrote: "Eustacia is an outsider... Do you think she elects to be an outsider or is that just a reflection of who she is?"
Interesting that while Eustacia is geographically outside the village, so many of her actions pull her into the centre: her 'affair' with Wildeve makes her central to the Yeobright family's affairs; she joins the mummer's troupe; now she's pre-decided that she's going to be in love with Clym, she joins him at the heart of the book's title. Clever tension in the way she's both 'of' the village and yet outside: the first time we see her, she's lighting a bonfire like the others, but, of course, its function is quite different. I noted, too, the amount of time she's spent listening outside to other people's conversations: again, the outsider who wants to be inside.
When I first read Native (late teens), I loved Eustacia for her wildness and what I saw as unconventionality - this time round, I still like her but see her much more as someone subject to chance/fate.
Dianne wrote: "ICharley agrees to do this if she will hold his hand for a total of fifteen minutes (I found this part to be so adorable!)"I actually found that very creepy; the bit where it talked about him stroking her hand made my face screw up.
Roman Clodia wrote: "When I first read Native (late teens), I loved Eustacia for her wildness and what I saw as unconventionality - this time round, I still like her but see her much more as someone subject to chance/fate. ."I also loved her spirit as a teen reader, but on this read I'm seeing her more as manipulative and enormously self-centered. Her toying with Wildeve (as he toys with her, I grant), her interference with Thomasin's marriage opportunity by forcing Wildeve to admit his preference for her, her scheming to join the mummers, her manipulation of Charley -- I see her not so much as subject to fate as trying to manipulate her circumstances to govern fate -- her desired fate, at least at this point, of course being to get Clym to marry her and carry her off to Paris.
Nicola wrote: "So far as I can see everything is a mess! We have Wildeve who was engaged to Thomasin (now married) but was still sniffing around Eustacia, who didn't really care for him but thought he was better ..."I was bummed Thomasin married Wildeve, especially so early in the novel. I'm not sure how she could escape that sorry fate! He's fickle like Eustacia but at least she has a compelling character, Wildeve doesn't seem to have any redeeming qualities yet!
Robin wrote: "Again we have "quaint" village customs with the Mummer's play. Eustacia convinced herself to be in love with Clym before she even saw him or knew anything about him (except he's been to Paris!) He ..."Such a good point Robin, Eustacia was 'in love' with Clym before she even met him! She had moved on from Wildeve, was bored, heard about the fantastic and glamorous guy returning from Paris, and set her sights on him. Successfully it would seem!
Lori wrote: "I loved this section with the mummers!"It is such an interesting tradition! Does anyone know more about it? (shameful question as I live near philly). A quick google reveals the tradition goes back to 400 BC!
Everyman wrote: "Dianne wrote: "Charley agrees to do this if she will hold his hand for a total of fifteen minutes (I found this part to be so adorable!)."And this was more important to him than money. But Eustac..."
well, he came off to be more of a kid. And you can bet that was the first time he touched a woman.
Everyman wrote: "Dianne wrote: "Are there any examples of real love in the novel yet?"If there are any, it's Diggory Venn for Thomasin."
Agree!
Roman Clodia wrote: "Yes, Diggory Venn's constancy with regard to Thomasin no matter what she's done. It serves as a nice counterpoint to all the selfish and self-dramatised loves of the other characters. Dianne wro..."
It's interesting how she is likeable and fascinating despite being fickle and a wee bit manipulative. She's definitely more compelling than Thomasin!
Nicola wrote: "Dianne wrote: "ICharley agrees to do this if she will hold his hand for a total of fifteen minutes (I found this part to be so adorable!)"I actually found that very creepy; the bit where it talke..."
What??? You don't like friendly stalker types that would be happy to hold your hand while you time it???
Everyman wrote: "Roman Clodia wrote: "When I first read Native (late teens), I loved Eustacia for her wildness and what I saw as unconventionality - this time round, I still like her but see her much more as someon..."She lives in her own orbit with no controls whatsoever. Her grandfather lets her roam around as she wishes. So, given her lack of 'community' and structure, I wasn't too surprised that she was self-centered. What else would someone be who lives as she does?
Robin wrote: "Again we have "quaint" village customs with the Mummer's play. ."It may be quaint, but it's still being performed even today. Both in England, and in this country. Indeed, in the 1980s I danced in the Revels in New York (Morris dancing), and my father was Father Christmas in the mummers play, all part of a Christmas Revels celebration. It seems that the new York Revels may now be defunct, but it seems to be still going in Boston.
Mod
Hardy does seem to enjoy describing local traditions and rural occupations, (like the reddleman), and their relation to the seasons of the year. I believe Under the Greenwood Tree is divided into 4 seasons and features a musical group (choir or small band, I've forgotten.)
Dianne wrote: She lives in her own orbit with no controls whatsoever. Her grandfather lets her roam around as she wishes Yes, Eustacia is manipulative but at the same time only within certain gender-circumscribed arenas: she's forced to live on the heath which she hates and her only chance of escape is via Clym: she can't get to Paris on her own so tries to do it via a man with whom, as we've said, she persuades herself she is in love before she's even met him. If you haven't started on Book 3 yet
here's a spoiler alert (view spoiler)
So Eustacia's manipulations are an attempt to grab some kind of agency at a time when that was still difficult for women.
Roman Clodia wrote: "Yes, Diggory Venn's constancy with regard to Thomasin no matter what she's done. It serves as a nice counterpoint to all the selfish and self-dramatised loves of the other characters. Dianne wro..."
Eustacia is not the only one eavesdropping, Venn listened into Eustacia 's conversation with Wildeve. I'm thinking of this act as more of a device Hardy uses to further the plot.
I also loved Eustacia when I read this book in my youth (20s) but now I just find her entertaining, with her passion and bold gestures.
Nicola wrote: "Dianne wrote: "ICharley agrees to do this if she will hold his hand for a total of fifteen minutes (I found this part to be so adorable!)"I actually found that very creepy; the bit where it talke..."
I'm with you on this, Nicola. I was glad when the time was up.
Robin wrote: "My husbands was in a Christmas Revels in Minneapolis some years back, and we also had a local Morris dancing group.Hardy does seem to enjoy describing local traditions and rural occupations, (lik..."
In UtGT the musicians are a group which plays at church as. Well as at a festivity for dancers.
Dianne wrote: "A few questions on this section: 1. There are many example of the notion that 'love is blind' in this section. Are there any examples of real love in the novel yet? Why is Eustacia so fixated on ..."
Why is Eustacia so fixated on having drama in her life? It's not just the landscape and low population density, is it, Diane? I know plenty of people in NYC who require drama in their lives. Being beautiful and confident doesn't explain it either. I can't think of a reason someone is passionate, that seems to be innate, but her wildness reflects the lack of structure, as you point out in a another comment. Hardy , in his description of the heath, describes Eustacia. Time won't change her!
She's bored. What is there for an unmarried woman t do except look for a lover/husband? Why was Madame Bovary obsessed with having a lover and going to Paris?
Rochelle wrote: "She's bored. What is there for an unmarried woman t do except look for a lover/husband?"Needlework. Playing the piano or harpsichord. Walking or horseback riding. Drawing or painting. Directing the gardener. Reading novels. As long as a woman has money in that society, and Eustacia (or her indulgent grandfather) does, she has plenty of outlets to keep her interested and occupied if she wants to be.
Eustacia, of course, doesn't.
Everyman wrote: Needlework. Playing the piano or harpsichord. Walking or horseback riding. Drawing or painting. Directing the gardener. Reading novels. As long as a woman has money in that society, and Eustacia (or her indulgent grandfather) does, she has plenty of outlets to keep her interested and occupied if she wants to be. Eustacia, of course, doesn't.
And she was offered a job but she turned it down because work is just too degrading for Eustacia. She wants lots of cash to land in her lap so she can go live the high life or at least go and partake of society in a civilised place.
As her family isn't rich and she has no money of her own then she's stuck as far as she is concerned. She needs a husband to 'take her away from all this!'
I like the Madame Bovary reference. I've been thinking a lot about her as I mull over Eustacia and her motivations. I hope there are no chemists in town.
Nicola wrote: "Dianne wrote: "ICharley agrees to do this if she will hold his hand for a total of fifteen minutes (I found this part to be so adorable!)"I actually found that very creepy; the bit where it talke..."
Eustacia's 19, making Charley a 16-year-old country bumpkin, a child, really. I didn't find it creepy, but cute. Eustacia's impatience was funny. Surprised she didn't have a stopwatch.
Renee wrote: "I like the Madame Bovary reference. I've been thinking a lot about her as I mull over Eustacia and her motivations. I hope there are no chemists in town."I've already read the book way back in college and seen the film. I'll reveal the rest of it by PM for $2000 apiece.
Lol. I think I'll just keep reading. :)
Rochelle wrote: "I'll reveal the rest of it by PM for $2000 apiece."And cheap at twice the price for your wisdom. But sadly I happen to be a bit short of cash just at the moment. Bummer.
The Mummers Parade in Philadelphia has its roots in mummers plays like the one described. In Philly, it has become an entity of its own with competing troupes and categories. They work all year to produce elaborate costumes, music, dance routines, and staging. Then, half the city shuts down on New Years Day for the parade. It's kinda crazy, but also amazing.
Everyman wrote: "Roman Clodia wrote: "When I first read Native (late teens), I loved Eustacia for her wildness and what I saw as unconventionality - this time round, I still like her but see her much more as someon..."I agree with you. It's odd that while there are a number of characters who are suffering in this - and most of Hardy's stories - I find myself lacking any sort of sympathy for Eustacia, especially after making my way through book three. It seems that she is looking for an out, which one can't blame her for, but why is it that, what one would consider an independent woman, needs to find her out through marriage. The more I read about her, the more I find her to be disingenuous.
I find this story a bit like Waiting for Godot. Nearly half of the novel passes before Clym makes an appearance and even then, it's very limited. This is especially interesting considering the novel's very title heralds his arrival. So why keep him in the periphery so long?
Roman Clodia wrote: "Dianne wrote: She lives in her own orbit with no controls whatsoever. Her grandfather lets her roam around as she wishes Yes, Eustacia is manipulative but at the same time only within certain ge..."
I think this is well stated, but, I'm not so sure she can't do it on her own. Hardy sells her as the outcast so why is she still bound by tradition?
Ryan wrote: "So why keep him in the periphery so long? "Perhaps because the very anticipation of his arrival is a significant feature of the novel, various people committing to what they think he will bring or represent before he even enters the picture. I think through that process Hardy reveals things about the characters which wouldn't be revealed if he appeared early and people were reacting only to the actuality instead of to their anticipation of the eventual actuality.
Ryan wrote: "I think this is well stated, but, I'm not so sure she can't do it on her own. Hardy sells her as the outcast so why is she still bound by tradition? "Would her grandfather support her if she left his home and struck out on her own? From what we learn of his character, I have my doubts. And if he didn't support her with an allowance, what would she live on? How would she house, clothe, feed herself? She isn't educated enough to be a governess, is she? And even so, would that be a career she would want? Would she go for a companion or housemaid? Would that be supportive of her independence? Or would she seek to become the mistress of a wealthy man?
There was no welfare state in those days, and she apparently has no other family to support her, so if you want her to strike out independently, I think you need to consider how she would live if she did.
Everyman wrote: "Ryan wrote: "I think this is well stated, but, I'm not so sure she can't do it on her own. Hardy sells her as the outcast so why is she still bound by tradition? "I'm not sure Eustacia is either presented as, or sees herself as, an 'independent' woman. She's an outsider in that she's more or less without a social support structure but that's not the same thing as actually questioning or rejecting social norms and conventions which I don't really think she does.
It's perhaps easy to forget quite how overwhelmingly patriarchal the 1840s (when the novel is set, not when it was written) were, and one of the reason so many nineteenth century English novels are concerned with marriage is that it's one of the few spheres where women have at least some agency. If a spirited woman like Lizzy Bennett has to marry to achieve any form of independence from her parents, then what else is Eustacia to do?
Incidentally, how far does everyone else think Eustacia's relationship with Wildeve has gone by the time the novel opens? Flirting, declarations of love, just kissing or a full sexual relationship?
Roman Clodia wrote: "Incidentally, how far does everyone else think Eustacia's relationship with Wildeve has gone by the time the novel opens? Flirting, declarations of love, just kissing or a full sexual relationship?"Oh a few kisses and that's it. Definitely not sexual.
Nicola wrote: "Roman Clodia wrote: "Incidentally, how far does everyone else think Eustacia's relationship with Wildeve has gone by the time the novel opens? Flirting, declarations of love, just kissing or a full..."hmm I guess the notion of 'hot lovers' (as Eustacia describes her past with Wildeve later in the book) has changed over time!
Yes, I would agree with just kisses - more evidence that Eustacia is more conventionally moral and less wild than she is sometimes portrayed.
Roman Clodia wrote: "Incidentally, how far does everyone else think Eustacia's relationship with Wildeve has gone by the time the novel opens? Flirting, declarations of love, just kissing or a full sexual relationship?"Declarations of love on his part, but perhaps not on hers. Lots of sexual temptation, but no fulfillment. I'm not sure they even kissed.
From Chapter 6:
The revived embers of an old passion glowed clearly in Wildeve now; and he leant forward as if about to put his face towards her cheek.
“O no,” she said, intractably moving to the other side of the decayed fire. “What did you mean by that?”
“Perhaps I may kiss your hand?”
“No, you may not.”
“Then I may shake your hand?”
“No.”
“Then I wish you good night without caring for either. Good-bye, good-bye.”
From Chapter 7:
To be loved to madness—such was her great desire. Love was to her the one cordial which could drive away the eating loneliness of her days. And she seemed to long for the abstraction called passionate love more than for any particular lover.
Which suggests to me that she didn't have a physical lover.
MY BAD -- I got carried away and included excerpts from later in the book. Now in spoilers so as not to totally waste the work, but if you haven't finished it, be very much warned. Very sorry to those who've already read it and found spoilers.
(view spoiler)
Excellent choices of extracts, Everyman - thanks! That quotation from Ch.7 about love driving away her loneliness is very telling, isn't it, and is perhaps one of the keys to understanding Eustacia's actions throughout.
I found that the interlude between Charley and Eustacia made me feel uneasy. I particularly felt sorry for Charley as he was duped by Eustacia - she let his request for a minute run on. I'm glad that's over, but I do feel for Charley.
Mod
While I don't particularly like Eustacia (boredom is not an excuse to ruin other people's lives), I admit I understand her.
And she doesn't intend to ruin anyone's life, so much happens as a result of bad luck, mis-timing and misunderstanding.
