Our Shared Shelf discussion
Intersectional Feminism
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What do you think of Emma Watson as a feminist?
See here for TERF:http://transadvocate.com/terf-what-it...
or here in German:
https://missy-magazine.de/blog/2016/1...
The former contains more history on the term, the latter, I feel, is clearer about the whole extremist subset it describes.
Georgios wrote: "MeerderWörter wrote: "Oh, I totally agree with you. And Gloria Steinem is maybe more progressive than some of the young folks (TERFs...). You know, I think Emma has potential to become a second Glo..."Sorry for assuming that you know what TERF means - I was just too much absorbed into the discussion and sometimes I happen to overassume that others know what I know. Sorry for that. I sometimes get carried away when I type here!
Secondly, I don't want Emma to become a second Gloria Steinem - she doesn't need to. I just wish she is someone who, in her eighties, can also say that she was an important voice of 21st century feminism.
MeerderWörter wrote: "Secondly, I don't want Emma to become a second Gloria Steinem - she doesn't need to. I just wish she is someone who, in her eighties, can also say that she was an important voice of 21st century feminism."The Planet... Arrakis. Dune.
A wasteland that holds the most valuable treasure in the univiverse. Where Paul Atreides is predestined to set mankind upon the Golden path and...
Ermmm Wait. This is not Dune. It's not a fictional universe where people are predestined for something. It's real life. And the fun part about real life is that it is trully unpredictable.
Allright. The way I see it is like this: You want Mrs Watson to become a great Feminist.
The way I see it is this:
Mrs Watson may:
Become a Great feminist in her own right if she chooses to
Or
Dedicate herself to her career and become the greatest actress that ever lived.
Or
Go into politics and become the Prime Minister of UK
Or
She may drop everything and decide all she wants to do is have a family:
Or
A combination of the above.
Or
Anthing else she might want to do really.
The thing is that you have certain expectations from Mrs Watson. When you have such expectations you are bound to be dissapointed. Why? Because these expectations are your expectations of yourself reflected upon Mrs Watson.
Tell me something my good Sea of Words. Why dont you try and become yourself someone like Gloria Steinem? Or at least you can try, Because you know its not the destination, its the Journey.
You see the danger in this 4th wave (3rd generation feminists really), and whatever movement spawns for whatever cause there is to fight, is that due to the internet, this new generation actually becomes "couch warriors". Basically reflecting upon celebrities and wanting them to become what they should be becoming themselves. And thats a real danger that after a while can lead to indifference, and then indifference can lead to cynicism.
Here is a very important quote from one of the greatest Greek Philosophers and Writers:
"Love responsibility. Say: It is my duty, and mine alone, to save the earth. If it is not saved, then I alone am to blame. " Nikos Kazantzakis - Askitiki (The Saviours of God) - 1923
So you say that Mrs Watson must become like Gloria Steinem? I say in reality you want to become like Gloria Steinem. Its a good benchmark. Better get working on it though. When she was your age Gloria Steinem was already in India organising women there.
Ok I think the better question will be What do you think of yourself as a feminist?Emma is a ordinary women. Yes she is a public figure but that like a 60% of the people in this world. So why we take her on the edge?
Remember that she is in fact a human being.
So I got mission for pick up the mirror and ask yourself: If I am a feminist , If I am a good feminist ?
Actually give me good define for that.
I my point of view is a feminist should be someone who accepting own existence in 100%. What that mean well to go into to that fight you need to know your enemy. And the enemy is always mind.
Because truly Feminism is not a hate word is just no understandable word for lots of people, and people are afraid of what they don't fully understand.
You need to be: honest, respectable , caution, control , cherish , reckless, confident , courageous , fearless, strong. You need to feel :
passion, respect, devotion, joy, warmth, dedication, desire, honesty, loyalty , rationality, trust and duty.
This are the most important factors for being true to yourself. After when you achieve that then you are true feminist. Because nobody and nothing stops you.
Well but that is my point of view.
Agnes wrote: "Emma is a ordinary women. "No she is not. First of all there is no such thing as "ordinary". Each and every one of us is uniquely different from the other due to life experiences. However Mrs Watson is differs than most of us due to her Celebrity status.
Agnes wrote: "You need to be: honest, respectable , caution, control , cherish , reckless, confident , courageous , fearless, strong. You need to feel :
passion, respect, devotion, joy, warmth, dedication, desire, honesty, loyalty , rationality, trust and duty. "
Agnes while I agree with you there I need to tell you this: Do you realise that all these positive things are traits that only a feminist should have? How about a good Christian? A good Muslim? A Good Soldier? A good Man? A good Priest? A good Engineer? A good pastry chef even?
Here is the thing though. Socrates believed that all people are inherently good. And thats very true. He also said that we are able to reform and change our ways exactly because of we are all inherently good.
So when you are talking about an enemy that is "in your mind" who exactly are you talking about? Yourself? The opposite of you? But the opposite of you also believes that they are good and they also encompass all these virtues.
What you need to understand is this: There is a certain way of doing something. But there might be a better way of doing something. All you need to do is display that your way is better and more beneficial.
Georgios wrote: "MeerderWörter wrote: "Secondly, I don't want Emma to become a second Gloria Steinem - she doesn't need to. I just wish she is someone who, in her eighties, can also say that she was an important vo..."I never said that I want Emma Watson to become Gloria Steinem. If that's how my posts were read, I'm sorry, it was not what I had intended.
I just think that Emma might become a feminist that is as inclusive as Gloria Steinem. Maybe she does not, maybe she drops it all. It's her choice, decisions she has to make.
But is it really so bad to wish that someone becomes as inclusive as Gloria Steinem? I don't think so.
And no, I don't want to become a second Gloria Steinem. I can fight my own fight. We all choose our battle fields, and these may differ from person to person.
And I'm not a couch warrior.
Mod
"Love responsibility. Say: It is my duty, and mine alone, to save the earth. If it is not saved, then I alone am to blame. " Nikos Kazantzakis - Askitiki (The Saviours of God) - 1923
Beautiful quote. I can feel my Catholic guilt afflicting me already.
In all seriousness, we all must be aware of the danger of being couch warriors. Not to say that spreading ideas and conversing online and reading books doesn't help the movement - for it does. Just that we cannot rely on these tactics alone.
Echo Chambers, while comforting and educational, don't hold the answer.
Georgios wrote: "MeerderWörter wrote: "Secondly, I don't want Emma to become a second Gloria Steinem - she doesn't need to. I just wish she is someone who, in her eighties, can also say that she was an important vo...""Couch warriors" I belive is an insulting term! And not one to be used towards people here. I don't know if that is your intent Georgios but it kind of seems it! As well as putting words into the mouths of others. Whether or not you understand that or see yourself doing it I guess are to entirely different things. I do not believe that this is the place for that.
This group is a safe place for all to voice their opinions and to be heard by all! You included! But I do believe some of the things that you have stated in reply towards others have been how shall I say resentful. Maybe because you feel badly now that you classify yourself as a feminist, as you previosly stated in a comment above. And maybe you are now taking it out on this group in a way. The shortcomings of what you thought feminism was to you and how you yourself perceived the movement.
I will tell you that my veiws on this started at 16 years old I am 43 now and still learning but my initial core value of what feminism is stays the same throughout which is 'the equal inclusion 50/50 in "ALL" ways or aspects of life of "ALL" human beings whether they are; male, female, gay, straight, lesbian, bi-sexual, transgendered or intersex. And if I have missed anyone please let me know.
I do hope that I helped you to see that you may be hurting others in some of your responses and if the moderators feel that things that I have stated are out of line in anyway please feel free to delete this post!
I am now off to my discussion on "Relaxation" which I posted a few months ago under the "miscellaneous " category because I need it!
Georgios wrote: "Agnes wrote: "Emma is a ordinary women. "No she is not. First of all there is no such thing as "ordinary". Each and every one of us is uniquely different from the other due to life experiences. H..."
She is successful women so she is pretty ordinary. But that what you see outside and not inside. That not define her like a person, she really is.
"You can discover more about a person in an hour of play then in a year of conversation"
Do I realise that all these positive things are traits that only a feminist should have?
No and I didn't say that, do I ?
But we talk about feminism noting else.
"Mind" is I'm shock that I need to explain that but here it go. Well the mind can be very trick. If you don't believe in something you never go farther. So saying 'Mind" I meant yours own feelings and emotions.
The first and greatest victory is to conquer yourself; to be conquered by yourself is of all things most shameful and vile.
the point is to do something to fight , not sitting in home watching tv etc but you can't fight with the others if you don't win your own fight.
good actions give strength to ourselves and inspire good actions in others.
Pam wrote: "Beautiful quote. I can feel my Catholic guilt afflicting me already."Ummm no. Not catholic. Kazantzakis was an Agnostic, who believed in God. I have told many people to read "The report to Greco" many times. By first sight its a Christian book. But in reality its an agnostic book. Basides Kazantzakis was a Freemason and i believe that what they represent is agonsticism.
However Kazantzakis did believe in God, just not how we define God. He also believed that religions were another aspect of the "human condition" just like art, philosophy architecture and many many others. However he did caution about the drawbacks of organised religions.
I know that many feminists prefere nihilism. They do this because they feel religion is restrictive of the female gender. But this out of reaction really. This is the same like saying "I dont like wars and so I become a pacifist". Well while we all agree that wars are wrong, pacifism actually does nothing to prevent them. The Only thing that wil prevent wars is being prepared for them, just like the old roman proverb suggests.
Likewise. If religion is restrictive you do not goto nihilism because it is equally restrictive and it has many shorcommings itself. Religions are part of out civilisations and represent societies and even those who tried really hard to supress them failed because in reality they were trying to supress society itself. I will bet you money that when (not if) we discover alien civilisations they will most definately have a notion for God and they will have religions.
Now what was it that you said about guilt? I have seen people that do not feel guilt or they feel too little of it. Is there some kind of link between feminism and apathy? Is that the reason why many feminists get introduced to Budhism a religion that teaches that apathy is the higher state of being? But then again if you are apathetic towards what is afflicting a fellow human being does not that equate to cruelty? Stoicism is such a better option than the apathy of Budhism.
And here is one of the contradictions of feminism. While women are plagued hugely by current religious morality, many faminists choose either the opposite (nihilism) which will set them outside religion and fighting it (because religion is society), while others will try to counter religion with another... religion. But somehow very very few (if any) have even bothered to look at agnosticism as a proper alternative, one that actually negates religion with philosophy. And this is where religion will give way, because while religion is by definition dogmatic, agnosticism is by definition philosophical. And this is where religion starts to loose hold and the morals that are "restrictive" change towards more humanistic ones. This is also why the freemasons chose agnosticism which matured through renaissance and eventually led to the age of enloghtment.
Please tell me if I have made any false assumptions about feminist religious choices here Pam.
Mod
Hehe. It's a joke Georgios. At least here in the States it's an essential part of being Catholic. Catholics confess all the time bc they are burdened with being human.
Well... Kazantzakis wrote somewhere in The Report to Greco that "Sin is only what holds us back". Thats actually hoe i remember it. Might not be the exact quote.As for being Human: There are a lot of things that are pretty damn good about being human. We simply do not realise them. And they all fit right in with what we call the "The human condition". The ability to turn our shortcommings to advantages. From our mortal nature to our need for food, sex, water, sleep, companionship.
talk about off topic, if part of being fourth wave feminist is inclusiveness and to expand the debate. I would say Emma is doing great as a feminist and so is OSS :)
I think she wants to stand for something positive and simply wants to erase the misunderstandings about feminism and its goals. Anything beyond that is speculation and, realistically everyone will sway within their daily actions regardless of their stand on social etiquette. She is not a robot. Also, even within this group it's inevitable for there to be different representations of what a true "feminist" should be
Sam wrote: "I think she wants to stand for something positive and simply wants to erase the misunderstandings about feminism and its goals. Anything beyond that is speculation and, realistically everyone will ..."And there's no problem with having different representations of what a feminist is. The important thing is that we all pull on one rope to get our societies more feminist.
Ross wrote: "talk about off topic, if part of being fourth wave feminist is inclusiveness and to expand the debate. I would say Emma is doing great as a feminist and so is OSS :)"
She has catapulted herself into history books already with launching the HeforShe campaign:) She's doing fine!
Keith wrote: "Ross wrote: "talk about off topic, if part of being fourth wave feminist is inclusiveness and to expand the debate. I would say Emma is doing great as a feminist and so is OSS :)"I was trying to ..."
Amen to that, Keith!
As all people are not the same all celebrities are not the same. Gloria and Bell and now Emma have something in common they took what they were given and made it unique and different.Ask what heforshe is and people that know will also know Emma and her work being instrumental in its inception.
Emma continues to innovative with her MTV speech bringing the fourth wave to life.
I have said it before knowledge is important but action is more so.
what Emma what anyone can do to change the world is encourage others the power celebrities have is what we chose to give them. How they use that is not about age, knowledge even experience. its about character Gloria, Bell many other amazing women and now Emma.
In the final analysis our, Emma's motivations don't matter what we do what we change to make a more equal world does.
Gerd wrote: "See here for TERF:http://transadvocate.com/terf-what-it...
or here in German:
https://missy-magazine.de/blog/2016/1...
The for..."
It's allright Gerd. It just came to me what TERF actually means:
Terminally Enraged Retro Females
Emma is an inspiration and has made me a better person today as well as many other people. Not directly but she encouraged me to become a feminist as well as many of my friends and I am now proud to be called one. I now am true to myself and have stopped trying to please everyone because she has taught me that i can't please everyone. Feminism is such a strong subject to talk about nowadays as some people take it the wrong way and mix us up with people that want us to be superior to men. Emma put the word out with the HeForShe campaign that there is a difference. Without Emma, I don't think as many people would be inspired to be a feminist as she has shown us how wrong it is that women are treated differently to men.
Georgios, TERF is radical extremist. like yourself in MRA's you should go bowling so similar in outlook and argument, odd really given you are diametrically opposed.Phoebe you are a woman after my own heart :)
Ross wrote: "like yourself in MRA's"MRA:
Mail retrival Agent?
Moscovite Revenge Agents?
Mineral Repositioning Anode?
Moral Re-Armament?
I think she is a really good feminist: she has worked for promoting gender equality by promoting recognition of everyone's rights, also she has showed the world the true face of feminism and that this movement doesn't want women to rule the world, but to have the same options in life for everyone. About the topic of her, representing a Disney princess, I think she chose wise, Belle is the onlyone that rescues the prince instead of being rescued, she also recognized the good in someone who was rejected, in some way, by society and made the best out of him, also she gave a good twist to Bell, making her an inventor and also was a reflection of what girls who want to do whatever they want, have to endure all around the world: rejection because it is not a girly thing.
About the photoshoot, I really can't see the trouble she has the rights over her own body, she can do whatever she pleases with it, and that is what feminism is about, to have domain over yourself.
Ross wrote: "eorgios, TERF is radical extremist. like yourself in MRA's you should go bowling so similar in outlook and argument, odd really given you are diametrically opposed"All i can say about this Ross is that you yourself are so biased and your critical appraisal is so impaired that you cannot understand what is proper argument and what is not. What makes you think that your own arguments are right, apart from self-righteousness?
Why would the ones who are opposing your own views and your narrow field of view be wrong? You claim that you are curious by nature, but I see that you completely lack the proper way to acquire knowledge which is the scientific method. But from what i see thats not all you are lacking. You seem to be ignoring three thousant years of philosophical evolution, which arm you exactly with that critical appraisal. And so even if you manage to extrapolate some kind of knowledge, all it will be without the wisdom granted by a proper critical appraisal, is wickedness I also You appear to be compassionate, but you are only compassionate towards women. And that is not real compassion. That is aversion towards men.
Just like Victor Frederick Weisskopf “Compassion without knowledge is ineffective; knowledge without compassion is inhuman.” These both apply to you in a very strange way. You are ineffective towards women and inhumal towards men.
I must also point out that from what you have said so far you have displayed a strong tendancy towards accepting what Mrs Watson has to say with no critical evaluation. To me that is exremely problematic, and shows me that you are capable of nothing more than the "oh Emma you are the best" and "Oh Emma, you rock", "Oh Emma you are absolutely right" kind of comments made by potterheads.
And since the original topic of this thread is "Mrs Watson as a feminist", may I point out towards the critical fact that Mrs Watson is not actively participating in this forum? I mean it's Her own forum and all we see is introductory letters about the selected books. Why cannot she write opinion articles and post them in this forum? She has done so at least in one occasion in Facebook, and i though that the article was quite good. She should be writing an article every week, or couple of weeks
One last thing Ross. There might be a lot of people agreeing with you in this forum. however that does not make you right. This just makes a lot of people from this forum wrong. Something else that you need to consider is that this forum is not being watched only by feminists and associated groups. This forum is being watched by a large number of people, even if they are not participating in the discussion. They see what you write, I can tell you that much for sure.
Georgios wrote: "Ross wrote: "eorgios, TERF is radical extremist. like yourself in MRA's you should go bowling so similar in outlook and argument, odd really given you are diametrically opposed"All i can say abou..."
May I just remind us all to behave ourselves?
MeerderWörter wrote: "May I just remind us all to behave ourselves? ."What exactly are you refering to, my nice and calm sea of words? :-)
Georgios wrote: "Ross wrote: "eorgios, TERF is radical extremist. like yourself in MRA's you should go bowling so similar in outlook and argument, odd really given you are diametrically opposed"All i can say abou..."
I just add something:
Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance.
Ignorance is bold and knowledge reserved.
Honestly, I was not surprised when I found out Emma was a feminist, and I think it's amazing. It's great that Emma is stepping up and talking about what she thinks is right and inspiring others to do so. She's not only an actress, not only a feminist, she's both and many other things. She shows that women can do anything. Also, she's proving that feminism is not only a movement by women for women but that everybody can get involved. Not many people know that and it's really important and interesting and I think she did a great job. Some people don't like it - it's the sad truth. Some people would've preferred she wouldn't get "caught" in what they call "that feminism thing", because of prejudice - and prejudice is just ignorance. I'm glad she did all of this regardless of what others might say. I'm happy she chose to do what's right and not listen to those who only know how to criticize. I think a lot of people - and I'm not only talking about the young girls and boys that might follow her on social media, but also adults - learned a lot, and regardless of the fact that it made them change their mind about feminism, it sure made them think, and that's always good.
Obviously a lot of people still refuse to believe in feminism, or even in the fact that there are actual inequalities out there between men and women. I think it's awesome that Emma and others are spreading an important message. There is so much hate in the world right now, and we can't let others silence us. We have to let our voices be heard. I think Emma manages to do that.
Agnes wrote: "I just add something:Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance.
Ignorance is bold and knowledge reserved"
I see it somehow different. Knowledge is extracted through the scientific method. The scietific method itself has it's limitations.
It's exactly because of these limitations that we also need Rationalism in order for the knowledge gained from the Scientific method to have any sense.
As for the "ignorance is bold and knowledge is reserved": Cool. Stoicism :-). Its also something that was said by Thucydides, one of the first Sceptics and father of the scientific method in History. Please do not forget to mention the name of the people who you quote. They deserve as much. If you do not do it it's Plagiarism.
Greatest testament to Emma as a Feminist is her results. Where we are now OSS is but one example of where the debate on equal rights for women and the expansion into the fourth wave Equality movement is being discussed. The debate is once more in the mainstream; discussed from Parliament to pub and all points in between. For that alone the original question, remember that, has been answered.
Besides what is more important is what sort of feminist you are in your life not anyone else's even Emma's.
Ross wrote: "Greatest testament to Emma as a Feminist is her results. Where we are now OSS is but one example of where the debate on equal rights for women and the expansion into the fourth wave Equality moveme..."I totally second you on your last sentence, bloody nowadays radical feminists are so annoying.
Ross wrote: "Greatest testament to Emma as a Feminist is her results." "Flattery. If Mrs Watson takes what you say seriously then that's a rather serious character flaw which can be exploited by those with ill intent.
Ross wrote: Where we are now OSS is but one example of where the debate on equal rights for women and the expansion into the fourth wave Equality movement is being discussed.
The debate is once more in the mainstream; discussed from Parliament to pub and all points in between. For that alone the original question, remember that, has been answered. "
Self Importance and self deception from your part ross. The tell-a-tale sign of megalomania and delusions of grandeur.
"MeerderWörter wrote: "You can't compare Emma with Gloria, who is now in her eighties and had way more time to understand and think about the issues that are at stake."Emma Watson is such a big inspiration for me as a teenager and as a feminist, but from my point of view, we shouldn't compare them, they are both active feminists, as they both fight for women's equality.
On one hand, Gloria spreads feminisim through articles. On the other hand, Emma promotes feminisim through her roles in films, interviews and her reading club "Our Shared Shelf".
The final aim is to spread feminism and equality. Anyway, I hope Emma finally becomes a big reference in feminisim issues, as Gloria is.
When I was a young girl Hermione Granger was my role model. Now Emma Watson is. She is a smart woman fighting for gender equality. That is what it means for me to be a feminist. I am amazed by all she does and am grateful for this book club for feminists. I will never understand why taking a topless photo is anti-feminist. She is comfortable in her body and not ashamed to show us. I loved her in the role of Belle. I read a lot about how she was fighting to make the character more modern and feminist. I admire Emma Watson and hope she keeps up the good work.
Emma's dedication to educating herself, learning and growing as a feminist, and trying to become a better person are what make me admire her. While she has definitely done/expressed problematic things, I respect that she makes an effort to learn from those issues. Most of us are in that same boat of trying to learn and grow as feminists and as people in general, but we get to do our growing in private. I admire how she handles herself in public, even when she fumbles along the way.
No matter your stance in the result of the UK election the encouragement of young people to vote was key. The feminist Emma Watson was instrumental in that because making a difference is what being a "good" anything is about in the end.
🌟Emma Watson as a feminist?🌟Why are we even commenting on this? On her?
🌟Who are we to judge Emma's belief and perspective of Feminism to her? I wouldn't do that to any woman. I think Emma is intelligent, respectable and a beautiful soul. I look up to her and I think she is making great impacts in the feminism community!
🌟But this entire thread seems rather irrelevant, rather than scrutinising how one inspirational woman defines feminism we can discuss actual import issues prevalent in modern society!
⭐️🌟⭐️
Test! "Test!"... "Test!"... "Test!"... "Test!"...Cool. This place has good echo. "echo"... "echo".... "echo"...
I find that it creates interesting sounds with a herd of sheep inside. "Inside"... "Inside"... "Inside"...
I don't know much about Emma Watson's feminism, honestly. What I know is that this forum, the reading and the discussions (which I follow more than I participate) have brought me back to reflecting about a lot of things and to read books about feminism (not only those proposed on this "shared shelf". Plus I enjoy a lot to read posts from very different people, women from all over the world. So this initiative alone makes me appreciate Emma Watsons activity. And honestly I don't care very much if she is an "example" otherwise. Good occasion by the way to say "thank you" to all who work to get this shared shelf going!
I'm glad she's standing up and taking lead :)
Emma Watson is the reason why i'm a feminism . She have so much inspired me with her feminism speech and her quote . With Hermione Grange who told me it cool to be a bookworm and to be bossy . With Belle who is inventor , assertive and confident . With "Our shared Shelf " her wonderful book club . Emma Watson is a true feminism , she is a good model for girl . I hope she never gonna changes ...thank Emma
Why are we Feminist or not is the question. Emma made her case not it is our turn.
Although i find her to be an honorable human being for using her strong platform for a very important social cause but i have a huge amount of criticism over some of her activities such as advertising for hillary clinton so there can be a female president for america , that was truly a mistake and it was against the foundation of feminism which its objective was to defeat sexim and emma watson went against all of that with those speeches , the goal that feminism is trying to reach is to create an environment so that no one be deprived of anything because of their gender and also no one will be given anything simply because of their gender , advertising for someone to become president simply because she is a female is respectfully a misunderstandment of the feminism itself .
Ross wrote: "Why are we Feminist or not is the question. Emma made her case not it is our turn."I totally agree with you Ross!
Ashkan wrote: "Although i find her to be an honorable human being for using her strong platform for a very important social cause but i have a huge amount of criticism over some of her activities such as advertis..."While i readily admit that i havent read or seen every interview that Emma has done i dont recall her stating publicly that Americans should vote for Hillary. I do think she was pulling for Hillary to win because it would of been a historic moment but as far as saying people should vote for her because she is a woman isnt something that i personally saw with her. I did see video of Steinem doing that however so maybe you are attributing that to Emma?
James wrote: "Ashkan wrote: "Although i find her to be an honorable human being for using her strong platform for a very important social cause but i have a huge amount of criticism over some of her activities s..."https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mEjUc...
watch 3:25
Ashkan wrote: "James wrote: "Ashkan wrote: "Although i find her to be an honorable human being for using her strong platform for a very important social cause but i have a huge amount of criticism over some of he..."Yea, i saw that but as i said i think she wanted Hillary to win on a personal level but she doesnt really state "why" she wants her to win. I think the video there is far different than Steinem's "If you dont vote for Hillary you are a traitor" statement. With Emma she never explains why she wants Hillary to win only that it would be a historic moment. For all we know she may have believed that Hillary was the best choice based on her experience in politics.
James wrote: "Yea, i saw that but as i said i think she wanted Hillary to win on a personal level but she doesnt really state "why" she wants her to win. I think the video there is far different than Steinem's "If you dont vote for Hillary you are a traitor" statement. With Emma she never explains why she wants Hillary to win only that it would be a historic moment. For all we know she may have believed that Hillary was the best choice based on her experience in politics"James there are a couple of issues that need tobe adressed here. First of all Mrs Watson is only 27 and that in terms of poltics is rather young. So her critirion for choosing Hilary was that she was a woman. That's really wrong in my opinion. But as things in politics are feminists did support Hillary. The result was that the main body of voters, who are white men, did not recieve her that well. When the issue with the e-mails came up its created a significant backlash. But the way for this was paved when Hillary was percieved as a candidate from an extreme pressure group as Feminists. If you ask me the criterion in politics should be political accumen, political speech (meaning political logos, political thought) character, ability, honesty and a number of other things. Hillary was in the Gray area for quite some time, not to mention that the many celebrity endorsements actually drove people away. It was a bad campaign for her.
And to tell you the truth, when the campaigns started I said that America is in great trouble because it has to pick the best of two really bad choices. Eventually I even declared my support for Hillary because I noticed that Mrs Watson and a bunch of other people supported her (a certain foxey comes to mind), and I did this against my own political criteria. After the election was over and Trump won and the reasons of Trumps vitory were apparent I was like, "Why did I follow a 27 year old and a redhead girl political criterion, instead of my own? I know politics much more than they do". If you ask me, now that I look back at the election the best choice for America would have been Sanders. Instead because Hillary used influence and her power within the establisment you got Trump. Well congratulations. I am a little pissed at that.
This debuckle however made me doubt and look more closely at issues regarding feminism. I though "Yes Mrs Watson might have all the good intentions in the world. But what if she is wrong about feminism?" You can see the danger in the responses above. There is a huge number of people who would follow someone with celebrity status blindly, without questioning anything. And thats a big problem today if not a threat. Celebrities, who we do not really know if they are fit to take the lead position in a movement, pulling people towards certain movements.
I will point something esle out. In another thread a feminist noted that they have people thinking and coordinating what direction teh movement should make. When it comes to politicans you know who their advisors are and what they represent. But I would very much like to know who are the ones making the decision for the feminist movement and what their ideas are. And at the end of the day who ever said that its possible or even reasonable to substitute politicians with celebrities?
James wrote: "Ashkan wrote: "James wrote: "Ashkan wrote: "Although i find her to be an honorable human being for using her strong platform for a very important social cause but i have a huge amount of criticism ..."you might be right on the count of personal choice based on her political knowledge which then can be criticised based on the political history of america and hillary clinton's role in it but again my criticism is for the feminist perspective one , if you notice she passionately state's "first woman to become president " and in other parts of that video she talks about all the first female something in somewhere , which of course is a very easy thing to misunderstand about feminism and i'm sure someone as bright minded as her will eventually understands that , i hope that she spends some time on these posts here in this group so she would hear our criticism on her which i hope she finds constructive and not offensive .
I'll have to get back to Georgios comment a little later as I'm on my phone currently and at work. But as to your comment o understand your point but for me personally I'm very wary of assuming things when it comes to people's intentions. I think it's a mistake to try and decide how someone feels about someone when they themselves have not elaborated on the subject at hand. you could be correct in your assumption but you could also be wrong. I just know for myself that I have not heard or read why she felt the way she did so to be fair I don't want to go that route myself. as to whether or not she posts on here I don't it will happen for many different reasons as I've stated elsewhere on here so if I were you I wouldn't count on that.
What's a TERF?
Top entering roof fishboat?
Timidly Effected Revolutionary Friends?
Triangular Empathic Round Fiends?
Tetrabolic Epirionic Roustinical Flometers?
Also something that Solon said when he interviewed Croesus: Apparently Croesus was very happy with his wealth and his good fortune that he was becoming rather arrogant about this to the point of hubris. Eventually Solon said the very wise proverb: "Do not call someone blessed untill you see how they end".
Steinem had a very hard upbringing and she was missing a lot of things when she was growing up. As she said herself this gave her a good way to understand the inequalities and the problems of society. It actually does her a lot of credit that in no way she has become a man hater.
I Will not compare her with Mrs Watson. This simply is not right. I will not even set a target for her to become another Gloria Steinem. She has to become what she thinks she must become, not what we think she must become.