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The History of Zero: Exploring Our Place-Value Number System (Powermath)
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MISCELLANEOUS TOPICS > Is zero a number?

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message 1: by James, Group Founder (new)

James Morcan | 11067 comments This is totally random...

But is zero a number?


message 3: by [deleted user] (new)

considering decimal system, yes it is a whole number


message 4: by Elisabet (new)

Elisabet Norris | 486 comments Historically it did not start out as a number, but as a placeholder (1, 10, 100, 1000, etc.) and to fill in empty columns.

But as a human species, we like to complicate things...learning about stuff in more depth....science and shit....we are a bunch of crazies!

Zero is not defined. Does it prove the presence of something? Does it prove the absence of something?

In a mathematical problem, can you cancel out a zero?

And what about a photon at rest (Mo=0 and v=0)? Is the answer valid in reality? Do all photons contain the same amount of energy regardless of their frequency? Do all photons, regardless of color, have the same frequency?

0/0 can assume different values. Can a numerical fraction have different values?


message 5: by [deleted user] (new)

yes u r right. there r many anomalies in maths regarding 0...
but if u see the decimal number system, it's basically a set of repetitions...
00 to 09, then 10 to 19, and so on
and if u see the next set, it's
100,101,102......111,112......and so on... so here 0 is not treated as anything "special" but treated as other digits only....
so I think 0 is a number....
it is not a natural number, but it definitely is a whole number


message 6: by James, Group Founder (new)

James Morcan | 11067 comments Why didn't many older Civilizations use zero then?


message 7: by Harry (new)

Harry Whitewolf | 1745 comments James wrote: "Why didn't many older Civilizations use zero then?"

Many did. It existed way before decimal systems. Babylonians (Mayans etc.) first had the concept of zero.


message 8: by [deleted user] (new)

Roman number system did not contain 0 , and that is the reason it failed and decimal system is still uses today


message 9: by James, Group Founder (new)

James Morcan | 11067 comments Masi: is nothing a value? If there are zero elephants in this world, can we even say that elephants exist?

Krishna: did the Roman numerical system fail?

P.S. Is -1, or anything "less than zero", a number?


message 10: by Harry (new)

Harry Whitewolf | 1745 comments The Origin of Zero - an article on Scientific American - says:

"The number zero as we know it arrived in the West circa 1200, most famously delivered by Italian mathematician Fibonacci (aka Leonardo of Pisa), who brought it, along with the rest of the Arabic numerals, back from his travels to north Africa. But the history of zero, both as a concept and a number, stretches far deeper into history—so deep, in fact, that its provenance is difficult to nail down.
"There are at least two discoveries, or inventions, of zero," says Charles Seife, author of Zero: The Biography of a Dangerous Idea (Viking, 2000). "The one that we got the zero from came from the Fertile Crescent." It first came to be between 400 and 300 B.C. in Babylon, Seife says, before developing in India, wending its way through northern Africa and, in Fibonacci's hands, crossing into Europe via Italy."

More: https://www.scientificamerican.com/ar...


message 11: by Harry (new)

Harry Whitewolf | 1745 comments Also from that article above:

"Initially, zero functioned as a mere placeholder—a way to tell 1 from 10 from 100, to give an example using Arabic numerals. "That's not a full zero," Seife says. "A full zero is a number on its own; it's the average of –1 and 1."
It began to take shape as a number, rather than a punctuation mark between numbers, in India in the fifth century A.D., says Robert Kaplan, author of The Nothing That Is: A Natural History of Zero (Oxford University Press, 2000). "It isn't until then, and not even fully then, that zero gets full citizenship in the republic of numbers," Kaplan says. Some cultures were slow to accept the idea of zero, which for many carried darkly magical connotations."


message 12: by James, Group Founder (new)

James Morcan | 11067 comments Ok, I've been converted to The Way of Zero.
And fight all those (like Lisa!) who imply Zero is just nothing and not worthy :)
Acknowledge equal mathematical rights for Zero!
Say no to mathematical discrimination!
Yes 9 and 8 are the elite, but zero is a ground hero, forming a grassroots movement...trying to help those less even privileged like -1, -2, -3 etc.

P.S. The Way of Zero may not be good for my brain...


message 13: by [deleted user] (new)

thanks for the info Harry......

James, yes of course Roman numeral system failed..
and -1 is after all a real number, so it is a number I guess


message 14: by Harry (new)

Harry Whitewolf | 1745 comments Well, according to Orwell: 2 + 2 = 5. ;)


message 15: by [deleted user] (new)

yes! zero is our hero!


message 16: by James, Group Founder (new)

James Morcan | 11067 comments Krishna, you now belong to the Way of Zero.
Here we believe nothing is not nothing.
Even if you have nothing, deep down you still got something and therefore you're a Zero Hero :)


message 17: by Harry (new)

Harry Whitewolf | 1745 comments If we're actually in a matrix, then zeroes and ones were here long before anything else.... :)


message 18: by James, Group Founder (new)

James Morcan | 11067 comments Because Orwell belonged to the Fabian Society. He's part of the mathematical elite and rewrite numerology to his liking.
But you can't because Zero is the real Hero!


message 19: by Harry (new)

Harry Whitewolf | 1745 comments Masi [Hey Hey Hey] (S.B.QP) wrote: "Harry wrote: "Well, according to Orwell: 2 + 2 = 5. ;)"

??? Why does he say that?"


It's from 1984.

As Wikipedia explains:

"In the novel, it is used as an example of an obviously false dogma that one may be required to believe, similar to other obviously false slogans promoted by the Party in the novel. It is contrasted with the phrase "two plus two makes four", the obvious—but politically incorrect—truth.

Orwell's protagonist, Winston Smith, uses the phrase to wonder if the State might declare "two plus two equals five" as a fact; he ponders whether, if everybody believes it, does that make it true? The Inner Party interrogator of thought-criminals, O'Brien, says of the mathematically false statement that control over physical reality is unimportant; so long as one controls one's own perceptions to what the Party wills, then any corporeal act is possible, in accordance with the principles of doublethink ("Sometimes they are five. Sometimes they are three. Sometimes they are all of them at once")."


message 20: by James, Group Founder (new)

James Morcan | 11067 comments So you also accept your offer to join the Way of Zero, Harry?
First initiation is to empty your pockets.
Your bank account will immediately become zero too, you'll note.
But don't fret because zero is not nothing remember :)


message 21: by Harry (new)

Harry Whitewolf | 1745 comments James wrote: "So you also accept your offer to join the Way of Zero, Harry?
First initiation is to empty your pockets.
Your bank account will immediately become zero too, you'll note.
But don't fret because zero..."


My bank account's already way below zero mate...


message 22: by Tim (new)

Tim Rees | 98 comments Zero is represented by a circle that symbolically means nothing, yet, because a circle has no beginning or end, it is eternal.

Also, the planets in the sola system are round and are in permanent cycles of the sun and often each other... The circle, or zero, is profound me thinks... :) I love this stuff...


message 23: by James, Group Founder (new)

James Morcan | 11067 comments I saw a mathematical article which asked: if infinity is not a number, then why do some say zero is not a number?
There's a secret movement designed to delegitimise zero's status, I tell ya.
A bit like how astronomers downgraded Pluto from a planet to a moon.


message 24: by Harry (new)

Harry Whitewolf | 1745 comments Tim wrote: "Zero is represented by a circle that symbolically means nothing, yet, because a circle has no beginning or end, it is eternal."

Good observation Tim. Zero is all and nothing!


message 25: by James, Group Founder (new)

James Morcan | 11067 comments This is starting to sound like a Zen riddle, Tim.


message 26: by James, Group Founder (new)

James Morcan | 11067 comments If zero is nothing, and meaningless and useless as many say, then why is it when you add a lot of zeroes to your worth you suddenly get a lot more of everything you want?


message 27: by [deleted user] (new)

nice thought Tim....very nice

there's one more thing....
while creation there was something out of nothing... this idea is odd but is very similar to the idea that 0! is 1


message 28: by [deleted user] (new)

that's a relevant question James..


message 29: by James, Group Founder (new)

James Morcan | 11067 comments If there are zero dinosaurs now, and zero has a value, then why is it dinos are now said to be extinct?


message 30: by James, Group Founder (new)

James Morcan | 11067 comments First rule of science, Krishna: you can't (ever!) get something from nothing.
Ergo, the Big Bang Theory is a misunderstanding. Before the Big Bang was not nothing, but something...it's only being viewed as nothing for the time being just like how many previously said zero was nothing before the Way of Zero became more popular...


message 31: by James, Group Founder (new)

James Morcan | 11067 comments As zero is a circle, is infinity contained with zero?


message 32: by James, Group Founder (new)

James Morcan | 11067 comments Anything whatsoever you want, Masi.
There are zero limitations in the Underground...


message 33: by [deleted user] (new)

right on that James...

infinity has symbol of 2 zeros or circles... is there a hidden meaning ?? :-/


message 34: by James, Group Founder (new)

James Morcan | 11067 comments That 0 on its own appears to be nothing, but two zeroes together is infinity or God or All-That-Is?


message 35: by [deleted user] (new)

this is so confusing...
0 and infinity compliments each other, like 1/infinity=0 and vice versa.... so number of circles in 0= 3- number of circles in infinity and vice versa, and 3 as Nikola Tesla has said, is a very important number


message 36: by [deleted user] (new)

no I don't think so Masi


message 37: by [deleted user] (new)

Nothing to be precise


message 38: by James, Group Founder (new)

James Morcan | 11067 comments Masi you just rejected the Way of Zero by saying zero is nothing but a concept...


message 39: by James, Group Founder (new)

James Morcan | 11067 comments This is the zero (nothing) thread, so why does nothing need to go somewhere, Masi? What is it about nothingness (aka infinity) that makes you uncomfortable?


message 40: by [deleted user] (new)

that's a nice question..... I think yes infinity is a variable because infinity is not same for everyone in every situation


message 41: by James, Group Founder (new)

James Morcan | 11067 comments How can infinity be a variable when infinity is limitless by definition, Lord Krishna?


message 42: by James, Group Founder (new)

James Morcan | 11067 comments Yay, Masi: you are welcomed back to the Way of Zero cult :)


message 43: by Elisabet (new)

Elisabet Norris | 486 comments James wrote: "First rule of science, Krishna: you can't (ever!) get something from nothing.
Ergo, the Big Bang Theory is a misunderstanding. Before the Big Bang was not nothing, but something...it's only being v..."


Wrong, James...in space, you CAN get something out of nothing ;)

With Zero, the devil is in the details....hence Zero is not really a number, but the name given the very first eternal multiversal being....you can argue both for and against it and be right and wrong all at the same time......


message 44: by Elisabet (new)

Elisabet Norris | 486 comments Masi [Hey Hey Hey] (S.B.QP) wrote: "is infinity a variable? (I'm just asking random questions to make this go somewhere)"

infinity is not a number, but rather a symbol....so the question becomes: can something that cannot be measured be a variable?


message 45: by James, Group Founder (new)

James Morcan | 11067 comments So you're saying Lisa that the First Law of Thermodynamics, which states you cannot get something from nothing, does not apply once you go past the Earth's atmosphere?


message 46: by James, Group Founder (new)

James Morcan | 11067 comments There is never nothing Masi.
Lisa is delusional
She's not a Zero Hero
So come to the Way of Zero cult where we show you the something hidden in the "nothing" :)


message 47: by Elisabet (new)

Elisabet Norris | 486 comments James wrote: "So you're saying Lisa that the First Law of Thermodynamics, which states you cannot get something from nothing, does not apply once you go past the Earth's atmosphere?"

I am saying that it is time to revise the First Law of Thermodynamics.

Empty space is full of atoms and therefore DOES NOT consist of nothing.


message 48: by [deleted user] (new)

infinity is a variable because it's relative... something which is of finite size to a man, is of infinite size to an ant!


message 49: by Elisabet (new)

Elisabet Norris | 486 comments Krishna wrote: "infinity is a variable because it's relative... something which is of finite size to a man, is of infinite size to an ant!"

How can something that cannot be assigned any value be given a tangible quantity?


message 50: by James, Group Founder (new)

James Morcan | 11067 comments But Krish, either something is infinite (endless) or finite and has an end somewhere. Our perceptions are irrelevant to the real measurement. Or am I missing something?
P.S. Why has this thread shifted from zero to infinity? Is that possibly because the true meaning of zero IS infinity?


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