Georgette Heyer Fans discussion
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Penhallow Group Read June 2017 Spoilers thread
I agree with Critterbee. I don't think she changed, but she did get what she wanted. She will make Bart very happy, consequently.
i like Loveday, she is quite a realistic character i think. She loves bart, but she doesn't want to live in poverty, she knows too well what that is like. She wants them to have a comfortable life. She is hunting comfort rather than a fortune i think.
Louise wrote: "i like Loveday, she is quite a realistic character i think. She loves bart, but she doesn't want to live in poverty, she knows too well what that is like. She wants them to have a comfortable life...."I agree, and "hunting comfort" is quite an accurate way of putting it.
Loveday does seem very realistic and I can't blame her at all for what she wants - survival, first, and then comfort. I hate the name, though. I googled and it is a name but I don't like it for some reason.from wikipedia
Loveday. Loveday is a name, thought to derive from Old English Leofdaeg or alternatively Lief Tag. Leofdaeg is composed of the words leof meaning dear/beloved or precious and daeg meaning day. Lief Tag literally translates to Love Day, and is thought to have existed in eastern Britain from around the 7th century.
Carol ♔Type, Oh Queen!♕ wrote: "Critterbee wrote: "I felt that she was a fortune hunter throughout. I think that she loved him, but wanted the property just as much. If anyone in Penhallow gets a 'happily ever after' after this b..."I don't really see Loveday as a predator; she's intensely practical and knows what she wants, but she will also give good value for what she gets. She has a deep well of maternal feeling, so she'll still be a tiger when it comes to her children - and Bart, too - and her managerial skills will make successes out of all of them.
I think that she might be the most liked or least despised person in Penhallow. I think that outside of this book, without the contrasting backdrop of thoroughly unlikables, she probably wouldn't be considered so likable.
She is making gold out of garbage, though, and it is admirable for her to be so determined in improving herself and her lifestyle. In fact, I believe she is the only one who actually succeeds in, hmm, well succeeding over Adam's will. She sort of escapes his swath of destruction while everyone else he has ever have known has been damaged by it/him.
Argh! 'Thoroughly unlikables'! I think that this book has made me meaner!
Critterbee wrote: "Argh! 'Thoroughly unlikables'! I think that this book has made me meaner!"Just think of it as a cautionary tale and use them all as examples of Who Not to Emulate!
Critterbee wrote: "I think that she might be the most liked or least despised person in Penhallow. I think that outside of this book, without the contrasting backdrop of thoroughly unlikables, she probably wouldn't..."
Oh I like Loveday (& I like her name) I just would have liked the characterisation at the end to be tougher.
It's a good example of real life, though. Fate isn't even-handed and it doles out a fairly pleasant future (with the exception of Bart's murderous twin in the background) for Loveday. I don't like Ingram at all, and he's coming off smelling like a rose, too. Unfair!
I really liked it!! I don't read murder mysteries other than Agatha Christie, they're not really my thing. I'm so glad I joined this group and got the chance to read the Heyer mysteries. I've read about four now and this is definitely my favorite. I know some people didn't like it. Maybe I don't look into things as deeply as others. This was a master class in characterisation. There are some horrible characters in this book. Also Eugene who was a total waste of space. They were like a lot of leeches. Of course Penhallow himself was obnoxious beyond belief. I liked Ray, even though he was portrayed as cold and aloof. He died for nothing which was a real stinger. Great read.
it's a dead loss as a murder mystery. You know who the murderer is at once, and the murderer is not caught, and the wrong person blamed for the murder. Highly unsatisfactory. none of the characters are very appealing.
It's amazing how we differ in our opinions of books. Makes for interesting discussions!
I was upset when Ray died. Needless! After he found out that he was free from being tied to Penhallow, he could have taken his horse breeding experience and zoomed off away from the poison land and disreputable family.But he was upset, and could not see behind Penhallow's horrible reveal.
Critterbee wrote: "I was upset when Ray died. Needless! After he found out that he was free from being tied to Penhallow, he could have taken his horse breeding experience and zoomed off away from the poison land and..."Yeah but don't forget when this book was written. The "stigma" of illegitimacy would have followed him.
Ray would never have left. He loved the house and estate. It was his life. I think that's why he ended it. If the news came out that he wasn't the heir he couldn't have stayed and watch Ingram take over everything that he had worked.
Hmm, illegitimacy... Perhaps he could have moved to North America, Australia, New Zealand or South Africa. Tried to outrun his past and re-evaluate life.Ah-ha! I have it!
Mysterious, haughty stranger with hidden, painful past and talent for horse, erm, husbandry(?) appears on the scene to forge a new life, all the while being chased by demons that will never rest!
Movie of the week premise, done!
:):):). Do I detect slight sarcasm there!!
romance novel, is what I think - young woman meets him and sees through the cold & aloofness. :-)
Teresa wrote: "Ray would never have left. He loved the house and estate. It was his life. I think that's why he ended it. If the news came out that he wasn't the heir he couldn't have stayed and watch Ingram take..."i thought Ray's giving up so easily was rather unlikely. he seemed tougher than that. And really there was no firm proof that he knew of that he wasn't the heir. Since he had been presented to the world as adam and rachel's oldest son, and raised as such, anyone trying to prove otherwise seems to be on very shaky ground. i thought him suddenly turning so feeble and defeastist very odd. he couldn't find any evidence of his birth, did any actually exist? he doesn't ven bother to find out, just lapses into melancholy and shoots himself.
Critterbee wrote: "Hmm, illegitimacy... Perhaps he could have moved to North America, Australia, New Zealand or South Africa. Tried to outrun his past and re-evaluate life.Ah-ha! I have it!
Mysterious, haughty st..."
That would be good. i think he'd have done very well in any of those places. Nobody would care what his background was.
Critterbee wrote: "I was upset when Ray died. Needless! After he found out that he was free from being tied to Penhallow, he could have taken his horse breeding experience and zoomed off away from the poison land and..."he completely lost the plot. the thing to have done would have been to brazen it out, challenge Adam to produce proof of his illegitimacy, if any existed. what proof actually exists? rachel is dead. delia is half witted at best, even if she could be bullied by Adam into saying Ray was her son, would it stand up in court? A good defending counsel could make mincemeat of her.
Ray was a very proud man: proud of his birth, his position and his land. To find out that none of it was rightfully his was a tremendous shock, to put it mildly.But I think that the most important thing to Ray was the FACT that he was illegitimate. No one else (besides Delia and his uncle) knew it to be a fact, but it was the truth of the matter that haunted him. And when Jimmy had "something to say" about the murder, and it could have been that he overheard Penhallow throwing his birth at Ray, it was the last straw. He knew that at any moment someone could come forward with the truth, and that he'd have to be ready for it at all times. His whole life had been a hideous lie, nothing that he thought was true was, and he just wanted out.
very poor spirited of him not to put up more of a fight. He doesn't even bother to find out what it is Jimmy knows. it seems totally uncharacteristic of him to suddenly become so feeble. The whole story is absurdly melodramatic. None of it is believable.
Well, I think that anyone who is going to commit suicide probably is poor-spirited, but I wouldn't call them feeble. It takes a peculiar kind of guts to go through with it.But I think, too, that just because we're not prone to despair ourselves over what seems to us trivial or silly doesn't mean that it's not of serious importance to another. I can feel Ray's despair, I can see his determination to live free or not live at all. I think he was wrong, but, nonetheless, I can feel it.
I agree Karlyne. I've had a close brush with suicide within my family and the reasons can be inconceivable to other people. Ray was always a strong type and the fact that the life he had lived and loved was built on a lie was enough to tip him over the edge. I don't think he was a pathetic character. There was a sadness here when you realised what he was going to do.
I found Ray believable and seriously sad.
Karlyne wrote: "Well, I think that anyone who is going to commit suicide probably is poor-spirited, but I wouldn't call them feeble. It takes a peculiar kind of guts to go through with it.But I think, too, that ..."
Living is what really takes guts I think. I would have liked to see Ray fight it out with the other Starkadders (sorry, penhallows) not just give up. It was a really lame ending, one of the lamest endings of any story i'd ever read. I was expecting something much more exciting. I should have read the ending first Like I usually do, it would have saved a lot of disappointment.
Of course plugging along with living takes guts, but sometimes that's done out of fear of death, too. The problem with Ray's situation is that even if he'd fought it out and "won", it wouldn't have been a win to HIM. He still would have been Penhallow's bastard, and that's what he didn't want to live with.
I just got off the phone with my son, who called up to chat. When he asked me what I'd been reading lately, I described Penhallow (in such a way as to avoid spoilers), and he eventually said that it sounded like a good prospect for a TV adaptation on "Masterpiece" or one of those similar series. I agreed that it would be a great opportunity for all those British character actors. What do you all think?
Oh, wow! And it could be billed as A Cast of Characters You'll Love to Hate... I would love it!
Karlyne wrote: "Oh, wow! And it could be billed as A Cast of Characters You'll Love to Hate... I would love it!"& in black & white for the win! That would give it a lovely Hitchcockian feel!
Yes! Wouldn't Hitchcock have a field day with it?!?
Black and white would give it the proper period feel, too. It's a story that wouldn't work outside its social milieu--illegitimacy being a real stigma, for instance. But the BBC is good at period pieces.
Karlyne wrote: "Of course plugging along with living takes guts, but sometimes that's done out of fear of death, too. The problem with Ray's situation is that even if he'd fought it out and "won", it wouldn't have..."it's still a dull ending. A tiresome story altogether.
I think you're son is spot on. As I was reading it I was thinking the same thing. Such a pity it wouldn't be picked up. Gosh Louise you really hated it didn't you?
Louise is not alone. Had Penhallow been the first Georgette Heyer I read - it would probably have been the last!!
Teresa wrote: "I think you're son is spot on. As I was reading it I was thinking the same thing. Such a pity it wouldn't be picked up. Gosh Louise you really hated it didn't you?"
Yes. unpleasant characters and a lame ending.
Susan in Perthshire wrote: "Louise is not alone. Had Penhallow been the first Georgette Heyer I read - it would probably have been the last!!"Mine too.
I felt that way when I first read it - same with some other Heyer. over time, I've come to like them all. just acquired a taste for them, apparently.
This is my second time reading it, in about two years, so I am not startled anymore by the unpleasantness. Still haven't grown to like it, though. But, it led to a really enjoyable discussion here!
This story was so hard to get through. None of the characters were remotely appealing. The Penhallows are like a small nation headed up by a dictator and when the dictator is deposed or died, everyone starts fighting and it makes everything worse. The only one I kind of liked was Char because everything she said was sensible and she never really engaged in the baiting and bickering the boys did. I also felt bad for her because she seems to be in love with her roommate. They seem to have what we be called a "Boston Marriage." Did anyone else think Char was possibly Transgender? Aubrey was clearly the gay stereotype. That was tough to read along with everything else including the hideous appellation given to Jimmy, the casual racial slurs and all the god awful things Adam did.
I think Delia was supposed to be the chaperone for Adam and Rachel. Rachel may have trusted her fiance and her little sister. Delia, fresh out of school, may have thought she was more sophisticated than she was. My other theory is she may have adored Adam and looked up to him . No doubt in my mind that Adam took advantage of her. The whole situation was so sordid and sad. I think Rachel chose Ray to be the heir because it was either him or Jimmy or someone else. At least Ray was of her own blood. I think the experience was too much for Delia and it may have been kinder to keep Ray nearby where she could see him given her mental state. She clearly adores him and tries too hard to please him which makes him hate her more.
The ending was so horrible and anti-climatic. I thought for sure more than one of them would have tried to kill Penhallow and the mystery would be which one succeeded. I can't believe Faith had the nerve to do it. She's pretty much lost her mind by the end of the book and I see that son of hers sticking her in the nearest mental hospital and never going near her again. I thought Faith would need Loveday's brains to act. She could probably confess and get off by reason of insanity, if that existed in Britain at that time.
I'm glad to return to Heyer's happy make-believe Regency world any time but I will not be rereading Penhallow.
Am I the only one who liked this book?????? I enjoyed the characterisations. I know it wouldn't be at all PC in our world today but she was writing this at a very different time. I'm not saying that I condone any of the 'stereotypes' but if we were all offended by these type of novels we'd never read anything from the past.
I actually think it's a masterpiece! But it's one that took me awhile to appreciate; this must be at least the fourth time I've read it. I try to be very careful about making assumptions based on today's
Whoops, posted before I was ready... culture, because I think Heyer wasn't giving us her version of stereotypes but was just drawing characters. Haven't we known an Aubrey or Char or even an Adam? It's easier to understand them (not like them, necessarily) if we try to leave behind our modern cultural bias. It seems like it ought to work the other way around, but I don't think it does.
I am not offended by the characters - but I was bored by them because they, along with the plot, were all so utterly unbelievable - in my opinion! I didn't think they were well drawn characters at all - and personally I haven't ever come across anyone who was like any of them. Perhaps I have been lucky! I have not viewed this book through 'today's culture' but simply as a story - which I found silly and unpleasant. Each to their own of course. Life would be so boring if we all agreed!
You have been lucky! And you're right; we need the variety we have in our opinions.
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I felt this was an example of GH not being able to resist having a HEA for a romantic couple. I would have preferred Loveday to have remained predatory.