Censorship and right to write

[Nik]

Censorship to a degree exists everywhere. In the minimal case, one is not allowed to publish something involving his/her military past or work at security facilities. In broader instances - ideology, dissenting opinions are being screened and banned from publication.
Some others deal with problematic issues by tagging and limitations on sales: like categorizing porn and extreme violence to being designated above certain age..

But do we need books like Mein Kampf or anything propagating intolerance, racial superiority, circulating and influencing minds? Or restriction/censorship would still be worse, since it might undermine plurality and freedom of thought?
If El Baghdadi, for example, were to publish a book, would we want it widespread?

Here is Wiki's list of banned books (don't know whether it's accurate):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...

[Roughseasinthemed]

That's an interesting list Nik. Don't know what it says about me that I've read quite a few of them. They're basically sex, politics, and religion.

Of the ones I've read, I don't think any should be banned, certainly not in the 21st century. But I suppose it depends on the reader as to how easily influenced they are. We can't legislate for everything or we become more nanny state than we already are. Like telling people to take the plastic off things before they put it in the microwave. Or how to cook carrots on the carrot bag.

[Nik]

Roughseasinthemed wrote: "That's an interesting list Nik. Don't know what it says about me that I've read quite a few of them. ."

Yeah, the list is odd. It's a little strange to see, for example: Alice, Da Vinci Code, Catch -22 and many others on it...
If you haven't developed anything extreme as a result, then you withstood the peril bravely! -:)

[Roughseasinthemed]

Those are three of the ones I've read. Along with Lolita, Orwell, Huxley, Lawrence, Solzhenitsyn, Rushdie … A recommended reading list really :)

[Holly]

Hah..... Borstal Boy is one of my favorite works. I am never in favor of censorship.... I just won't read anything I find offensive. This list is so tame compared to the horrific books that didn't make the list...... I guess the torture porn genre is still below the book banner radar.

[J.J.]

Found it funny the Canterbury Tales are banned from being sent through the US mail...

[Nik]

Holly wrote: "This list is so tame compared to the horrific books that didn't make the list...... I guess the torture porn genre is still below the book banner radar. ..."

Should it be banned, in your opinion, or just marked appropriately?

[Ian]

For me, the big problem is the internet - you can't censor that easily (or at least they haven't so far), so banning merely provides advertising. However, I think censoring movies, and putting on an age recommendation/restriction is good. I also don't see the need to permit books on "Instructions to build your nuke, dirty bomb, anthrax distributor, etc".

As an aside, the Canterbury tales, in their original form, would be a very difficult read for most.

[J.N.]

Wow, that's a surprising list. Alice in Wonderland... banned? Wow.

[Nik]

Ian wrote: "I also don't see the need to permit books on "Instructions to build your nuke, dirty bomb, anthrax distributor, etc"..."

Too bad we have internet for that now...

[P.K.]

It's an insoluble problem, Nik. Censorship will always exist in societies where there is a need for it to exist - according to whoever runs the place. In an ideal world of egalitarian intellect there probably wouldn't be any need for it. I like to say (and have somewhere on GR) that I will talk about anything. But it's tricky when the listener doesn't hold the same view. Many is the time my opinion has dropped like a stink in an elevator.
And now, as others have said, we have the internet where the problem is not so easily solved. On my website I have a blog
Power To The People, where I talk about it and praise the internet for taking such power away from a select group of rulers. But, power corrupts and there are now millions of cranks out there with that power to corrupt. When technology exists to build a wall against the airwaves, it will be used. As individuals all we can do is to use this power we now have responsibly - as we do here - and to argue against those who don't.
Friday; time to open the bar. Have a great weekend everyone.

[Holly]

Nik wrote: "Holly wrote: "This list is so tame compared to the horrific books that didn't make the list...... I guess the torture porn genre is still below the book banner radar. ..."

Should it be banned, in ..."

Of course it shouldn't be banned. I have read 5 star reviews for some of this stuff; I am appalled that anyone would want to read it, but I'm not going to lift a finger to stop anyone else from doing so. Besides, the readers who enjoy this material talk about how wonderful it is and how it almost made them vomit. It's not my place to deny these individuals from their enjoyment......and besides they may someday discover the wonders of ipecac syrup and achieve their goal that way, leaving them a great deal of spare time to discover better books.

[Nik]

P.K. wrote: "we have the internet where the problem is not so easily solved..."

You'd be surprised how effectively some countries tackle this cyber nuisance. Here is Wiki's China list of blocked sites:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Website...
Even if it's not 100% accurate, we can get the idea..

P.K. wrote: "time to open the bar...."

Indeed! Still feeling remnants of Glenmoranjie in my system from yesterday, so I'll go with red wine tonight.
Cheers, Na zdorovye, L'chaim!

[P.K.]

Yes, Nik. I know there is now a war on cyber-space and I fear censorshipe is going to become more prevalent in more countries. But there is always radio. In WW11 the battle of the airwaves was constant. Radio America and the BBC Overseas Service did so much, even post-war (see my blog about Russia) to liberate Soviet Bloc countries. That's why we all need to nurture the freedom the internet gives us and not abuse it - and each other.
Na zdorovye, matey. Please though, remember; grain and grape don't mix

[Nik]

P.K. wrote: "Radio America and the BBC Overseas... "

Yeah, KGB invested quite an effort in jamming those...

P.K. wrote: "Please though, remember; grain and grape don't mix... "

Good advice! I personally keep to one type of drink along the evening, be it vodka, whiskey, wine, beer, whatever for quite some years.. The pleasant effect is the same, but the following mornings are better -:) For this reason I also prefer 'single malt' to 'blended'

[P.K.]

You have good reason, Nik. I remember getting horribly maudlin in my near-youth from a load of beer and then wine; was nearly disastrous but only cost me a girl-friend. But there were plenty around in those days - or is that sexist?

[Nik]

P.K. wrote: "is that sexist? "

I don't know, but we are blessed to have members more proficient in these issues, so maybe we'll hear some remark. Maybe just a little disrespectful?

[P.K.]

Very interesting ideas, Tim. I will come back to them when I've chewed on them a bit. Of course, you do get to the difficult point of a censorship debate by siting a good reason when it might be necessary - but that's what I want to think about. Who decides and why it is necessary?

[P.K.]

Now having thought about what Tim said; I think paedophilia is a good example for those who want to impose censorship. On my website I recently reviewed a book called Short Sentence (three years in Darmoor Prison) by Jessica Berens. She was writer in residence there. Of all the inmates, including violent murderers, the ones she seemed never to trust were the sex-offenders (Nonces in UK prison lingo), There were those who were unrepentant for what they had done and, indeed, seemed incapable of exercising any restraint of their appetite where paedophilia was concerned. Paedodphilia, at least, in the UK, seems to be the big explosion. It is probably only because it is now talked about that it seems to have increased. But it is now a real social menace. We older people say that we were so lucky to be able to have been left alone when we were children to play outside. When I was young we often disappeared for a whole day into the fields and woods. But no responsible parent would allow that to happen to their child today. So paedophilia is probably as good a case as any to be banned from any form of advertising or preference, in print or in speech.
But if it is banned that way, what good would it do? Is it not like preaching to drug-abusers? Can any amount of censorship stop them? If the answer is No then we can only attack it where we find it. But if paedophiles can be reached then is it not better to allow them to spiel their case so we can see from where they are coming and why and combat it with the power of words?
I rest my case

[Nik]

It so happens that (mass) murderers, rapists, mafia bosses, con artists and the likes are often superstars in books, series and movies.
Doesn't Godfather demonstrate how cool and noble to be a mafia boss and Puzo makes us feel killing a few people was justified? At least Michael strives to distance himself from the family biz and it's not exactly glorifying murder, extortion and so on.
The message is sometimes more important than the substance. In Crime and Punishment we have another murderer, but he too gets what he deserves.
In this sense pedophile is just another offender. And immediately Lolita springs into mind.
I hear Fight Club became kinda less glorious after 9/11 and many draw parallels between the book/movie and the heinous act terror.
Not sure books or movies with messages encouraging and propagating pedophilia, rape or murder should benefit from exposure. Obscenity and public order rules may come handy in most extreme cases...

[Nik]

Can censorship be justified? What do you think?

[Holly]

P.K. wrote: "Now having thought about what Tim said; I think paedophilia is a good example for those who want to impose censorship. On my website I recently reviewed a book called Short Sentence (three years in..."

In that case, would books like Loretta Lynn: Coal Miner's Daughter be banned?

[Matthew]

J.J. wrote: "Found it funny the Canterbury Tales are banned from being sent through the US mail..."

Are you serious? For what possible reason?

[Graeme]

I think every society will set norms for expected and appropriate behaviors.

The question is - do they make any sense? Anyone should be allowed to challenge the 'boundaries,' but all should bear in mind that if you want to change anything, its best to win people's hearts and minds first - lest they turn on you and burn you at the stake (along with your scribblings..)

[Graeme]

Nik wrote: "It so happens that (mass) murderers, rapists, mafia bosses, con artists and the likes are often superstars in books, series and movies.
Doesn't Godfather demonstrate how cool and noble to be a mafi..."

The Godfather was a classic example of pitting a protagonist against even worse and vile people, so that his own ruthless actions were 'OK,' in comparison.

You can get great drama out of a criminal figure provided they have a 'code of honor,' and 'integrity,' versus the lying, cheating, effing scum, that they are dealing with on a regular basis.

As long as there is contrast, you can get a dramatic moment.

[P.K.]

Holly wrote: "P.K. wrote: "Now having thought about what Tim said; I think paedophilia is a good example for those who want to impose censorship. On my website I recently reviewed a book called Short Sentence (t..."

[P.K.]

Haven't read the book, Holly and your link does not provide a reason for your question. Perhaps you can give us more info as to why someone might want to ban it?
Graeme, you are getting into your new thread about writing; you have explained a first principle of story-telling.; conflict and resolution; point and counterpoint. The Greeks did it and the principle hasn't changed since. Drama is drama whatever the subject or however unpleasant the subject. The thought of censorship should only be made if the detail becomes the object. A good example is photo news of the Syrian war; all news outlets will tell you that most of it is not used because of its graphic content.

[Ian]

My personal view is that instructions for really bad antisocial behaviour should be censored, but i admit that creates a lot of difficulties in implementation.

[Scout]

Is there a government agency that bans books these days? I'm basically against censorship. Who decides what's so wrong that it should be banned, and doesn't this give that agency too much power? What criteria are used? I think of Fahrenheit 451 and Nazis burning books, and I'd rather not have censorship of any kind. It's a slippery slope.

[J.J.]

Ian wrote: "As an aside, the Canterbury tales, in their original form, would be a very difficult read for most.


..."

I tried it back in college. It's actually not as hard as you'd think, but it does take a lot of concentration. Only gave up on it because I didn't have the time for it...

[[deleted user]]

Scout wrote: "Is there a government agency that bans books these days? I'm basically against censorship. Who decides what's so wrong that it should be banned, and doesn't this give that agency too much power? Wh..."

I am not sure if any American federal agency has the legal power to censor a book in the USA, but I did read in the past a number of articles and statements saying that some authorities in a state or county (number of different ones) had blacklisted specific books. If I remember well, it was mostly about banning certain books from being available in public libraries or prohibiting public schools from using certain books for teaching. I suppose that state, county and city officials have more legal leway about banning selected books.

[Scout]

I know it's a black or white question, and your answer may be in the grey area, but do you think censorship is okay?

[P.K.]

In various countries books could violate certain laws. Incitement to Racial Hatred for instance which has been used rently in the Uk apropos of material posted on social media.

[Nik]

Scout wrote: "Is there a government agency that bans books these days?..."

Didn't read it, but that's what I found: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_ce...
A member here, wrote me that she needed a book cleared with DoD before publishing. Not a censorship, per se though

[J.J.]

Nik wrote: "Scout wrote: "Is there a government agency that bans books these days?..."

Didn't read it, but that's what I found: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_ce...
A member here..."

I've been working on graphic novels under a pen name. I wanted to shift them to Smashwords after 6 months in Select, but Smashwords is prudish when it comes to sex. First piece I tried to transfer, I censored out the naughty bits, and they still took issue. The level of censorship they suggested would have destroyed the work too much, so I took it back to Select. I've really only got one project that is...uh...hard R rated, but if they don't want that one, then I won't be taking the rest out of Select when their 6 month anniversary arrives.

This is what they had to say: "Per the Smashwords TOS, we don't allow floppy bits, nipples, nudity, butt cracks or graphic sexual content on cover images or inside material. "

I had a laugh over the "butt cracks" thing...even if there is nothing sexual, you have to be careful before putting in a picture of a stereotypical plumber :D

[Nik]

Sounds like you've got some cool stuff, J.J -:)

[P.K.]

J.J. wrote: "Nik wrote: "Scout wrote: "Is there a government agency that bans books these days?..."

Didn't read it, but that's what I found: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_ce...
A..."

[P.K.]

So what's wrong with anus? Can't they bring themselves to use a proper description? God, Nick, you worry me. My next book is full of anuses. I think I mentioned elewhere that when I read some of it to a writing-group two of them almost had heatattacks that I mentioned a seventeen-year-old masturbated. And another one said I couldn't say 'pubis'. That's censorship of the inner hang-ups

[Nik]

P.K. wrote: "God, Nick, you worry me...."

I share the same worry. Surely every human still defecates and uses something underneath the rest of the body for sitting

[[deleted user]]

From what many British readers/friends told me, it seems that the British are on average a lot less prudish than Americans. In Québec, our local TV channels don't hesitate a bit to show nudity or sex (must be the French blood in our veins).