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Thirteen Reasons Why
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Thirteen Reasons Why by Jay Asher June 2017 group read
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message 51:
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Jennifer W
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rated it 4 stars
Jul 08, 2017 05:52PM
I've finished. I found it just as moving and heartbreaking this time around as it was the first time.
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If we are all finished, can I ask about the encounter with the guidance counselor? Did that feel like a set up to anyone else? As she is narrating the encounter, she claims that she visits with him as her last hope. But, she had already constructed this elaborate tape which gets vengeance on all those little slights and those violations that she claims drove her to this decision. It did not feel as if she gave the counselor a chance, but was determined to prove that even this one adult refused to reach out to her. Had she begun the tape after that failed meeting, maybe I might have believed she was sincere and somehow he could not break through her depression. But, she goes into the session with her tape recorder playing like some sting operation.
Mod
Do we know she recorded his tape last? She seemed to express hope when he said there were options, what was she hoping he would say?
That was a bit confusing for me. As I was reading it, I wondered if she was taping this meeting before the rest of the suicide recording. But, it certainly sounded to me as if this was her final tape. It fits senquentiallly, not just that it happened after the other events, but her lead in implies the existence of the prior parts of the story. So, why speak of this as her last hope when she has so carefully [plotted out this revenge tape. The first few events sounded a bit random, the sort of thing that happens in school. But the longer the tape went on, the more the events felt like someone writing a script, as if she went out to craft the events as part of some performance she was writing.
I don't doubt that she had decided to end her life by this point, and I believe she recorded the tapes sequentially, but I don't recall anything that says she did.
I don't think she actually says that she recorded the tapes sequentially. Rather it was the transitions between stories that gave me that impression. I had the impression from the beginning that she was unfolding a story whose ending she already knew.On another note, why was the drunken sex scene at the party and the hot tub scene a part of her cumulative evidence of a world pushing her to suicide? The party scene particularly baffled me. What teen does not know that drunken kids make out, even have sex, at parties? I knew this back in the 70s and stayed away from those parties, both in high school and college (which meant I rarely went to parties). If that was not her thing, why go? And, she was not the one taken advantage of, so why was it so traumatic? Actually, staying hidden while those kids made out seemed rather creepy.
The hot tub scene just felt like buyer's remorse. She took the initiative, never said no, then blamed the guy and girl in the tub for the physical encounter.
I don't think the kids at the party were making out. The girl, who Clay identifies as Jessica (though Hannah doesn't name her), passed out drunk and was left there by Justin, who looked the other way to let Bryce in there. I believe Bryce raped her and Hannah did nothing to stop it. To me the hot tub scene felt like she could somehow make it up to Jessica by letting Bryce do whatever he wanted to her, too. But yes, she definitely knew what could happen if she got into that hot tub.
I did not get the impression that the party bedroom scene culminated in penetration, but stopped at groping, but I might have missed it because by that point I had lost interest in the story and was not paying close attention. I saw the motivation of the hottub scene as a self fulfilling prophecy; life stinks, no one can be trusted, they will all take advantage of me, so let me prove it.
Why do you think this book resonates with teens? Have you seen or plan to watch the Netflix show?
Because many teens, at some hormone fueled point, believes that they are completely misunderstood and that if they did something dramatic and shocking like suicide, all those folks who failed to understand and care about them would finally get it and they would be validated. This book taps into that feeling.I am not watching the show.
Mod
I have the same concern as Sheila.
I did watch the show. I think in some respects it does a better job of showing how hard suicide is for those left behind, especially for Hannah's parents and Clay. There is also a lot more info about the other characters and their sides of their stories. This may be the one instance where the show is a smidge better than the book, at least when it comes to the effects of the message.
I haven't watched the show yet, but I do plan to at some point. I do wonder at the other kids on the tapes- how have they changed as a result? Clay repeatedly said he didn't do anything, did the other kids think so too, or did they know why they were on the tapes when they showed up?
I think that's part of why I like this book so much, you never know, as kids or adults, what anyone may be going through. If a book can make someone stop and think about their words and actions, it could have a huge impact. I guess perhaps I identify more with Clay than Hannah. I don't know what my 14 year old self would have thought about this book.
Mod
http://www.foxnews.com/health/2017/06...
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http://people.com/chica/peruvian-man-...
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http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto...
So what should be done? Should the book be banned? Should the show be pulled?
I don't believe in censorship. I believe there is a lesson to be learned. I am sure the book is already been banned. Not everyone who reads the book is going to commit suicide.
I certainly do not believe in book banning. But, I do think producers should be more responsible when they decide what to promote and back. There are lots and lots of ideas out there for young adult programming. A story that glorifies suicide or drug use should not be the first choice of a producer. Sure it might be popular and make money, but there are more things to consider than money. But, now that the book has been published and the show produced, parents need to be vigilant; if their child is reading/watching, they need to pursue a conversation about the content of the story. I should be more ambitious and responsible myself and write to the publisher voicing my concern and asking for more judicious choices in the future. But, I know I won't do that.
I am sure there have been lots of concerned parents already. I do agree that parents need to talk about teen issues more with their teens.
Unfortunately, it is often the teen most at risk that is least likely to have that conversation with the parent for a variety of reasons. I haven't seen the show, but I would hope it contains ads for suicide prevention hotlines and messages for suicide survivors that they are not to blame.
I think this is a topic that needs to be discussed. I knew a student at the school I was working at, he committed suicide because he was being bullied.
I agree, it needs to be discussed. But, I thought this book glorified suicide. It gave us a girl who was dealing with very ordinary teen dynamics and who left a series of suicide tapes that seemed to blame everyone around her and gained her the sympathy she seemed to crave. We need to talk about suicide with teens, but not in a way that makes it seem like an easy solution to the normal tensions of growing up (or an easy solution to any problem for that matter). I also know loving, supportive families who have dealt with suicide. Blaming others for not being sufficiently supportive and caring is unfair to those friends and families who are broken by the grief already.
I did read of a school in Colorado that pulled the book from their shelves because they've had recent suicides in the area. This is one of those areas that I find interesting as it relates to the power of pop culture to influence people (usually teens). The book is 10 years old, but it wasn't until it became a show that it became a topic of conversation and criticism. It is spurring conversations, serious ones about suicide and mental health. My town has had at least 2 community conversations about the show, open to the public and lead by mental health providers.
I think this topic should be talked about. It certainly isn't a new one.
Jennifer, you rated it 4 stars. Why did you give it such a high rating?
Mod
As everyone else says, I think at this point conversation is the key, that parents need to talk to their kids if they are reading this book or watching the series.
I rate it so high because I really feel for Hannah and Clay. I think the author was able to make me understand and feel Hannah's pain and hopelessness. I also feel Clay's confusion, hurt and anger. A book that makes me feel what a character feels is a good book in my opinion. Obviously, though, just because I "get" Hannah's pain, I don't agree with her decision to end her life. I think she was selfish and I think she could have reached out to others and made other choices leading up to her death. But, again, a book that makes me want to shake a character and tell her she's drawing the wrong conclusions is a good book.
Thanks for that explanation. I did not feel that connection with the characters. They remained flat on the page for me. Maybe that is why I can not get past the issue of suicide and how it might be internalized by a young reader.
I am surprised that Selena Gomez is the executive producer. She states in the below clip that "she was frightened by it's influence and so didn't want to act in it" but my question is then why did she even get involved with it as producer?https://www.popsugar.com/entertainmen...
Great question, I'd like to have her answer that also.
I agree Jennifer
Thank you for your explanation, too, Irene. I get so wrapped up in the characters that I have a hard time seeing how other people might not have the same reaction.
My hope is that Gomez realized and she hoped that the show would spur conversations. Have any of you ever asked someone "are you thinking about suicide? " It's a really hard question. The first time I asked it was in a training, and even in that safe setting it was a hard question. You can't skirt around it with "you aren't thinking of doing something stupid, are you?" or "are you thinking of hurting yourself?" because it can give people wiggle room. If the book or the show give a starting point for conversations, then people might be better able to talk about it, and talking about suicide helps reduce stigma and can save lives.
I think I have always used a euphemism like "are you thinking of hurting yourself". I am afraid that if I use the word suicide with a fragile person, it might legitimize that option. Once it is said out loud, it becomes a real possibility.
Surprisingly, research shows that not to be the case. People have been found to say no, I'm not thinking of hurting myself because they plan to do something like overdose on sleeping pills and don't think it'll hurt. In my (thankfully limited) experience, people prefer the direct approach and evidence shows that mentioning suicide does not make a person consider it if they weren't already thinking about it.
Thank you for that information.
