Reading Envy Readers discussion
Readalong: East of Eden
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East of Eden Week 1 - Chapters 1-9
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I could really picture the setting in my head after reading the first chapter. He really goes in to detail about the flora, fauna, topography, etc., and that's interesting because it all comes in to play throughout the book. The movie showed this visually, but the image I built in my mind of the Salinas Valley from Chapter One was more detailed and sweeping.
Chapter 8 begins: "I believe there are monsters born to human parents." I was wondering where Steinbeck was going with the novel after most of it had been about the Trasks up to this point. Wow. As the chapter continued on I became more and more flabbergasted by the manipulative and psychotic behavior of Cathy Ames. What a great villain. Events turned against her in the following chapter but I was looking forward to reading about more of her shenanigans in the following 500 pages!
Jeff wrote: "Chapter 8 begins: "I believe there are monsters born to human parents." I was wondering where Steinbeck was going with the novel after most of it had been about the Trasks up to this point. Wow. As..."Yes, the snake in the Garden of Eden, so to speak. Cathy is a really fascinating (and creepy) character
Some random thoughts and questions for the first 9 chapters:1. When the multitude of Hamiltons got introduced I had a moment of panic on how to keep track of them all. Then I decided not to keep track and let the story carry me. So far so good but we'll see if I get confused later.
2 Cathy and her 'hint of a smile' gave me the creeps, but definitely gave the first 100 pages the tension for the reader to keep going.
3. I'm confused by Charles and Ada's relationship. Do they like each other? Hate each other! Or is it something deeper that keeps Adam coming back to Charles? I'd love to hear everyone's thoughts!
I am really enjoying the novel and have just finished part 1 .It is definitely biblical in scope and I keep wondering if I should read the story of Adam, eve, Cain and Abel.
The character of Cyrus was particularly cold and some of the confrontations with his son's were tough to read. I wonder how someone who was not particularly heroic in the war rose to such an elevated position in the military. That simply seemed to be a given!
The conversation between Adam and Charles when Adam did eventually return to the farm was a brilliant juxtaposition; Adam does not love his father but believes his acquisition of riches and stories, yet Charles loves his father but doesn't believe his father.
As for Cathy Ames , I can only say that as a villain I am loving her story but a definite shocked face as I put down part 1 this morning over my toast.
Andrew wrote: "I am really enjoying the novel and have just finished part 1 .It is definitely biblical in scope and I keep wondering if I should read the story of Adam, eve, Cain and Abel.
The character of Cyrus..."
I've read this twice before and was particularly struck by that conversation you mention in light of considering the original Cain and Abel story. Steinbeck's take on Charles'/Cain's feelings toward the father versus Adam who simply accepts the created "mythos" while willingly ignoring reality/truth. This is a fascinating part of each character's personality. Is this Steinbeck commenting upon Genesis, just using it for his own purposes, or something else?
I enjoyed the description of the setting in Chapter 1, I felt I could really visualize Salinas.Liked the story of the fathers; Cyrus and his long con, that with considerable self education turned into a nice career and contrasted nicely with Samuel who's a very clever inventor but never manages to make monetary gain. The Cain/Abel - Charles/Adam biblical take will be interesting to follow.
Can someone explain to me why all the women are either religious, humorless, sad and bitter but with good housekeeping skills or lazy, slovenly whores (who don't mind being beaten) and in the case of Cathy completely evil. If this is Steinbeck's view of women it must have been fun being one of his 3 wives.
Mary wrote: "I enjoyed the description of the setting in Chapter 1, I felt I could really visualize Salinas.
Liked the story of the fathers; Cyrus and his long con, that with considerable self education turned..."
Mary, you make a really good point about the female characters. That was something that was bothering me, too, although I couldn't put my finger on it.
There is one particular part that gave me pause:
Now, I know he's in the process of describing the extreme antisocial qualities of Cathy's character, but I wouldn't necessarily correlate asexuality with sociopathy. This quote felt like a moment of weakness for Steinbeck—a glimpse into a limited (and possibly tormented) understanding of human sexuality. Or perhaps it's just more biblical commentary?
Liked the story of the fathers; Cyrus and his long con, that with considerable self education turned..."
Mary, you make a really good point about the female characters. That was something that was bothering me, too, although I couldn't put my finger on it.
There is one particular part that gave me pause:
What freedom men and women could have, were they not constantly tricked and trapped and enslaved and tortured by their sexuality! The only drawback in that freedom is that without it one would not be a human. One would be a monster.
Now, I know he's in the process of describing the extreme antisocial qualities of Cathy's character, but I wouldn't necessarily correlate asexuality with sociopathy. This quote felt like a moment of weakness for Steinbeck—a glimpse into a limited (and possibly tormented) understanding of human sexuality. Or perhaps it's just more biblical commentary?
I loved the introduction of the Hamiltons, particularly Samuel. He is a great patriarch. I, too, decided not to try to keep track of all of the characters and just let the story unfold organically for me. I think this approach has worked for me throughout the novel. Cathy's character is quite chilling. I am holding my breath every time she is in a scene.
Also, I can't help but marvel at Steinbeck's great storytelling skills. What a talent to be able to create such a sweeping tale of humanity and do so with such vividness and realism. Wow. I am sorry I haven't gotten to this book sooner in my reading life.
That's a really interesting issue Mary and Sara have raised about the female characters so far.Cyrus's first wife (and I have just looked is unnamed as Mrs Trask) of course drowns herself in a puddle in about two or three paragraphs, not sure if I blame her .
Adam admits to having a squaw at one point who did his washing and mending of clothes, was kind of soft and sweet and despite Charles thinking he was lucky she didn't put a knife in him died of smallpox.
Then they also mention a schoolteacher who shows some ankle and the other women drive her off.
I wonder other than Eve how prominent women are in the early books of the bible.
I confess my knowledge of Steinbeck's biography is limited - I didn't even know he had three wives. I did read this book and Grapes of Wrath as a teenager but have forgotten a lot of the story in both but also wonder how well he did women in Grapes of Wrath and his other works.
My Penguin classic edition has a long introduction but I am hesitant about reading that as more often than not although informative they sometimes give away plot points.
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I never ever do, but it might be interesting in the end.
Andrew wrote: "That's a really interesting issue Mary and Sara have raised about the female characters so far.Cyrus's first wife (and I have just looked is unnamed as Mrs Trask) of course drowns herself in a pu..."
The Bible is actually surprising for how many women get their own stories told and how assertive some of them are in getting their rights. Tamar, for example, goes to extraordinary measures and outwits the family patriarch in the process. (Too long to quote here, but if you want to read, it is here in Genesis 38. There are numerous other such stories where women star. For the times in which it was written, it is, as I said, extraordinary.
Julie wrote: "Andrew wrote: "That's a really interesting issue Mary and Sara have raised about the female characters so far.Cyrus's first wife (and I have just looked is unnamed as Mrs Trask) of course drowns ..."
Thanks Julie.
Amy wrote: "Some random thoughts and questions for the first 9 chapters:1. When the multitude of Hamiltons got introduced I had a moment of panic on how to keep track of them all. Then I decided not to keep t..."
I felt the same way and I had to go back once or twice to refresh my memory but overall I was able to keep track.
Elizabeth☮ wrote: "I loved the introduction of the Hamiltons, particularly Samuel. He is a great patriarch. I, too, decided not to try to keep track of all of the characters and just let the story unfold organically ..."I thought it was interesting that he wrote "I must depend on hearsay, on old photographs, on stories told, and on memories which are hazy and mixed with fable in trying to tell you about the Hamiltons" but seemed to know all kinds of trivial facts about the Trasks. The Trasks soon become the main characters, of course, but I was wondering why he introduced the Hamiltons this way.
I agree. I feel like The Hamiltons are not the main focus early on, but I am curious to see how everything ties together.
Elizabeth☮ wrote: "I agree. I feel like The Hamiltons are not the main focus early on, but I am curious to see how everything ties together."The Hamiltons are John Steinbeck's ancestors. When I took a trip to Salinas to visit the John Steinbeck museum, we visited the Hamilton gravesites. He wrote this book for his sons. He weaves a lot of biographical things in here. Mary and John are his sister and him. He loved his sister dearly and the museum has lots of letters he wrote to her.
Thanks Carol. It took me a while to make the connection. Isn't that silly? I kept wondering who are narrator is in the book.I would love to visit this area of California some day. Steinbeck is the only writer that has a museum exclusively dedicated to him (does that seem right?). I went down a rabbit hole looking into his life once I made this connection.
Sara wrote: "Mary wrote: "I enjoyed the description of the setting in Chapter 1, I felt I could really visualize Salinas.Liked the story of the fathers; Cyrus and his long con, that with considerable self edu..."
I agree. I don't think there is a relationship between asexuality and sociopathy. I think the real issue is lack of empathy or any kind of love for anyone else. When we read this book before, we were all stunned by how progressive he was to write about a woman being so evil. I don't think people really understood sociopathy at that time. I know people who still think we are all born the same and sociopathy is caused solely by a bad childhood. Bad childhoods can contribute or cause it but as he says, "Some people are born bad." What is really insightful of JS is to point out that some people refuse to see it and deal with it properly.
I've read this before but am reading it again along with cliff/spark notes for my own insight. I'll be careful not to report any spoilers. This week and next are difficult for me with lots of activities so I will report back later about the women being portrayed as dull, boring, evil or whatever. He does have a chapter later on his mother (Olive) and sister (Mary) who are portrayed lovingly. I took a quick peek at the notes and there is really nothing in there about his portrayal of women! I guess it goes back to the time period in which it was written, and in which he lived. Very interesting points Mary and Sara. He adored his mother and sister, you'd think he'd have more positive women in his book.
Carol wrote: "Sara wrote: "Mary wrote: "I enjoyed the description of the setting in Chapter 1, I felt I could really visualize Salinas.
Liked the story of the fathers; Cyrus and his long con, that with consider..."
Carol, thank you so much for bringing your insights!
I'm always nervous to discuss a book before I've finished it AND understood the writer's motivations, history, and context. I'm finding it so refreshing to discover a new-to-me book & author alongside such an astute group. Thanks, all!
Liked the story of the fathers; Cyrus and his long con, that with consider..."
Carol, thank you so much for bringing your insights!
I'm always nervous to discuss a book before I've finished it AND understood the writer's motivations, history, and context. I'm finding it so refreshing to discover a new-to-me book & author alongside such an astute group. Thanks, all!
Sara wrote: "Carol wrote: "Sara wrote: "Mary wrote: "I enjoyed the description of the setting in Chapter 1, I felt I could really visualize Salinas.Liked the story of the fathers; Cyrus and his long con, that..."
and believe me, I'm no english scholar. I'm a nurse who studied math and science. I read the cliff notes or whatever to pick up on the symbolism that I missed. And in reading this book, I could see that there were multiple layers.
I love how he interweaves topical essays into the fiction.
I also love how most of us so far are enjoying it so much and some are reading ahead!
Jenny (Reading Envy) wrote: "Andrew wrote: "My Penguin classic edition has a long introduction but I am hesitant about reading that as more often than not although informative they sometimes give away plot points. ."I never ..."
I wouldn't read the introduction. I did once for another book and it totally revealed the plot and a surprise I would have liked to enjoyed on my own.
Jeff wrote: "I could really picture the setting in my head after reading the first chapter. He really goes in to detail about the flora, fauna, topography, etc., and that's interesting because it all comes in t..."Agree! I also appreciated how his description of the landscape sets the stage for the mythical and Biblical qualities of the characters and their stories. In particular, I keep thinking back to these lines: "And it never failed that during the dry years the people forgot about the rich years, and during the wet years they lost all memory of the dry years. It was always that way". Amazing writing.
Carol wrote: "Jenny (Reading Envy) wrote: "Andrew wrote: "My Penguin classic edition has a long introduction but I am hesitant about reading that as more often than not although informative they sometimes give a..."Same here. I prefer coming into a new novel with little knowledge of the plot - like to be surprised.
Jumping in to say hi and I'm loving the book and discussion so far!Some parts of this first section that stood out for me:
The lecture that Cyrus gives to Adam about what it means to be a soldier - we take a soldier and put murder in his hands and we say to him, 'Use it well, use it wisely.'
Liza's piety and how she only read the Bible - In that one book she had her history and her poetry, her knowledge of peoples and things, her ethics, her morals, and her salvation. She never studied the Bible or inspected it; she just read it.
And of course the section about monsters as the intro to meeting Cathy - You must not forget that a monster is only a variation, and that to a monster the norm is monstrous.
It's beautifully written too, not at all a difficult read (so far).
You picked some great lines Marchpane. Those lines are very insightful for the characters.
The only other Steinbeck that I have read is The Grapes of Wrath and I'm finding it interesting how much this book differs from TGOW. His treatment of women is harsh, but I found that not to be true in TGOW. His description of Cathy is bone chilling. I have rarely read such a frightening character assessment. I'm scared for what she may ultimately do to Adam. TGOW was so much about the dialect of our displaced citizens and this book shows off Steinbeck's writing style extremely well. I loved TGOW and I am loving this book, too.
Sue wrote: "I'm scared for what she may ultimately do to Adam.." Just you wait! (bites fingernails)
AGHHHHH!!! I am one hundred pages from the end and I am on pins and needles!
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Jenny (Reading Envy) wrote: "I was just reading chapter 7 where Adam spends almost a decade "tramping" around, and it made me think of reading Orwell's diaries. What a time to be alive where you could live that way for a while..."Chapter 7 brought back memories of my Grandpa Carl's stories about tramping and riding the rails as a teenager during the Great Depression. Wish I had recorded his stories.
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Jenny (Reading Envy) wrote: "Ooh and I found this book that I have requested from the library: Journal of a Novel: The East of Eden Letters by John Steinbeck!"I think Scott mentioned this to me and then, of course, I forgot about It. It looks good!
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Yeah, that's the Steinbeck I know. Haha!
yes, I've been there. I went with six friends in a book club. Someone from the Board of Directors of the John Steinbeck museum met us for breakfast and discussed his works with us. He said that when JS was alive, Monterey was a working town. Now it has become an expensive place to live. He wouldn't recognize it. Then we spent a couple of days sight-seeing the places where his books took place. His house in Salinas is a museum in itself. You can go there for lunch and it is decorated just as it was when he was a child. But we definitely drove up and down the valley to see the two mountain ranges that he described. Cannery Row has kept the lab of the doctor as is. I don't think you can go inside but you can see what it looked like from the outside. Then, near the railroad tracks is a cool metal statue/mural of the characters from Cannery Row. There were lots and lots of fields of lettuce, artichokes, etc. growing. The architecture of the old buildings of Salinas is beautiful. You can definitely sense the time period in which they were built. Even though their purpose may have changed, you can still see its original purpose etched in stone such as "XXX Bank Building". The museum is small and always in need of donations from people like us that enjoy and respect his work! ;)
Sue wrote: "The only other Steinbeck that I have read is The Grapes of Wrath and I'm finding it interesting how much this book differs from TGOW. His treatment of women is harsh, but I found that not to be tru..."I read East of Eden first and was surprised at the difference in the writing of TGOW too. He wrote East of Eden near the end of his life so I guess his writing had matured. But like you, I still liked TGOW. Much of his work focuses on how there are some people that get chewed up in every society.
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Technically chapter 17 is not discussed in this thread!
-Your friendly moderator :)
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One of the reasons I wanted to read EoE next is that it is from a decade I hadn't read any Steinbeck. Travels with Charley is the 60s, Grapes of Wrath is from the 40s I think, I was interested to see if his style shifted by decade. That might be too simplistic!
Jenny (Reading Envy) wrote: "Sara wrote: "Okay, Andrew, can we talk about chapter 17 now? Holy moly!"
Technically chapter 17 is not discussed in this thread!
-Your friendly moderator :)"
Ahaha! Oops! This is why I should avoid Goodreads via iPhone browser. Thanks, friendly moderator! :)
Technically chapter 17 is not discussed in this thread!
-Your friendly moderator :)"
Ahaha! Oops! This is why I should avoid Goodreads via iPhone browser. Thanks, friendly moderator! :)
OMG! What a piece of work Cathy is. I can't wait to read more about her.
Sara wrote: "Jenny (Reading Envy) wrote: "Sara wrote: "Okay, Andrew, can we talk about chapter 17 now? Holy moly!"Technically chapter 17 is not discussed in this thread!
-Your friendly moderator :)"
Ahaha! ..."
Oh no, sorry if i caused the breach😕 Will have to hild our horses!
Andrew wrote: "Sara wrote: "Jenny (Reading Envy) wrote: "Sara wrote: "Okay, Andrew, can we talk about chapter 17 now? Holy moly!"
Technically chapter 17 is not discussed in this thread!
-Your friendly moderator..."
Not at all! I think it was your Litsy post that I was continuing.
Technically chapter 17 is not discussed in this thread!
-Your friendly moderator..."
Not at all! I think it was your Litsy post that I was continuing.
Sara wrote: "Andrew wrote: "Sara wrote: "Jenny (Reading Envy) wrote: "Sara wrote: "Okay, Andrew, can we talk about chapter 17 now? Holy moly!"Technically chapter 17 is not discussed in this thread!
-Your fri..."
I hadn't realised that jenny had opened a separate discussion now. I'll try and gather my thoughts before I post there. I'm not sure how I would of 'hilded' my horses anyway!
Jenny (Reading Envy) wrote: "One of the things I found most striking about this section is how Steinbeck describes the natural setting at the beginning. Has anyone else looked for images of this area, or have you been there?"
No, but it looks beautiful. Added to the bucket list!
Reading Envy Readers
Books mentioned in this topic
Journal of a Novel: The East of Eden Letters (other topics)Journal of a Novel: The East of Eden Letters (other topics)
George Orwell Diaries (other topics)
Steinbeck starts out with the natural setting, so that deserves some attention.
Then he moves to some characters in two families - the Hamiltons and the Trasks. This might be a good time to share/brag on any creative methods you've come up for tracking characters!
I'm making the executive decision not to require spoiler tags within each weekly discussion. This makes it a bit of an issue for those of us who read with a digest like I do, but please just scroll past. I have learned from other groups that it is too difficult to read stuff behind spoilers if you are using the app. So everything inside week 1 is fair game here!