ARCHIVE - MAY 2017 (May 8th through June 4th) - CUSTER'S TRIALS - DISCUSSION THREAD

[Vincent]

Chapters 11 & 12 - I would have commented after 11 but the lack of finalization from the court marshall made me go thru 12 also.

pos 255 - 257 what a cluster of charges against Custer in his second court marshall in six years. - it certainly illustrated a lack of modesty and empathy in this young officer whose main talents seemed to be courage, tactics and havoc.

interesting that Libbie wrote a memoir - she must have been an exceptional woman of that century.

Pg 269 the adaptation of horses of the Indians to the plains illustrates how Stiles, when he can, very well acquaints us with the cultures and life style factors in the environments we are moving thru in this story.

Pg 272 - Sherman calls the Indians the "enemy" - what chance did they have??

Pg 277 -para 5 payday lenders - they persist to this day around the military - sad commentary that the military is still plagued by them 140 years later.

pg 277 para 5 - Libbie's view of the protected existence in slavery .... certainly a myth promoted by slavers and Southerners then.

pg 280 - selfish Custer wants Libbie to cross unsafe lands to be with him. (glad he's not my son-in-law)

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Chapter 12

Grant under political attack seems to feel he must or can pass on adequate punishment to Custer for his offenses.

Sheridan brings Custer back who trains the men and aggravates them at the same time - What a pity this courageous guy could not have been fair

Privileged Custer went hunting daily with his dogs - I wonder if this was a standard type of liberty taken by officers in the field at that time.

It seems that Custer wants to find and make succumb Indians to vindicate himself - sadly killing seems to equal succumb.

Pg 312 - Sheridan plans "total war against the Indians"...

Pg 325 & Battle of Washita - the slaughter of Indians with the strategy of early attack on a village of non combatants - although Custer seemed to have not been killing all women and children the men were pretty much dead if he won and the Indians seem as "an enemy of our race" so the Democratic racist tendency of Custer towards Negros seems to extend easily to Indians.

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[Vincent]

Chapter 13
Well I never thought of the "Age of Grant" - and the changes coming Rockefeller, Morgan, Vanderbilt etc. I wonder that, although this was inevitable I think, that the priming of the industrial pump by the Civil War did not act similarly to the industrialization during WWII and the aftermath for us in the USA - we didn't, after WW II, have a west to settle but we had the free world with infrastructure destroyed wanting/needing to buy our production and feed the war build industrial structure. - I have to thank Mr. Stiles for that and more.

Pg 335 - Johnson devolution of the army makes me think of the Presidential dangers we face now in June 2017 - just a thought.

Pg 338 - interesting that Texas Longhorn steers were developed to thrive on grass alone - like the Indian horses.

1871 - Custer in New York - playing with the rich and dreaming to be such. mingling with lots of Democrats (McClellan included) and financial giants in his quest to raise money for his Crescent Mine venture in Colorado - not succeeding really and never seeming to realize that the mine had to be a working profitable venture for the real wealth of Wall Street to follow.

Through this time indulging himself in his New York lifestyle and treating Libbie poorly - shabbily and worse. He didn't understand business as he didn't seem to really understand managing men.

He made a deal to write of his adventures and shows his flexibility to try and succeed at many things but he never seems to have worked at anything much except fighting.

I'm thinking he would be a great dinner guest - but maybe also Eliza and or Libbie but each of the three alone. But I think that Custer would meet up with Ben Franklin's saying on visitors if he stayed for three days.

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

I agree that Libbie must have been exceptional and she certainly thought that Custer was too although misguided.

You are right about the comparison with Johnson I fear.

It would be interesting Vince to go back in time and actually be able to judge these folks yourselves. Nowadays - we have the videos, the tapes, all sorts of media - television, podcasts. I wonder what future generations will think when they listen to our current leaders. Or watch the Comey proceedings for example. But what has really surprised me was the depth of politics involved with the appointments and the ranks in the days of Custer and the Civil War/Indian Wars. Did that surprise you? It did me.

[Vincent]

Bentley wrote: "I agree that Libbie must have been exceptional and she certainly thought that Custer was too although misguided.

You are right about the comparison with Johnson I fear.

It would be interesting Vi..."

Thanks Bentley -
I am constantly surprised at the additional details and facets of a time that I can learn if I can keep my mind open and have the time.

I was/am surprised at the depth of political influence but wonder how much of that was the great Civil War and our first draft. When there were generalships to be gathered I am sure it rose from the pre-war days.

I don't recall it in reading about Geo Washington, Jame Polk, etc etc.

If we don't start to teach and establish an orientation towards civics and government - if the Koch brothers and their ilk continue as they are - what will our democracy be?

Sorry I am so far behind - we took a week birding at Cape May and my environmental activities continue to take time.

But the book is really mind opening and worthy - Thanks

[Vincent]

Chapter 14 - the Writer
Well this chapter is more than the "writer"
So Kentucky - a non rebelling state - was the home of strong black suppression by 1870-71 - and the "Enforcement Act" passed by Congress were aka the "KKK Act" -mostly to no avail

Amos Ackerman as Attorney General used a "secret service" to investigate and this was it seems the forefather (or foremother) of our current Secret Service which Wikipedia says was formed in 1865

Poll taxes - terrorism etc used to stop Black voting and the repressive culture seemed to fit with with GAC's (George Armstrong Custer) values and public positions

GAC had long absences form his post and he was an anti Grant presence per Stiles (which I believe) - I think GAC was insulated by his notoriety and that led to his hosting a Russian czar hunting trip likely more insulating him.

Adelbert Ames was also posted to KY and tried to help equality and fairness.

My notes are that Ames = liberty, justice, courage

GAC = tradition, oppression and selfishness

Interesting the pgs 366 - 367 of the growing presence of magazines and newspapers (I subscribe to both the Atlantic and the Nation - not enough time to fully read) and it makes me question the literacy rate in America at that time with such success for these many enterprises

Custer in his writing seems to have tried to establish the lack of civility of the Indians and to try to establish himself as an intellectual - a failure per Stiles - likely I will agree.

Pg 373 para 6 - hmm... i never heard of the Bierce short story "an occurrence at Owl Creek Bridge" and I will try to read it but I am curious if others also did not know of this story "a vital American classic" also or if I just am less exposed to some parts of American literature.

[Aloha]

An Occurrence at Owl Creek Ridge was required reading when I was in grade school. My very first memory of American literature.

[Vincent]

Aloha wrote: "An Occurrence at Owl Creek Ridge was required reading when I was in grade school. My very first memory of American literature."

interesting - of course i finished grade school 60+ years ago and maybe forgot - I will get it and read it.

Interesting as your first memory - was /is English your first language - may I ask? - and what literature may have proceeded it in your life.

So much to read so much to understand.

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

No problem at all Vince - Cape May is a great spot for birding. I agree our democracy needs involvement and a community spirit which is based upon ethics.

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Aloha wrote: "An Occurrence at Owl Creek Ridge was required reading when I was in grade school. My very first memory of American literature."

Don't forget the citation -

by Ambrose Bierce

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

The Atlantic is a great magazine with a powerful history. Here is a little blurb from Wikipedia:

The first issue of the magazine was published on November 1, 1857.[5][6] The magazine's initiator and founder was Francis H. Underwood, an assistant to the publisher,[7][8][9] who received less recognition than his partners because he was "neither a 'humbug' nor a Harvard man".[10] The other founding sponsors were prominent writers, including Ralph Waldo Emerson; Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr.; Henry Wadsworth Longfellow; Harriet Beecher Stowe; John Greenleaf Whittier; and James Russell Lowell, who served as its first editor.

Source: Wikipedia

[Vincent]

Chapter 15 -the Enemy
So interesting aspects of Custer's life- moving with bird-dogs etc. - the liberty of a western US military officer or Custer took the liberty - pg376 - also that page is the indication that Custer wanted to be rich.

Pg 377 so he is still writing and I guess he was a good writer and I will try some- he was certainly versatile - maybe that was the nature of what men were at those times - think of the range of activities (commercial) of Lincoln or Grant etc

Pg 377 para 3 - noted a "modest education" of Custer - in the 1870s I barely think that West Point was a modest education -

Pg378 the beginning OSaf the negative attitude of Lt. Larned towards Custer -but these seem to indicate the thoughts of an already vain man and these young men had been being called "sir" virtually all their adult life's by all the enlisted men -

Pg 380 Libbie back to Monroe -lots of. Traveling or this lady and lots of time away from hubby.

Pg 382 Stanley (custer's commanding officer) write his wife that Custer is "a cold blooded, untruthful & unprincipled man" - I think I agree - maybe GAC would have been better suited on serving in an administration in the second eighth of this century.

Pg 389 - interesting observation-the horse too k the Indians out of poverty - that they were fighting each other and the military virtues of the Lakota. The 1866 ambush where they wiped out 80 soldiers.

Pg 399 the second battle of the BigHorn solidifies GAC again as a capable military leader in battle -GAC is restored to favor

Libbie inMonroe worries about Custer but is ambitious for him and seeks her stature thru his successes

The Panic of 1873 - Stiles manages to really explain it on a somewhat personal basis in few words

Then GAC uses his writing talent and fame to help out the Northern Pacific - so his talents must have existed if not his virtue.

[Vincent]

So I come to the end -
we see that Sherman/ SHERIDAN, others saw the extermination of the indian as a reasonable rational goal. that's may be sadly what America was (and is?)
Grant's inability to manage the government led to a dilution of his ability to protect the negros and the panic of 1873 seems to have made him an early lame duck.
GAC was in New York and DC and seeking personal wealth and recognition and ignoring his military duties. And he politically & personally promoted "southist" views and values.
He was however impressive I think as a writer - and still as a fighter soldier (so he could lead me in battle and plan battle - but could he really inspire and manage men - especially with only readiness the need not fighting?)
Before the Little Bighorn it seems that most were discontent with GAC's self centeredness.
Epilogue - at Little Bighorn
It seems Custer knew he would face "at least 2500 indian fighters"
he was preparing for a normal - not stand and fight Indian responses
It seems if Benteen had followed orders Custer might have been saved - or lost in a battle costing more men (the Benteen group)
What a blow for the Custer family - GAC, Tom, Boston & Autie Reed
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Benteen - disrespectful - insubordinate
Reno - if so drunk????
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Eliza reappears - led a successful life it seems

Libbie rises to the hour - faces GAC's debts - works, becomes a writer - moves to and stays in NYC - she died in 1933 - only eleven years before I was born. (somehow I think of these "western characters" as far before me - (except Roy Rogers and Gene Audrey and Tom Mix etc)

[Vincent]

This is a really good book - gives one history and makes one think

It reveals a man who from late teenage hood arrives at a career in the military and pursues it in a selfish life style.

A brave and good battlefield commander and fighter but seemingly lacking in other positive traits.

His best personal decision in his life per the book seems to be Libbie - his wife.

Stiles gives good images and understanding of values of the time - of the characters, the big names in America, and the society segments. It is very well done.

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Vincent - I also think that especially at that time in history - West Point was not a modest education.

The tribe was a very interesting one - I had not heard about the Lakotas as much as other tribe.

I think Custer had to have been a very complicated man.

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Yes, I too blame Benteen - but Reno is a very close second. It is amazing when you think that these folks who had long lives but experienced these times - were not that far removed from present day.

Very true - he made a great decision with Libbie. And I think he knew it too.

Excellent book and great comments and observations Vincent