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Custer's Trials
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ARCHIVE - MAY 2017 (May 8th through June 4th) - CUSTER'S TRIALS - DISCUSSION THREAD
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This is the Week Two Reading Schedule - May 15th through May 21st
This week's reading includes Part One - RISE and Chapters 5, 6, 7, and 8 - this week's reading concluded Part One. Pages assigned are from 107 through 210
Part One - RISE 1839 - 1865
5. The Women 107
6. The General 134
7. The Hero 157
8. The Victor 182
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At the beginning of the chapter we meet Lydia Ann Reed who is Custer's older half sister - she is 14 years older than her younger brother.
This might be a photo of her: (according to a genealogy entry)
This memorial was found written at her death:
http://monroe.lib.mi.us/sites/default...
I also found this great photo of General Pleasanton and his staff - Custer is at the far right beside the general.
I am including the link so you can get a closer look at this wonderful photograph: (when the photo launches - just click on the photo and you can move it around for a closer look) - fabulous photo
https://www.nps.gov/common/uploads/ph...
Also General Sheridan and his staff - Custer is at the far left:
Source: The National Park Service
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Stiles writes - "To quote Eliza Brown, Custer's cook and all-around household manager, this photo illustrates "what the war was for," i.e. freedom. Enslaved people who escaped to Union lines were known as "contrabands," following Maj. Gen. Benjamin Butler's declaration that he wouldn't return escapees because, if the Confederates said they were property, then they were "contraband of war." McClellan tried to avoid disrupting slavery, but it was the enslaved themselves who foiled his conservatism. Historian Steven Hahn calls the Civil War the largest slave rebellion in history."
Discussion Topics:
1. Lydia (Custer's sister) stated the following to Custer - "All they that take the sword will die by the sword." Why did Lydia give this admonition to Custer and was this ultimately the case? What did Lydia try to impart to her half brother? Custer tried to use Lydia as a go between - what bothered her about how her half brother was using her?
2. On page 107 - Stiles wrote: Armstrong remained a creature of the senses - not the spirit. What was Stiles referring to?
3. What did David Reed mean when he said to Libbie - "If you don't know his feelings, he doesn't know." - page 116
4. On page 117 - Stiles writes - "His true love was the war itself."
What is Stiles telling us about the character of Custer? In choosing a wife - do you think that Custer was an "opportunist"?
5. What are your thoughts on the story of Eliza Brown? Stiles writes: "Her world was invisible, until the moment she destroyed it." "What the war was for" - what did Eliza think the Civil War was for and what did the North and the South think it was fighting for?
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Hi this is Vince from New York who has finished now only the first weeks reading - I have read comments up to msg 154 and decided to now make my first section comments before reading on.As for Bentley's initial questions-
Discussion Topics:
1. How many of you have read Stiles before? Or is this the first book by this author for you?
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First Stiles book for me
2. Before reading this book, what did you know about Custer if anything? When did you learn about him and in what context?
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I knew a bit about Custer having had him appear in many readings but only primary in my first read Stephen Ambrose book "Crazy Horse and Custer" which I would recommend highly - although it is probably about over 30 years since I read it.
3. How many of you have read some Russian literature and have read Tolstoy? If you haven't been introduced to him, you should be - you would be in for a treat. What does this epigraph have to do with the book and Custer? Why do you think that Stiles chose this particular quote to describe our protagonist?
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I have not successfully read Tolstoy - looking for a translator that works for me. The Epigraph can be what Stiles sees as the underlying theme of Custer's life - to Custer - and maybe one has to finish the book to decide how much one agrees but our first few chapters lays a foundation for that.
I also note that Stiles really tries to present the mores and standards of the time to give things a truer perspective - very positive
Beyond these first three questions I see that our friend and leader Bentley has posed questions in ten more messages and that I made notes of six messages from other participants that I will try to respond to but I may run out of time.
Thanks to all for you commentary - all very interesting so far
Thanks to Bentley for all his work as usual.
byStephen E. Ambrose
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Stiles is a very detailed and nuanced writer. You will find a lot of sidebars which are very interesting.
Happy to have you along Vince.
Just switch the photo of Ambrose to go first after the word by and then the author's name as linkable text.
I am starting "The Victor" chapter. The Women:
They had limited roles to play due to societal limitations. Lydia found solace in religion and tried to show her brother, Custer, the "true happyness" of religion and the church. She lived by the rule of the Bible and believed Jesus' words, "All they that take the sword shall perish with the sword." However, Custer found joy in adventure and the senses in all its forms.
He was romancing two women, Fannie Fifield and Libbie (Elizabeth, who was to be his wife). Of course, there's the double standard of not wanting "used" women but only virtuous women, but liking to bed "easy" women. Libbie was raised a proper lady and had little option to her but to find a good mate, so that was her main interest. She lived through Custer.
Libbie and Lydia were not that interesting to me, typical white women for the times. I was most interested in Eliza Brown Davison, an escaped slave and Custer's house maid. Interesting detail on her son, John Brown, who may or may not be her son, who may or may not be the product of rape. Since black families were so fractured due to slavery, it was common to create a family where you can get it, so John Brown may be an adopted son. Also interesting is her devotion to Custer and her cause against slavery. There were details on how she was caught by the Confederates, who were ordered to seize captured blacks as property, regardless of their background. She was invisible because her life was to be subservient to the needs of her white employer but destroyed her invisibility when she decided to stand against slavery.
Vincent, you would find the Tolstoy book I mentioned interesting reading and with a great translation. The words flowed beautifully.Hadji Murad. The Raid. The Cossacks
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Aloha wrote: "I am starting "The Victor" chapter. The Women:
They had limited roles to play due to societal limitations. Lydia found solace in religion and tried to show her brother, Custer, the "true happynes..."
I agree that the women in the book "fit their role due to societal limitations." However, I think Eliza Brown Davison and Libbie break those roles. Davison is very independent and skilled in handling people and protecting herself and her son. I think she was a strong woman who knew how to make the best of her situation.
Libble surprised me when she got to Washington. She took on the role of taking care of the politics of war and helped Custer in maintaining and improving his rank. I think she was more independent after she left Michigan and went to Washington whit Curster.
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Aloha this is how we do citations.
by Leo TolstoyBook cover, by, author's photo and author's link - we do not use the title as a link.
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The Women:
They had limited roles to play due to societal limitations. Lydia found solace in religion and tried to show her brother, Custer, the ..."
Eliza was a very independent African American woman and Libbie did too.
Be careful of comments which might go ahead of our reading and use spoiler html or post on the glossary thread.
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The Women:
They had limited roles to play due to societal limitations. Lydia found solace in religion and tried to show her brother, Custer, the "true happynes..."
Excellent post Aloha - great insights into the personage of Eliza. I wondered at the name of John Brown too and the exact relationship.
I will give you the same heads up - we are only reading through the end of The Victor for this week so be careful of spoilers. If you want to read ahead there is the spoiler html or the glossary spoiler thread.
Jim wrote: "Aloha wrote: "I am starting "The Victor" chapter. The Women:
They had limited roles to play due to societal limitations. Lydia found solace in religion and tried to show her brother, Custer, the ..."
I agree with you about Libby. There was a passage where it was revealed that she became very reliant on Eliza to the point that she did not know how to do some domestic chores. I wonder which of the women are most stunted as a person due to the roles they had to play?
Bentley wrote: "Aloha wrote: "Vincent, you would find the Tolstoy book I mentioned interesting reading and with a great translation. The words flowed beautifully.Aloha this is how we do citations.
[bookcover:Ha..."
Thanks, Bentley. BTW, I am done with the reading for this week. I won't read ahead.
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The funny thing is that those qualities actually makes a better public servant than someone who is natcissitic like he who shall not be named.
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You are on to something - a public servant should not be considering me first. Women were used to being the loyal background support system keeping the trains running on the homefront. There is something to be said for that.
I had to pop in because it's been quiet. Thought I wasn't getting notifications. Looks like we haven't gone beyond the Women chapter.
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Okay. Didn't want to get ahead of people. Thank you.
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Hello everyone. I sort of fell slightly behind. I am reading the second week still. Hats off to Bentley! I honestly have never seen a more thorough and well prepared book discussion in all my time on GR. To be honest, I'm pretty sure one could cheat, not read the book and only read the thread. This is my first BOTM with this group so don't mind my lurking. I'm still getting my feet wet, so to speak.....lol. Thanks Bentley.
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Don't be afraid to post - we are always here. And thank you - thank you - thank you.
I really don't know how Custer lived through the Civil War. He lead his soldiers into battle and fought next to his men. In addition, he wore bright colors so his men could follow/him in battle. Although I think he like the bright clothing and the style.Somehow he lived through some of the toughest battles. Amazing!!
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Syllabus and Reading Schedule
This is the Week Three Reading Schedule - May 21st through May 28th
This week's reading includes Part Two - FALL and Chapters 9, 10, 11, and 12. Pages assigned are from 211 through 328.
Part Two - FALL 1865 - 1876
9. The Executioner 211
10. The Politician 236
11. The Fallen 255
12. The Indian Killer 295
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9. The Executioner
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10. The Politician
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11. The Fallen
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12. The Indian Killer
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Here a few of my thoughts on the questions raised for chapter 5. Lydia (Custer's sister) stated the following to Custer - "All they that take the sword will die by the sword." Why did Lydia give this admonition to Custer and was this ultimately the case? What did Lydia try to impart to her half brother? Custer tried to use Lydia as a go between - what bothered her about how her half brother was using her?
Lydia might have given this admonition to Custer because of her belief that God alone could determine the end of days and apportion suffering for his own purpose. Lydia was probably trying to impart the horrors of war and her concern for her brother. She also may have been trying to get her to repent.
2. On page 107 - Stiles wrote: Armstrong remained a creature of the senses - not the spirit. What was Stiles referring to?
Stiles seems to be referring to the fact that Armstrong filled his heart with things that were things that give him temporary enjoyment like fighting, promotion, friendship, music, dancing, gambling, love and lust.
3. What did David Reed mean when he said to Libbie - "If you don't know his feelings, he doesn't know." - page 116
Reed may have been referring to the fact Custer still did not understand his true emotions,
4. On page 117 - Stiles writes - "His true love was the war itself."
What is Stiles telling us about the character of Custer? In choosing a wife - do you think that Custer was an "opportunist"?
I am not sure how to answer this question. Custer did pursue Fannie and Libbie for a long time, often appearing to use his love for one to make the other appear jealous. He probably believed, as many human beings do, that he could love both of them at the same time. He wanted to enjoy the experience of being loved by both women for as long as he possibly could. That is probably one of the reasons why he took so long to chose a wife-he did not want to have to decide.
5. What are your thoughts on the story of Eliza Brown? Stiles writes: "Her world was invisible, until the moment she destroyed it." "What the war was for" - what did Eliza think the Civil War was for and what did the North and the South think it was fighting for?
Eliza realized long before any political leaders that the war was about freedom for the slaves. That is the reason why Eliza left the only home she knew to travel long distances toward a war. That is vastly different view of the war from Custer, who often seemed to view the Civil war as more of a game to be played. . I do not think he agreed that the war was about ending slavery.
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I think you have a very good idea about Custer.
It is odd but even Lincoln was not initially fighting the civil war to abolish slavery. But for Eliza that was the whole purpose she and other African Americans honed in on and ultimately the right thing was done.
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Syllabus and Reading Schedule
This is the Week Four Reading Schedule - May 29th through June 4th
This is the Week Four Reading Schedule - May 29th through June 4th
This week's reading concludes Part Two - FALL. Chapters 13, 14, 15, 16 and the Epilogue. Pages assigned are from 329 through 460.
Part Two - FALL 1865 - 1876
13. The Financier 329
14. The Writer 354
15. The Enemy 376
16. The Accuser 407
Epilogue 441
Steve wrote: "Here a few of my thoughts on the questions raised for chapter 5. Lydia (Custer's sister) stated the following to Custer - "All they that take the sword will die by the sword." Why did Lydia give ..."
So folks I have just finished the second week of reading and read your comments up to May 22 and I choose to begin by commenting on this post by Steve
first I think we have to realize that Custer was 17 when he started West Point and up to the end of Chapter 8 he is still pretty young and - except for the war - not very worldly experienced
about Custer's choice of wife I think that he was both opportunistic and pleasure driven - he certainly had pursued all sorts of mentors and influence and a changing political opinion based upon who could help him.
Libbie seemed to be smitten with Custer and I assume there are a goodly number of letters and other references that Stiles worked with. But she was an ardent and effective promoter of her husband.
Eliza is one of the most interesting characters in the book so far - for her I agree that the war was about freedom for the slaves. Steve says she traveled toward the war - and that is true but while that location was "war" to Custer and Grant etc it was "freedom" for the African Americans.
What the war was about was different for different people - for Custer I think it was about succeeding at what he was good at.
I have to wonder if the typical Northerner was fighting to free the slaves or to end the oppression. Was he/she/they so concerned about the individual negros or about the morality of enslaving them?
In this second part we learned a lot about how the war was fought - how Custer seemed to be able to see what were bad tactical approaches and mostly avoid them likely contributing to his avoiding death or serious injury.I was surprised at his writing for promotion to members of congress. Maybe that was necessary at the time. Certainly with all the conscripts in what was I believe the first conscription in the US I would imagine that members of congress were more involved especially since so many troops arrived as State militias etc.
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Lydia (Custer's sister) stated the following to Custer - "All they that take the sword will die by the sword." Why d..."
Vince - great comments - most historians do not feel that the North entered the Civil War thinking about or for the abolition of slavery - sure there were a group of staunch abolitionists that were against slavery but even Lincoln himself at first was OK with allowing the South to function as it had. It was later after the onset of the struggle that these ideas took form in the way that they did and we all know that was ultimately good for the country itself. And years later - we were able to have our first Black president which we never would have had without the struggles of the Civil War and of folks like Eliza.
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I too was shocked at the depth of the personal politics involved with the military at that time. That you had to write to Congress - can you imagine. But then again young boys do write to their Congressmen today for appointments to the military academies.
But there seemed to be more jockeying for position back in Custer's time and he was fairly ambitious too.
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I finished the book. Well written and informative. What struck me are the misperceptions and difference of values that contribute to racism, the thought that African Americans and Native Americans are inferior races. One of the major values of the settlers include being opportunitistic in expansion. This caused them to think that Native Americans and African Americans are lazy and lack the intelligence to be opportunistic. The settlers' opportunistic glee made them think that they are entitled to stomp on the other races because of their superiority, and that it's best to get rid of these annoyances. Documentation of history glorified the settling of America, but they do not often document the stomping of others to "make America great". Custer, with his ambition and narcissism, embodies such spirit. He appeared gallant and rose quickly through the Union ranks, but is reckless in his philandering, treatment of his men and stock market gambling. Although he's a Union soldier, records have shown that he has little interest in fighting against racism. It's more from ambition and love of fighting that he's led many fights for the Union.
As an aside, I'm reading a book by an art historian. I'm blown away by his analysis and writing. My search for books by him came up with this interesting book:
by George Kubler no photo
So since the time to read the book is over I will make my comments - to those interested - as I go and I just finished the Executioner chapter.So the inexperience and youth and vanity of Custer was set loose without a total enemy and without the lubrication of war to facilitate and hide his excesses.
That he would have "needed" to steal the beautiful horse is not feasible so he wanted to feed his ego. What might it be like - 17 to West Point - then to war at 21 and enlisted men of all ages "siring him"? His big decision was to get $28 a month at West Point and all else followed.
His inability to manage troops without the level of violence of the active war (in this case whipping and executions etc) comes through immediately.
And his efforts to better position in the regular army....for his brother too.
Referring a bit to Aloha's msg 190 but along with thinking on racism in this chapter (she wrote hers after finishing the book and I am far from there) I do believe that the feeling of superiority of the white race was rampant thru western civilization at this time. That the Europeans never embraced slavery on mainland Europe (no need for slave labor - for various reasons - no chance to gain lands by getting rid of native Europeans - sorry native Americans) just means that they did not have the opportunity to discriminate and abuse as American whites had and if they had the opportunity they might have been just as bad as we were (the we is vague as my family did not arrive in North America until the early 20th century) - which doesn't forgive or pardon oppression that existed of minorities in North American but maybe explains it a bit.
I am curious too if ethics was taught at that time at West Point.
So even knowing the ending I look forward to seeing the progression of Custer and Libbie and the cast of characters to the end.
More soon
Vincent, good analysis on Custer. Slavery existed in Europe up through Medieval times and Imperialism is common to steal riches and lands from native inhabitants of other countries.
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[bookcover:Esthetic Recognition Of A..."
Interesting.
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So the inexperience and youth and vanity of Custer w..."
Not sure if ethics was taught at West Point at that time - maybe one of the other readers might know
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It was an excellent book and glad that you read it with us.
Aloha wrote: "Vincent, good analysis on Custer. Slavery existed in Europe up through Medieval times and Imperialism is common to steal riches and lands from native inhabitants of other countries."
Thanks Aloha
I too have benefited from your comments.
I think that slavery in America was different than Europe. In Europe it evolved over centuries and was not necessarily racially oriented nor justified.
Also my memory says - pretty sure - did not check - that South Carolina was settled in part by plantation owners from Barbados who came to here to expand their plantations and they brought their slaves with them.
And America was relatively empty and slavery using bought, not conquered, Africans made for a large percentage of populations (of certain areas) being "imported slaves" and being a measurable part of the society - how many other western countries (I don't know of any non western by the way) actually wrote a governing document allowing for counting of slaves for political power purposes.
And I think the racial component of slavery here in such large numbers with the racial component has contributed to the long term continuing struggle to achieve equality.
I think also the continually opening west (Europe had really no available unsettled contiguous territory) made slavery a more important part of American developing history than in Europe.
I think that I have not stated this as well as I might have just having finished "The Politician" chapter in Custer there we see the viewing of slavery as more than a simple economic factory.
Thanks
Vince
So the Politician chapter is really interesting showing the thinking of many people of the era and again - to my mind - illustrating the immaturity of Custer (reminds me maybe of some of the young sports or music stars who get all the money and attention and then to some degree influence) Pg 239 para 3 - Stiles takes some editorial privilege "...Custer did the right thing..." - I haven't seen so many places that he has made judgments but maybe I missed them
pg 240 para 3 - Johnson opposes "a perfect equality of the white and colored races" -
pg 242 para 1 - the Manhattan Club supported Johnson - I was surprised that the north - with this as an example leaned so fast to support Johnson's thinking so shortly after the war
pg 242 para 2 - I now have a sense in perspective (maybe only valuable to me) when the American chess great Paul Morphy lived.
pg 243 para 1 - made me and my wife laugh at Custer's referral to weaning - but he must have been from time to time a funny fellow
Pg 247 para 4 - interesting to me that Grant and Seward and others joined Johnson on a campaign tour - the eventual explanation of Grant's discomfort explained it better - I think Grant was still in the military and maybe he sort of had to (I have read that our current President's choice of H R McMaster so head the NSA was easy as a military person still in the service had to obey)
Pg 250 Grant uses his popularity to restore order at one point but through the chapter Custer digs himself deeper and deeper into inconsistency and disloyalty to the goals of the Civil War while trying to enhance his position as I see it.
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Excellent points Vince - I hope some others join in and present their comments. Yes, McMaster did not have license to say no.
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You must have reached the end of the internet, Bentley.