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Custer's Trials
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ARCHIVE - MAY 2017 (May 8th through June 4th) - CUSTER'S TRIALS - DISCUSSION THREAD
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McClellan between Lincoln and Jefferson Davis - cartoon at the time
Chapter Four begins with a very interesting few paragraphs:
Stiles wrote:
"If Custer learned anything at McClellans' side, it was that the Civil War was political. Military strategy shaped national policy, but so did ideology, constituencies, lobbying, and compromise. Partisanship influenced the appointment of Volunteer officers, as did the personal politics of patronage and nepotism. Politicians and generals crafted networks of favorites and supporters in the army.
The irony is that the Regular Army had pioneered the principle of professionalism in antebellum America. It has systematized procedures, set standards for technical proficiency, required competitive bidding for contracts, and virtually invented professional training at the military academy. All this continued during the war; and, as the conflict dragged on, the president and the War Department placed greater emphasis on merit. And yet, a great war for national survival, fought by a mass of citizen soldiers raised by the states, inevitably turned political.
That did not shock Custer. It was the reality he had grown up with, it was the nature of the antebellum era. The American philosophy of government was summed up by New York governor and U.S. Secretary of State William L. March: "To the victor belong the spoils," Each new administration fired the postmasters, customs collectors, steamboat inspectors, and other federal employees and appointed political supporters. The economy, too, remained deeply personal, not institutional; the corporate landscape of technical experts, anonymous shareholders, and professional managers did not yet exist. Business consisted of human relationships, from the credit issued to customers by local merchants to the friendships and family ties that held together boards of railroad companies. The Union army was America under arms, functioning much as society functioned. Custer thought that valor might gain him attention, merit might gain him favor, but patronage would save him. "
Discussion Topics:
1. West Point was the first engineering school in the United States in 1802. The school was the plan of Thomas Jefferson. It was West Point that invented professional training. Since West Point fostered professionalism - how then did the great war for national survival turn political? Why was the Civil War political and what made it that way?
2. What do the antebellum years mean to you? Why did Custer believe that politics was the result of the antebellum era?
3. Why is it that federal employees find themselves out of a job just because a different party comes into power? Most of these jobs have nothing to do with and have no influence on the presidency.
4. Many generals have realized the hard way how political war and battles are when you report to a civilian Commander of Chief. MacArthur found this out, so did McChrystal and to a certain extent Petaeus, and so did General McClellan. MacArthur had his problems with Truman, Petraeus (a lot of self inflicted wounds) - but McChrystal certainly had fall out with Obama and McClellan during the Civil War had political fallout with Lincoln. Rumor has it that McMaster is having a time of it with Trump. And then there is poor Comey (although not a general). So this sort of thing continues. Why? Should politics determine the military strategy of a war or battle or should politics stay out of military strategy - period. Stiles implies it was inevitable - do you believe this to be the case?
5. What are your thoughts on this quote - Custer thought that valor might gain him attention, merit might gain him favor, but patronage would save him.
6. What are your thoughts on this Stiles' quote:
"Military strategy shaped national policy, but so did ideology, constituencies, lobbying, and compromise."
a) Is this still the case - if you agree - how does it and in what ways? Do you believe that at the time of the Civil War that military strategy shaped national policy as well ideology, constituencies, lobbying and compromise? In what ways?
More:
http://www.sparknotes.com/history/ame...
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McClellan opposed Lincoln in 1864 for the President of the US, Lincoln was reelected by a landslide
The following one looks like Putin with President Obama - look at the faces:
General McClellan with his commander in chief - President Abraham Lincoln
More:
https://abrahamlincoln.quora.com/Unde...
“The Small Politicians In Congress Cackling at General McClellan”
More:
http://www.marinersmuseum.org/blogs/c...
Shall it come to that? Anonymous, Pencil on paper, undated. "Lincoln carrying George McClellan in a wheelbarrow marked ARMY OF THE POTOMAC down the road to Richmond, Virginia."
Other:
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The Prodigy
Isaac P. Christiancy
More:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaac_P...
Discussion Topics:
1. As with all favors, the person accepting the favor is indebted to the one giving it. Why did Custer feel so adrift? Why did Custer personalize McClellan's removal as having anything to do with himself? How did he rationalize that writing these letters to folks who he knew in higher rank was OK?
2. What do you think of what Custer did to procure favor and friends - specifically Republican friends? What he being just smart
or was he being manipulative? Were these signs of ambition on the part of Custer? Or something else? Everybody does favors for folks - did you think this was unusual or the norm?
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The Prodigy
Custer meets Libby
Discussion Topics:
1. What are your comments on Libby and Custer? What did you think of Custer's charm offensive with Libby or lack thereof? For all of Custer's alleged charm - did you feel that he bungled their courtship many times?
2. Was the initial attraction Libby or the judge?
3. How would you describe Libby?
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The Prodigy
New Benefactor
Christiancy tries to assist Custer but is met with a roadblock. Politics again. Blair indicates to Christiancy that Custer's people are Rebel Democrats! Not Republicans.
And then Custer finds a new benefactor to replace McClellan:
Major General Alfred Pleasonton. Photograph Courtesy of the Library of Congress
Discussion Questions:
1. How did Pleasonton influence Custer's career and give it the boost it needed? Pleasanton spoke up for him and Custer became a brigadier general. How did Custer cope with this unexpected promotion?
2. Stiles said "that many things can be said about the contradictory Custer, but one of the most important is that he understood the battlefield. There he was at ease".
How does Stiles judge that Custer understood the battlefield?
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Stiles stated on page 95 the following:
"In the novel War and Peace, Tolstoy wrote that the French invasion of Russia in 1812 did not take place because Napoleon willed it, but because hundreds of thousands, even millions, of Frenchman desired it. In the midst of this masterwork of storytelling, Tolstoy paused to argue that the mass of humankind drives events, not those few who project the illusion of power, and who believe the illusion themselves.
Perhaps Tolstoy went too far- but he would have been close to the truth if he had been writing of the American Civil War. Yes, high politics and historic issues produced the conflict; yes, decisions by politicians and generals changed the course of events. But it was only a war in the first place because the American people wanted to fight. They volunteered by the millions for years of combat; they demanded offensives and decisive battles. Even those who never enlisted applied themselves to logistics, military transportation, and weapons technology -- inventing ironclad ships, new pontoon bridges, and repeating rifles, for example. Then there were African Americans, who conducted what one historian has called the greatest slave rebellion in history. They risked death to desert to Union lines by the hundreds, then thousands, then hundreds of thousandths. In the end, what happened on factory floors and plantation fields, in town square meetings and polling places, mattered more than any general's orders."
Discussion Topics:
1. What are your thoughts on this very powerful passage in Chapter Four?
by
Leo Tolstoy
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This is your discussion - so jump right in and respond to the discussion topics or make up your own.
I have completed the deep dives of the Preface and Chapters One through Four for this week. Let us talk about any and all of these topics for the remainder of the week. This week - the assignment is up through 107 and through the end of Chapter Four.
Messages 8, 9 and 10 gives the assignments for the weeks coming up.
Next Monday begins Week Two.
RM wrote: "Doubledf99.99 wrote: "Hello all, I'm Dave.I read this book last November and have been a reader on Custer since the late sixties, and this book by T.J. Stiles has given me a new look at Custer th..."
Aloha back at you.
Bentley wrote: "Chapter Three which is part of this week's reading is called "The Protege". The chapter begins:
"For the rest of Custer's life, he would revere a man who was his opposite in every way but one. ..."
1. It seems the one trait they shared was a lack of conviction, such as for the greater cause of anti-slavery. Both Custer and McClellan fought wars for personal reasons, such as ambition or glory or love of fighting (in Custer's case). That's why McClellan was more a bureaucrat, preferring to send Custer out to the field. And that is also why McClellan never best used the great amount of men he amassed.
2. I'm guessing he ended up in the least respected cavalry because he graduated last at West Point, barely squeaking by.
3. My response to #1 covered much of this. They both coudn't care less about anti-slavery. McClellan loved admiration as a General yet was more of a bureaucrat, being OCD about taking action, planning everything out. Based on his time at West Point, Custer is the opposite, preferring to be where he is free to roam and able to be spontaneous.
4. Custer feeds off of McClellan's leadership and respect, and plays the spontaneous partner to McClellan's cautiousness.
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I also do not think in either case the they were fighting to free the slaves. McClellan always held back and was overly cautious. It was almost like he had helped create the Union army at that time (which he did) and he was good at that - but now that he had them at full strength - he did not want to lose them or use them.
Probably so Aloha in terms of class rank. Yet once he was out and in the field - he seemed to change all of that.
Your characterization is spot on - Lincoln was wringing his hands over McClellan; yet even Lee said that McClellan was an exceptional general. But not in the Civil War in terms of battles.
Maybe Custer gave McClellan not only the adoration he craved but also the courageous spirit to believe in himself and his judgement that he seemed to sometimes lack. Maybe it was as simple as the fact that McClellan had a life after the military and was called back for this internal war and maybe McClellan just did not want to die over it - at least over what they were fighting for.
I think like most people during that time, McClellan and Custer did not view slaves as equal human beings. Since they're not equal human beings, the sacrifice for the cause was too great. Custer just love to battle for battle's sake. Both McClellan and Custer were career soldiers, McClellan since he was 15. They don't know what else to do but fit into their roles. The following is a great passage from the book:"Lincoln considered it a race to uncompromising victory. He feared that McClellan’s reluctance to strike hard would prolong the slaughter indefinitely. McClellan, on the other hand, feared an unlimited war, thinking it far too costly in soldiers’ lives and damage done to Southern society."
Revising my answer to #1 above. The trait that both Custer and McClellan has that would ruin them is underestimating their opponent. McClellan viewed the Confederates as genteel southerners who should slowly and gently be weened of their slavemaster ways. That caused him to not act against his Southern brothers thereby causing his removal from his military post. Custer underestimated the Native Americans in the Battle.
In Chapters Two and Three there have been a few things that stood out to me. The first is personal. I kept thinking that Custer was going to mess something up or make a move that would help his career rather than doing what was best for his fellow soldiers. My own bias was shaping my thoughts and Custer proved I was wrong. He was a good soldier and a leader.2. The author mentioned the concept of the Good Death. p. 44. The idea to make death less tragic and that the soldier had died in vialor and with purpose. It seems to me the "Good Death" is part of every war.
Lastly, I was surprised to learn that Custer went up in a hot air balloon and developed a better strategy for their use. He took a risk and was ready to try new things. It certainly wasn't a strategy taught at West Point.
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I did not get the feeling that McClellan underestimated the opponent at all. From what I have read - McClellan underestimated his force's capabilities and overestimated the force of the Confederacy. Even when he outnumbered the Confederate forces in a battle 2 to 1. Both Lee and McClellan respected each other very much.
Lincoln wanted him to act. There was always a reason he could not. One excuse was that the horses were fatigued and Lincoln shot back - what are the horses fatigued from since they have not done anything.
Bentley, it's a combination of what we both stated. Both were pointed out in the book.
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Jim I think we are both of the same mind. You are conditioned early on to the fact that he finished last at West Point, was court martialed, was a cut up at WP and basically did not take the opportunity seriously when it came to his studies - so then you assume that behavior will carry over. And we discover that this assumption was not the case.
Thank you for bringing up both points. Death is death and you have to wonder if there is a good or bad death when the end result is the same for the person who has passed. Is the good or bad death more for the survivors and their legacy. I guess you could say that there are less painful deaths than others - and every time that a military person dies - it is always made clear that they made a difference and that their death was not in vain. But what you stated is a very true concept on how it is observed.
Love the hot air balloon - nowadays nobody would do that because somebody could shoot it down - but a novel approach then to see the troop layout and their force. But it was risky which I think was part of his nature.
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Aloha - that is fine on that point - it is good to test the waters with everyone's theories - but we can disagree with Stiles as well - nobody has right or wrong answers - but we can discuss and debate these points in a friendly way which is the fun in a discussion. I just happen to have a different point of view on McClellan in terms of his strengths and weaknesses - he had many strengths and was a great logistical person - I just happen to side with Lincoln on his inaction and why. Everybody's view is A-OK here.
More:
http://www.abrahamlincolnsclassroom.o...
https://www.civilwar.org/learn/biogra...
http://erenow.com/ww/the-long-road-to...
http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/e...
http://www.slate.com/articles/arts/bo...
http://blogs.setonhill.edu/CivilWarRe...
This article from the post goes against the conventional thoughts on McClellan - but we like to add both viewpoints https://live.washingtonpost.com/civil...
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Stiles does take that viewpoint (I agree with that statement wholeheartedly) - that McClellan in some ways was a "reluctant general" for that particular cause.
Slavery was not a cause for McClellan personally - duty was of course and recognition. It is true that McClellan was always concerned about loss of life - all generals are - at least the good ones I would imagine.
But there was something of the over planner in McClellan and maybe he was not only thinking about his troops but about himself and not wanting to die or be taken prisoner. He was always pulling back - waiting for the right time - not thinking he had enough troops when the opposite was often true.
Maybe he just did not agree with his commander in chief and that we know is true too. His own letters to his wife reveal his personal feelings and I am sure that McClellan (if alive) would not have wanted those to see the light of day. He would have much preferred having only his personally prepared, edited statements and works be for public consumption - works that he created and wrote presenting his own views in a tempered way with an eye towards improving his standing and legacy. But that is just a personal opinion.
And, by the way, I think that to be a normal human and personal tendency of those in power or in the highest positions. Winston Churchill actually said - For my part, I consider that it will be found much better by all Parties to leave the past to history, especially as I propose to write that history" (Speech in the House of Commons on January 23, 1948) - although that has been turned into the popular quote - "History will be kind to me, for I intend to write it"
I want to add that I think he was a very great general in many areas and Lee also stated that McClellan was one of the greatest that the Union had; and he meant that with the highest praise. Even though I feel that way too; it is just MHO that battle alacrity was just not one of his strong suits and his approach did not fit Lincoln's strategy for a shorter conflict.
Everyone is entitled to agree or disagree. Or have another different perspective - Also, we can agree or disagree with the author at any time - we all have our own critical reading skills and we can uncover biases and an author's belief system very quickly. Many times we both agree and disagree with the same author on a variety of subjects. We like to hear all of your views. McClellan was like a god to Custer so in some way he was influenced by this man in his career.
What did you think of General McClellan? And since Custer is our main subject - how did McClellan influence Custer?
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Aloha I understand and that is fine if we have a different opinion on one of those. That is fine (smile).
Mod
iI am Steve from Illinois.
Here a few of my thoughts on the book in general.
Before i read this book I knew a Little about Custers Civil war life and his stand at Little BIG HORN. However, I did not know that Custer was such a morally perplexing individual. I am looking forward to learning more about the conflicting parts in his life as the book goes on. Here are a few of my thoughts on some the questions from chapter one.
1.What were the motivations for a boy like Custer to go to West Point in the first place?
The following quotes from the text sums up one of Custer's main motivations for going to west point: “ I will get $28 per month for five years and be getting a good education and “when I come out I will get five years pay ahead.”(
I would guess that the money was probably a bigger motivation that than the good education. As the book points out , he had been working since the age of nine.
2. Did it astonish you that only 1 per cent of working men graduated from any kind of college in 1861? Why or why not? If you had lived during that time - what might you have ended up doing and why?
This statistic is not surprising when you consider the times that people were living in. Most young men were a lot like Custer, going to work at a very young age. College was probably not something on most peoples Radar. If I thought that going to college would provide me a chance to make money, I would have done exactly what Custer did.
3.How did Custer's fathers politics influence the young Custer
At west point Custer made it point to cultivate relationships with Southerners and put them at ease. I think that these actions were influenced by tied to his Fathers pro democratic anti-slavery views.
Bentley wrote: "Aloha wrote: "Bentley, it's a combination of what we both stated. Both were pointed out in the book."Aloha I understand and that is fine if we have a different opinion on one of those. That is fi..."
Thank you, Bentley, for taking the time to respond to everyone's posts. I'm sorry if I sounded brusque. It was not intentional. It was getting late so I didn't take the time to phrase it better. I have to come back and revisit this area later. I have to focus on another book for a local book club this weekend.
Mod
I am very much like you Steve - I never realized the depth and breadth of this person who has as Stiles indicated become a caricature of the totality of who he actually was. He had become defined by that one battle.
I agree that coming from his background he focused on money and education and calculated his future.
It is very interesting that you identified the other very influential male in Custer's life early on and his ideologies. Very good connection.
Very good input.
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I just wanted to let folks know that it is OK to disagree with an author's point or even his entire hypothesis - even though he is an exceptional author like Stiles. We are very respectful and civil when we discuss our authors. And most of the time with the Book of the Month - we have well received books to discuss.
We simply discuss the book with civility and have a give and take and everybody is going to have a different takeaway from someone else. That is perfectly normal.
It is good to discuss those things that many agree with and also the differences. I think it broadens everybody's horizons.
That is why I like our group because you can do that - pick up a book, put it down and pick up another and then do it all over again and come back to the original book.
I do that all of the time when I am not moderating a book - it depends upon your mood and how tired you might be and a host of other things. I am not sure what I would do in life without books and audios. I have found that even when I read a book of fiction - I learn something. Even a mystery! - Although I have found that I have moved away from sci fi a bit and read much more history and non fiction which are my favorites.
We are here after the weekend and it is easy to get caught up at any time.
I didn't know you like sci-fi. I'm a fan myself and thinking of going back to the genre. Thank you, Bentley.
Mod
After a long day, I'm too tired to respond to one of the questions this go around but I would like to ask if you're a kindle reader or a real book reader or both? I presently read from both. The kindle is so much more convenient to use, for the most part, but I do miss holding the book, looking at the cover, and thumbing through the pages when needed to look up something.
Okay, sorry for the aside.
I like to kill trees :) - book, if at all possible
Both, book and Kindle.
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PS: Two Kindles, one Fire, two iPads, one Bose bluetooth for listening while running, one Bose portable speaker - the little one - a real dynamo, love Audible, but my favorite is the hardcover - but when you travel with the weight allowance - I forego the hardcover and bring the technology. When I moderate - I always use hardcover.
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Our discussion until Monday is only from the Preface through the end of Chapter Four - page 107 without having to use the spoiler html. If you want to become more expansive - remember you must use the spoiler html or post on the glossary thread.
This is the link to the glossary thread:
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
At any time on this thread you can always talk about any page that has already been assigned up through the last page of the current assignment without having to use spoiler html. Otherwise you know the rules for spoilers.
Mod
This is the Week Two Reading Schedule - May 15th through May 21st
This week's reading includes Part One - RISE and Chapters 5, 6, 7, and 8 - this week's reading concluded Part One. Pages assigned are from 107 through 210
Part One - RISE 1839 - 1865
5. The Women 107
6. The General 134
7. The Hero 157
8. The Victor 182
Mod
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When I archive this discussion in one of our folders - where should I archive this book so that folks can find the threads and still read the book and post at a future time. We always leave the threads open.
Should I archive this under the American Civil War, under Native American folder because of the last battle for which Custer is known, under American History because Custer is part of the folklore or under Military.
American History is the most general category and will cover the other categories so it's best in there.
Mod
I agree. You could make a case for each of the three folders. I do lean, like Aloha, towards American History. Much of what we have been reading is oriented towards the CW but, as you know, a lot of the Custer story takes place on the frontier and with the Native Americans.
Regardless, the fact that it's archived at all is a very good thing. Thanks for doing that, Bentley.
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You are welcome Tim. Yes - that is why at first I was thinking of archiving it in the Native American folder because there is a thread on the frontier there. But then we started reading the book - and so far we are heavy duty into the Civil War and all of those battles - I suspect that by the end of Part One we will be out of the Civil War - but so far it has almost been 100% focused on those battles.
I guess we can see what Part Two brings but Custer is not a Native American so American History looks like the fallback. And if we place it in the Native American folder solely - we are probably doing what every other author did - focus solely on the last battle. So right now I think we are leaning towards American History.
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5. The Women
In Chapter Five - Stiles introduces us to Custer’s sister Lydia Ann Reed who Custer is placing in the awkward position of being a go between. But to make matters worse - there were two other women involved - not just Libbie. Additionally, we are introduced to Eliza Brown - a slave who became Custer’s cook. Custer attempts to foster a relationship with Judge Bacon - Libbie’s father.
6. The General
The theater occupied Custer; he loses some hard earned money. He is once again off to battle; as a brigadier general. However, he appears to be taking a page from McClellan's book; by writing letters to benefactors like Christiancy risking insubordination, Custer continued to foster his relationship with Judge Bacon and finally has enough nerve to ask for Libbie's hand in marriage. Marriage scares Libbie. At the same time, Custer had to defend his brigadier generalship; while denouncing McClellan’s politics. He saw no way out politically. Custer marries Libbie. Eliza assumed charge for the housekeeping detail. An accident happens and Custer suffers traumatic brain injury.
7. The Hero
Libby meets General Ulysses S. Grant and is initially unimpressed. General Meade is impressed because Grant wins battles. Custer is saved once again by General Sheridan. Custer is on the move in this chapter while General Grant is in charge. Unlike every previous Union commander surprised by Lee, Grant did not retreat. Custer’s attack kills Jeb Stuart which was a blow to the Confederate general. Yellow Tavern begins Custer’s rise as Sheridan’s favorite subordinate, a man he could count on. Custer appears to be a neat freak - he is never without his toothbrush and brushes after every meal and washes his hands frequently. Another heroic feat at Trevilian Station for our protagonist. Custer falls ill with remittent fever and diarrhea and comes home.
8. The Victor
Libbie worried that there was no sign of pregnancy. Politics affect the military and folks want to know how Custer will vote. His father is hurt because Custer purposely acted as if he had turned against McClellan; just to gain favor with the Republican friends of Judge Christiancy. Cedar Creek capped a string of victories which solidified Lincoln’s victory. Custer’s father was bitterly disappointed. Jefferson Davis refused to accept defeat. Defeat and surrender finally occur. Sheridan sends Libbie the writing table used by Grant to draft the surrender terms. Custer is promoted to the full service rank of Major General of U.S. Volunteers and a promotion to Brevet Major General of the regular army. The war ended and Custer was only 25.
Mod
This is the Week Two Reading Schedule - May 15th through May 21st
This week's reading includes Part One - RISE and Chapters 5, 6, 7, and 8 - this week's reading concluded Part One. Pages assigned are from 107 through 210
Part One - RISE 1839 - 1865
5. The Women 107
6. The General 134
7. The Hero 157
8. The Victor 182
Mod
Thank you for posting the information, Bentley. Apropos to this week's initial chapter, happy Mother's Day! You would think women barely exist with the amount of material covered about them in history books.
Mod
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https://millercenter.org/the-presiden...
Source: The Miller Center
Hilarious! Even the President get wedgies, has a bung hole and burps. Thank you for posting that, Bentley.
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The History Book Club
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Stiles has taken a unique approach and I think it gives us a fuller picture of the man versus a caricature of a person who fought and died in one event.
The book is excellent so far. Please look at the discussion questions and try your hand at giving us your perspective - it stimulates conversation and ensures a great discussion of the book itself.
For this week's assignment we only have to read the Preface and Chapters One through Four - up through 107 so you are doing just fine.
PS: Thank you for your fine job on the citations.