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Killers of the Flower Moon: The Osage Murders and the Birth of the FBI
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I would have been satisfied with parts 1 and 2, but part 3 really was the core of the book for me- what evil men do.
This was such a sad and frustrating part of American History that I had never heard of! I seethed throughout the first and second sections and was horrified by the third section. The second part, combined with how reviled Hoover was by many of my parents' generation, really makes me want to read more about him and the developments touched on here. The amount of information that was lost, ignored, or covered up and the fact that so many families never really knew what happened to their loved ones made me so very sad.
I have this reserved at the library and REALLY hoping that it comes in in time
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If I am remembering the dates correctly, the settlements that the US Government made with the Indian Nations and the Osage Nation in particular came at the end of the 1800 and beginning of the twentieth Century. This was not that long after the Civil War in the 1860's which was fought so that all men were deemed equal, yet the government was essentially stealing from the Osage Nation by overseeing their mineral rights because these people were considered incapable of doing this for themselves. Am I missing something here?Seriously the politicians of this period were thieves and murderers. Books like this one are a breath of fresh air. At least someone has gone to the trouble to expose them for what they were.
Just finished "Killers" and have to say that this is a powerful, stunning story. As we were listening (I audiobooked this one), my husband and I discussed that we had heard of this story, buried way back when, but didn't realize the extent.I think he may have sensationalized the end of the story somewhat with extending the number of deaths into the hundreds...but no one really knows how many people died and whether their deaths were intentional or not. I think it is very likely that if the gang highlighted in the story worked out ways to swindle the money of their wards, including murdering them, then other people worked out ways to exploit the Osage as well.
At least the Osage did receive some compensation from the government for the flagrant mismanagement of their finances, but there is no compensation for the lost family members and lost history.
Powerful story
this FINALLY came in at the library (I opted to reserve ebook, print and audio...the ebook and audio have like 60 reservations still)...so can't wait to read it
I really enjoyed this book! I thought it was fascinating history and very well written. Like others on this thread, I had never heard of these murders. I found the level of corruption to be really disturbing! (It reminded me of the Al Capone days in Chicago. Everyone could be bought for a price or intimidated by violence.) It is a very sad story with so many lives being affected. It is hard to believe now that SO LITTLE was done, as people were dying mysteriously left and right. Sadly, it's another part of the tragic treatment of our native Americans in the US. I rarely read true crime stories but this one was good enough for a 5 star rating from me.
I decided to read this one because of all the media coverage about the FBI lately, but I ended up being more intrigued by the awful murders than the information about the beginning of the FBI. I think the government has treated Native Americans horribly, both by taking their lands etc, and then by the lack of justice/caring when these awful things were happening. It's remarkable how complicit the movers and shakers of the region all appeared to be. It's an important story that deserves not to be forgotten, and this author definitely did it justice.
i was completely engrossed by this book and horrified by the treatment of the Native Americans. I was especially horrified to learn how deep and long the injustices and murders occurred in the Osage Nation. What a shameful reflection on white men and those in positions of authority. I keep thinking about heart-broken Mollie sitting alone and stoic in court while her world collapsed.
Mod
..."
and how horrible to realize that all her relatives were being murdered so that she would inherit their rights and then could be murdered herself.
Sandy wrote: "Connie (Ava Catherine) wrote: " I keep thinking about poor Mollie sitting alone in court while her world collapsed. ..."
and how horrible to realize that all her relatives were being murdered so ..."
Exactly! What a tragedy.
I found myself staying up way to late last night finishing this (which is why I am already dragged butt at work this am - yeah, I know its only 7:40...). I'll admit that this was going to be my backup read because I inititally planned on reading The Underground Railroad but when it came down to it - on the night I first was looking at which one to read, this is the one that caught my attention. I'm really enjoying (for lack of a better word), the new interest in long-forgotten historical events that changed history (like the Linear B tablets or the women in Hidden Figures) and this book should be added to the pile. I've studied very little native American history (in fact, I learnt more in one of my sociology classes than I ever did in a history class) - but this isn't something I'd ever heard of. Yet I wasn't surprised to see the lengths that white "protectors" went in order to profit from their charges - it was disgusting...
I'm sure i'll have more thoughts as I write a full review but 4 stars overall
This was such a well written story of one of the many shameful actions of our country. I appreciated the fact that it highlighted some of the good people who were attempting to help/bring to light in the face of the corruption and evil that was being done to the Osage people. The fact that Mollie's pain was so easy to relate to, and with all the descendants today still affected truly made this a must read for all.Like Dee, I have been enjoying the new interest in historical events, discovering unknown events that really should have been in the forefront of history. If history could always be presented in these colorful and powerful stories instead of just a list of facts in the classroom, I would like to think we would all be in a better place right now. Our history is not something to be covered up and hidden, but is filled with lessons to be learned and hopefully not repeated.
I am hardly up on my current events in this area, but just moving back to AZ after all these years and some of the headlines in the paper, we still treat them as if they are incapable of managing for themselves. There are still housing, education and medical issues plaguing some of the reservations here and the Federal monies are doled out and still controlled for them, and even if a few of them are involved, the amount of corruption is still occurring. While this in no way compares to what was done to the Osage, we're still treading in troubled waters.
I listened to this one on audiobook and I was initially a little confused as to why there were three narrators...until it got clear to the start of part III and realized that Grann had set up the book so that "Mollie" started the saga, "Tom White" investigated the crimes, and "David Grann" pulled back the layers of history and exposed the story to light again. Very clever.I was absolutely riveted. I had known a little about how the discovery of petroleum fields under the Osage reservation but had NO idea about the system of allotment, or the corrupt "guardian" system, let alone the murders committed in an attempt to gain the headrights of tribal members. Such a cold-blooded and merciless conspiracy - and, even worse, committed by people who always proclaimed themselves on the tribe's side. I was glad to hear at the end of the book that the Osage won a lawsuit to recover some of the lost funds from embezzlement and mismanagement but that victory doesn't bring back any of those killed outright or through negligence. This is a story that should be taught in schools.
I hadn't read David Grann before, but I think I'll seek out a few of his older books now.
ohhh interesting way to approach the audiobook
I was so excited to see Killers of the Flower Moon chosen as one of the Group Reads this summer challenge! I got the book in March from Book of the Month Club but instead of reading it then, I decided to save it for summer. I have been interested in true crime ever since I read Helter Skelter back in the 80s. I like the psychological aspects of these true crime books. This was such a well written book and read like a mystery novel. I am from North Texas and I have never heard of this story until now. We sure never had it taught in our schools! The story of the birth of the FBI is secondary to the Reign of Terror those the Osage Nation went through. I do admit I liked Tom White because his courage and dedication to his job were rare in those days or any days really. I am also proud that the first Indian FBI agent, John Wren, was from the Ute Nation as I also lived in Utah and graduated from the u of Utah. Our mascot is the Utes and we do a lot with the tribe and they always come to our football game once a season and perform their native dances at halftime. . Next time I see them I will remember Agent Wren. I spent most of the book in shock that this happened and what David Grann found when he went to the National Archives in Fort Worth that these murders were not just 24 but there were probably people murdered in the hundreds! He did a fantastic job on his research with looking at public records, private records, Bureau of Indian Affairs records, personal correspondence, interviews.... must have taken him years to get this book done! I had no idea these guardianships existed. How horrible...it was a perfect setup for corruption and murder and for it to be so widespread, it just boggles my mind! I feel so sad for all those who were murdered, both the ones we know about and the ones we don't, and the survivors who lived to tell the tale. There should be some kind of compensation from the government for this horrific act! I got chills when I saw Haile's picture for the first time. He just oozed evil off the page! I hope that monster and Burt as well as their henchmen are all burning in hell without parole! I will never forget this book and the terrible things that happened to an innocent people who were murdered because of pure greed and hatred. David Grann was on The View and Charlie Rose recently but I haven't seen the videos yet. Doubleday posted them on Facebook. I also read in Playbill that there is a play being written based on this story and hopefully a production date will soon follow.
I loved this book. Aside from being a page-turner and beautifully well written I have to say that I wasn't familiar with this part of American history and was absolutely appalled by this horrifying story of abuse. It is truly horrible what human beings can do to each other being driven by greed and ignorance. You would think that people would learn from past mistakes but history repeats itself always taking advantage of minorities. I will always remember this book and it ill probably stay with me for weeks.
This book made me realize how little I know of American History. I had no idea that the US had no real federal authority or even police other than locals, many volunteer and just community members, for crimes like murder and kidnapping.The fact that this was all taking place in the early 20th century is really mind-blowing.
Fascinating and horrifying abuse and crime directed at the Osage Indians - and this occurred not 100 years ago. It was well-written and very interesting. I am so glad that I read it and add it to my list of important non-fiction. While I love a good novel, I like to pepper my reading with non-fiction that educates and informs me too.
I enjoyed this book thoroughly, although, as others have said it was shocking and I couldn't believe I knew so little about this series of awful and prejudicial murders. I think sometimes I think of these racist beliefs as ancient history, but this book opened my eyes to how recently something like this happened and how many of these beliefs still haunt us today. As a predominately fiction reader, I love finding a nonfiction page turner like this one!
If this had been a novel I would have said that the conspiracy was too widespread to be believable and the whole setup unlikely. As it was non-fiction, I am horrified that it happened. A very well written book about a shocking series of murders.
Wow! What can one say after reading about the horrific crimes and conspiracies surrounding the murders and theft for the Osage tribe members? Being somewhat familiar with that part of the country, it was very interesting to me. I enjoyed the detail of Gann's research and thoroughness in bringing to light all of the different layers surrounding this period of history.
I don't know much about American history having grown up and living in Canada, but I was astonished at how terribly the Osage were treated. I was enraged a lot of the time, especially due to the system of "guardianship". It felt like no matter what, the Osage were punished for just...existing.The events were truly horrific and I'm so angry that wealth and privilege were enough for Hale and his conspirators to get away with murder. I'm so sad for the Osage families today who are still dealing with the repercussions of these murders.
This book is both powerful and heart wrenching. It's well researched and reads like a mystery thriller which, I feel, makes it accessible to more people. People who might not necessarily read a lot of non fiction. And that's a good thing. The more people who know about this part of our history the better. I'll never understand the horrible things people do to others. I kept putting off reading this book because I knew it would be a tough read for me but I'm definitely glad I read it.
3.5*It started off w/interesting voice & detail...got bogged down & sidetracked from purpose (subtitle)...got back on track, but seemed lacking much detail about the creation of the FBI...got interesting again researching the bigger picture, but sadly unsatisfying (I sort of understand why, it's supposed to be unsatisfying because there was never any resolution for hundreds of people, but I was still not satisfied that the author & authorities left it at, "Oh well, nothing we can do now," though that is not much of a surprise). Overall, I did agree that it was readable (though I still found it dragged) and well researched. And I would feel a lot better about it, if it led to real change in the present! (See facts surrounding Standing Rock protest of Keystone Pipeline and the abuses occurring there as only one of many examples...the most public at the moment. I just have to add a 'shout out' to the Veterans who literally stood in blockade to protect civilians from physical harm; thank you!)
Thoughts on other comments:
I was raised identifying strongly with my Native American heritage, though I do not qualify officially, my mother's generation and my cousins do (both sides of parentage). I did not know the details of these events, but they were not a surprise. And I appreciate Peg's comment that there is still a LOT of corruption occurring.
Also, Andy's comment "Seriously the politicians of this period were thieves and murderers," struck me...as I often think of the corruption now as being more obvious & widespread...but the more I learn about history, it seems that nothing much has changed except it's easier to document & communicate ('the' value of the level of technology we have today imo).
What a stunning and sickening moment in history this was. I think the worst part of it is when you consider how many horrible people it took to do this. I suppose you would like to think that one monster is an anomaly, two a excess, but these crimes required a whole community of heartless, cruel, greedy bastards. There were barely any white husbands or guardians who were not there for the money, in fact, there were even white wives cited. These people would have been infinitely better off without the windfall, but how unfair is it that they could not get their due without risking their lives. They were as helplessly in the grips of this system as if they were children. I read this with the same horror and revulsion that you feel when you read that a kid was killed for his sneakers.
I feel it is important for each of us to know what has happened in the past. It should mean that it can never, ever, ever be repeated. Sadly, it does not, but what it might mean is that more of us will be vigilant and aware. Or, perhaps, we will say we are glad not to live in "those times" and close our eyes to what happens now.
I was far more familiar with Canada's horrific history with its aboriginal people that with the American experience. This was a very informative history of the Osage people who had "struck it rich" when oil was found on their land. However the white people of the time did not consider them real people and were resentful of their wealth. Conspiracy to take over their rights to their own money were not enough, and this lead to a community of people co-operating in dozens of murders to get control of their mineral rights.
The evolution of the FBI, brought in to try and solve these murders was also quite interesting, but bogged down the story at times.
Very sad that so many families never got the closure they were seeking
I got really lucky getting this book. My library will have some copies of new releases labeled as New Releases and Best Sellers, and those copies can't be reserved. I spotted it on the libraries "New" shelf, otherwise, I wouldn't be receiving it till the Fall challenge.Our history with Native Americans is horrific, and unfortunately, doesn't seem to be changing (Standing Rock). This is the first I've heard of the Osage murders. The amount of coverup, and the levels they went through to do so is astounding. It's heartbreaking that so much gets justified by people telling themselves that others don't matter because they are not deemed human.
I think everyone has summed up my feelings on the treatment of the Osage and native peoples well. This was incredibly compelling and I zipped right through it as soon as I started. I knew a little of the background, but not the entire story, which I definitely would not have believed without the in depth research that Grann did. His writing drew me in without ever telling me what to think, allowing me to have a real reaction to the information..As far as the development of the FBI, I found this to be a fascinating addition to what I already knew about Hoover and the FBI, however, I wouldn't consider this an origin story or even a very thorough accounting of the FBI's beginnings. Rather, this fills in some of the gaps and adds some context to Hoover's manipulations.
I will definitely be recommending this to those who like historical true crime. This is a story more people should know, as it brings context to current events as well as historical record.
I never think I'll like True Crime books (too grizzly) & then I read something like this and realize anew how immersive and compelling it can be. Like so many, this was all pretty new to me. I was riveted by Mollie and her trials - amazing to think of her powerlessness in many ways as everyone around her she trusted was killed or was a killer / attempted killer. That she was always the one no one expected to survive, but who outlasted all. Her sitting there in court. So powerful.
And of course it's just part of the ongoing systemic racism and othering that the Osage who have tried to tell the story themselves over the years haven't had their voices amplified. Nothing against Grann, who did a beautiful job, but it strikes me that #ownvoices is all the more important when it comes to telling not just new stories, but getting people to hear the stories that have long been ignored.
I am sorry to say that I knew nothing of this sad chapter of American history until I read this book. (The good news is that I had to wait all this time for the copy I reserved at the library to become available so I hope that means more people are reading and learning about it.) My heart broke for Mollie as I read how she was betrayed over and over. I thought the author did a great job of exposing the injustices to the Osage people and the attitudes of the white settlers of the time.
I also thought the explanations of how forensics were developing at the time was fascinating and followed on with an earlier group read "The Poisoners Handbook". But I didn't think that this really told us all as much about the birth of the FBI as the subtitle implied.
I was one of the lucky one's who managed to get this from the library before the long waiting list arrived when everyone realised it was finally in. This was one of those books that i did not give a rating for as i think the true-life events that this book capture's is too immeasurable to put on a 5 point scale.
I think David Grann did an excellent job in bringing together all the evidence and backstory in a way that was compelling to the reader (or at least this reader!). It was also interesting as a non-American to hear about the early start of the FBI and to gain some insight into the personality of J Edgar Hoover.
As could be seen from the final chapter, the prejudices and battles the Osage's face are still very much an ongoing issue. I hope it help's not only the Osage's but other American Indian tribes in the ongoing battles they still face to get their history out there to a wider audience.
I think this is a chapter of American history that should be discussed in all American schools and not swept up as it appears to have been until this book was released.
This was an engrossing account of a little known incident in US history. David Grann did a first-rate job in conveying the helplessness that Mollie and the other victims must have felt in the face of such ruthlessness and corruption. I like the way he wove the narrative of the investigation with the back story of the investigators, victims and the perpetrators.
Our history is what it is, and we should acknowledge both the good and the bad. We should never shrink from confronting the issues that show us in less than our best light. We can't change history by pretending it didn't happen.
Those who do not remember the past are condemned to repeat it. --George Santayana
for anyone who hasn't read a group read yet this challenge, Flower Moon is 99p on kindle daily deal today (25/08/17)
I wasn't thrilled with this book at first -- though I was really interested in the topic, and enjoy true crime in general, at first it felt all over the place. As the story developed, I felt like the writing gained more focus too and by the end I was sad to reach the final page. I did really appreciate learning more about a time in history that I really knew nothing about. I agree with everyone upthread -- how horrible! Not surprising, exactly, given the U.S.'s shameful history with Native Americans in general, but sad.
This was a very good true crime book: the first two sections read like a well-written thriller, until you stop to consider that these were real people and real crimes, at which point the true tragedy becomes apparent; and part three shows just how much larger the tragedy was, than was even believed at the time. The focus on Mollie and her family gave the whole sorry saga a “face”. On top of that, the systemic corruption of the guardians, as the Osage weren’t considered “competent”, added insult to injury and murder. I found myself almost cheering on Tom White and his men as they tried to get to the bottom of what was going on, although even then, they only managed to prosecute a fraction of the guilty parties. Overall, though, I was left with a feeling of sadness and frustration at just how much remains unresolved.
I have to admit, the more US history I read, the angrier I get at the treatment of both Native Americans and Afro-Americans (I also read The Underground Railroad this challenge): neither were really considered to be “people”. So much for “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal...” Despite all the progress in civil rights in the latter half of the 20th century, watching the US now, it seems to be heading back to the old ways, and that’s frightening.
Here's hoping that Grann's book will make sure that this incident doesn't find itself back in the realms of forgotten atrocities.
As a side note, back in 2008 I visited the skywalk over the Grand Canyon, which is on Hualapai land. The tribe has done a lot to develop the area, and its bringing them in actual revenue. However, it was notable that on the way there, there was a twelve-mile section of unmade road between the state highway and the Hualapai land, which the state refused to maintain. I have no idea if it’s still like that, but at the time, the impression I was left with was that the state had decided to make it difficult for the tribe, as they resented the Hualapai actually having managed to build something decent - other than a casino. I know its not in the same league as wholesale murder, but it does seem that the prejudice against Native American success is alive and well.
Closing in on the end of this one...audio books always take me a long time, as I have to squeeze them in during my 20-minute work commute. I'm not complaining about the commute one bit, but I do wish I had more time for audio books! I was able to find this one on Scribd, so I didn't have to sit on my library's waiting list.This story is just amazing. I can't believe I never heard about it before, as it was apparently huge news at the time. I had no idea that the Osage nation had so much wealth from oil money in the early 20th century. There is some poetic justice in the land returning some riches to them, even if it didn't last. I like true crime books, and I have found this one to be well-written and well-researched. Only three more chapters to go till I'm finished.
As a person originally from Texas, I was also interested to hear that the FBI hired so many ex-Texas Rangers in its beginning. That explains a lot about the culture of the FBI, even today. ;)
So many emotions listening to this book. Mostly anger. And rage. At 10% I didn't know if I could continue on because it made me so angry reading how poorly the Osage were treated. And knowing this was a true story, this actually happened, that those people were so driven by greed to do such horrific things, was heart-wrenching. I loved how the audiobook was done with the 3 narrators telling different parts of the story. I believe it made more of an impact, especially the first part from Mollie's POV, and made the "characters" more relatable/more human/more real. I'm not a huge fan of non-fiction but this read more like fiction than non-fiction so it didn't lag for me and kept me engaged until the very end.
Our history is ugly and there's still so much that hasn't been highlighted but this story is one I won't ever forget.
Two places that really got me in this book:1) where Hale and White run into each other at Leavenworth years later, after the murders. I found this really affecting, for some reason.
2) the last chapter of the book, where the author makes clear just how widespread this pattern of corruption and murder was. It was chilling to suddenly get that bigger picture. That was a LOT of people murdered for their money, many of whose murders were never investigated or prosecuted. And it was all done so casually.
I'm glad I read this. I'm recommending it to others. It's a shame that this story isn't more widely known. It's an even bigger shame that Native Americans still suffer unequal treatment in the US.
Queen Bee DarleneI just finished this powerful book. I had never heard of the Osage people which of course I've also then never heard of the murders. There is nothing more that I can add that has not been said very well in the comments above to convey how both saddened and outraged I was to hear this story. The corruption of government did not surprise me because I believe it still goes on today.
The book was very well written. It read like a novel unlike his other book, The Lost City of Z which I slogged through.
The Seasonal Reading Challenge
Books mentioned in this topic
The Underground Railroad (other topics)The Underground Railroad (other topics)
The Poisoner's Handbook: Murder and the Birth of Forensic Medicine in Jazz Age New York (other topics)
Killers of the Flower Moon: The Osage Murders and the Birth of the FBI (other topics)
The requirement for task 20.10: You must participate in the book's discussion thread below with at least one post about the contents of the book or your reaction to the book after you have read the book.