Our Shared Shelf discussion
Intersectional Feminism
>
Bechdel test revisited.
date
newest »
newest »
Beauty and the Beast Belle teaches the girl to read. in both spirit and fact of the test it passes.
Ross' point about films having to pass the spirit of the test as well is a very good point. There are plenty of films that technically pass the Bechdel test - i.e. two named female characters speak about something other than a man - that might not be considered 'feminist' or 'female-empowering' films. American Pie 2 famously 'passes' the Bechdel test because of a scene where two female characters talk to each other about clothes, for example, despite it not exactly being a great depiction of women.On the other hand, Gravity, which has a great female lead in Sandra Bullock, fails the test because she doesn't speak to another female character at all during the film.
All three Lord of the Rings films and four of the first six Star Wars films (not sure about Rogue One or Episode VII off the top of my head) fail the test, mostly because they hardly have any female characters in.
I recently had an article pop up in my email from an ezine concerned with writing films, which is a slightly different take than that of the passive observer (non-industry folks). This particular article is about writing stronger female characters, and I think the section on the Bechdel test might be interesting to this discussion:http://www.scriptmag.com/features/cra...
Keith wrote: "Aimee wrote: "Ross' point about films having to pass the spirit of the test as well is a very good point. There are plenty of films that technically pass the Bechdel test - i.e. two named female ch..."Alison Bechdel has said in interviews (can't remember where I read this or I would put up a link, sorry) that it was deliberately meant as a low bar but one that a lot of films still wouldn't pass. It's infuriating that so many films still don't have enough (named) female characters to pass such a basic test.
Mod
Grousing here, but the test would not be the Bechdel Test if it was just asking 'Does it have an empowered Female lead? or 'Does the female lead display strength of character?' The test was originally created to make sure that women are being represented and represented as something other than the love interest.
Yes. Lord of the Rings - Fails. Star Wars- Fails. Do they have empowered women? Sure. But they are still love interests. The Test asks us... if these women were not the love interest would producers / script writers / directors still have them in there? Would Leia still be leading the rebellion? Or would she be thrown in a small roll like Mon Mothma?
Gravity has a female lead. Which is amazing! But the Test says it fails because that's not good enough. We need more women represented. Why wasn't there a woman behind the controls back on Earth or even a mission control who wished her luck before her voyage? Don't settle here people. We can have more than 1 kick ass female in a movie. We can have female support characters that are not interested in men but are doing their jobs.
Mod
Skyfall was empowering! Off the top of my head:
- Female Director of a Spy Agency
- Female Spy who after some reflection decides that her path is her path and she is going to do the best that she can at it
- Female Spy as a person of color who is not killed by end of film
- Fun sexy time with mutual interest x3 (I think, can't remember)
- Older Woman as seen as a viable character with multiple layers
- Most of the females had lines and names!
The fact that these things occurred in a Bond movie - the quintessential guy's guy film, is HUGE. Not every female needs to be strong kick ass. But we do want to see more female characters on screen that interacts with the world around them in such a way that tells a unique- interconnected story.
Pam wrote: "Aimee wrote: "Ross' point about films having to pass the spirit of the test as well is a very good point. There are plenty of films that technically pass the Bechdel test - i.e. two named female ch..."Just to be clear, I wasn't saying that Gravity having one good female character was enough - I was trying to show that passing the Bechdel test and being female-empowering film aren't the same thing. FWIW I agree with you that they could (and should) have included another female character on the ship, or as you suggest in Mission Control.
Adam wrote: "What movies (If any: Or if Hollywood is even capable of producing any) definitely; without any doubt, would pass the test?"All of the Resident Evil movies?
Fried Green Tomatoes
Boys on the Side
Desert of the Heart
Sisterhod of the traveling pants (both parts)
Die wilden Hühner
20 30 40 (I believe, would have to watch it again to be sure)
The truth about dogs and cats
Thelma and Louise
The Jane Austen Book Club
...
The Bechdel test is a start but not enough... and as previously said, covers only some aspects of female representation in movies.Rowan Ellis made a good video about that, comparing it to the "Mako Mori test" (Mako Mori is the main female character in Pacific Rim): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WiRFu...
Gerd wrote: "Adam wrote: "What movies (If any: Or if Hollywood is even capable of producing any) definitely; without any doubt, would pass the test?"All of the Resident Evil movies?
Fried Green Tomatoes
Boys ..."
Well, Die Wilden Hühner consists of girls, doesn't it? It was one of the things why I didn't like the movie series, but I agree with all of you.
I think that a movie that does not pass the Bechdel test can still be empowering for women, and that with a movie that passes the Bechdel test it is not guaranteed that it empowers women.
MeerderWörter wrote: "Well, Die Wilden Hühner consists of girls, doesn't it? It was one of the things why I didn't like the movie series, ..."Yes it does (all parts of it), love it.
Gerd wrote: "MeerderWörter wrote: "Well, Die Wilden Hühner consists of girls, doesn't it? It was one of the things why I didn't like the movie series, ..."Yes it does (all parts of it), love it."
I didn't like it because there were just girls in it, and I hated everything girly(uh, I was such a tomboy:) ) I still hate the colour pink, I was more of a Wilde Kerle fan.
Emma wrote: "I love the Bechdel test! I agree with MeerderWorter, "I think that a movie that does not pass the Bechdel test can still be empowering for women, and that with a movie that passes the Bechdel tes..."
I agree, but then, I'll push for our gender-non-conforming and trans* and genderqueer siblings too.
For clarification: Harry Potter fails the Bechdel test, but I still think the movies are very empowering for all genders, not just boys and men.
Keith wrote: "MeerderWörter wrote: "For clarification: Harry Potter fails the Bechdel test, but I still think the movies are very empowering..."This is an interesting notion, because it can come down to one's ..."
I misunderstood the definition of the Bechdel test, my fault. I thought it is required to be a scene without boys/men in it.
I love your last sentence:
"As individuals they were formidable; as a trio they were unstoppable. "
Because that's so true.
Keith wrote: "MeerderWörter wrote: "Keith wrote: "MeerderWörter wrote: "For clarification: Harry Potter fails the Bechdel test, but I still think the movies are very empowering..."This is an interesting notion..."
I have also always seen them more as a trio than as a two + one, or one + two.
It's from Allison Bechdel's "Dykes to Watch Out For". Wikipedia covers it pretty well, but basically in a strip titled "The Rule", two women, discuss seeing a film and one explains that she only goes to a movie if it satisfies the following requirements:1.The movie has to have at least two women in it,
2.who talk to each other,
3.about something besides a man.
It sets a low bar for filmmakers.
Ross wrote: "Beauty and the Beast Belle teaches the girl to read. in both spirit and fact of the test it passes."BATB: Two women get a couple of minutes of "alone" screen time, while the "Beast" (Male leads get more talk/sing/stage time) upstages women throughout the film.
Another direction/compromise on the test: What if BATB was set to a contemporary setting?
One where "Beauty and Beast" were a vague and malleable concept; each character having both; where each try to find a balance of that "Beauty and Beast".
Beauty: Lost in a "Beast" world; one where she is forced to comply with the restraints that male dominated society places upon her. Never allowed to reveal the "Beast" that resides within in her.
Beast: Also restrained in the male dominated world, and forced to contain the "Beauty" that resides within himself.
Granted Disney would never do such a film....but
Adam wrote: "Ross wrote: "Beauty and the Beast Belle teaches the girl to read. in both spirit and fact of the test it passes."BATB: Two women get a couple of minutes of "alone" screen time, while the "Beast" ..."
"but" a very interesting idea and concept!
Keith wrote: "MeerderWörter wrote: "For clarification: Harry Potter fails the Bechdel test, but I still think the movies are very empowering..."This is an interesting notion, because it can come down to one's ..."
I look at the Bechdel test as the absolute rock bottom minimum; that Bechdel was, imho, trying to imply that it must go further.
Minimum to myself: Two women alone; having a conversation about anything that does not involve men, for two hours at the least.
MeerderWörter wrote: "Adam wrote: "Ross wrote: "Beauty and the Beast Belle teaches the girl to read. in both spirit and fact of the test it passes."BATB: Two women get a couple of minutes of "alone" screen time, while..."
Hollyweed would never produce it.
Adam wrote: "Minimum to myself: Two women alone; having a conversation about anything that does not involve men, for two hours at the least ..."Sounds like an "Auteur Movie".
You know, one of those who are so self aware you can't even get past the first five minutes of it because of the dirctor virtually screaming at you like an over eager toddler "Look what I did there, look, look, looooook!" ... :D
I'd also like to add an idea of Intersectionality here. Very little WoC represented in Hollywood, particularly outside their own circles.A Bechdel test where two WoC interact?
What about MoC being better represented in Hollywood as well?
If the intent of the Bechel test is to give a minimum spotlight to women to promote gender diversity, shouldn't this be extended to the intersectional cross sections of our country? Men and Women of all races and creeds, with their screen time to be the role model for some little kid.
Winston wrote: "I'd also like to add an idea of Intersectionality here. Very little WoC represented in Hollywood, particularly outside their own circles.A Bechdel test where two WoC interact?
What about MoC bei..."
It's the next logical step, I think. It only needs to be promoted. Especially in the US, which is such a mixed country, that should be mandatory.
Winston, maybe there'll be a Winston test one day:)
I think when we look at whether or not a film (or anything) passes/fails the Bechdel test, we have to look at WHY it passed or failed. For example, Harry Potter has a lot of strong female characters, characters that are incredibly empowering. They aren't there to be ogled or to be the love interest, they are friends, family, and individuals in their own right. That said, Harry Potter fails the test. Not because it isn't inclusive towards women, but because the books/movies focus on Harry's perspective. How often is Harry going to be a part of a conversation between two women?
An example from a different perspective would be The Walking Dead, Vol 1. There are a number of named female characters in this graphic novel. Does it pass? No. Why, you might be wondering? Because the only time these women are shown talking to one another is while doing laundry and discussing their husbands.
And yet a different type of example would be The Lord of the Rings, which fails the test due to hardly having any women present at all. While I enjoy Tolkien, he did a good job of solidifying fantasy as a boys' club.
Yet another perspective, and a film/book that passes the Bechdel test, is Fifty Shades of Grey. It passes simply because it is female focused, but it doesn't exactly represent feminism, as presents a toxic relationship and distorted consent even though it's meant to be a romance.
Basically, there are different ways to pass or fail the Bechdel test. Passing isn't inherently feminist. Failing isn't inherently not feminist. As a whole, statistics show a really gross trend of too many movies failing the test, simply because there are not enough important female roles in cinema. When looking at an individual film, however, you really have to examine why it has failed or not failed. There are different ways to tell if something is feminist, and the Bechdel test is best used for statistics.
I completely agree with Elizabeth: "Passing isn't inherently feminist. Failing isn't inherently not feminist".I think the test is a tool and it can give us some perspective on female roles in movies and books but I don't think we should accuse those stories of being "anti-feminist" because they didn't pass the test.
What the Bechdel test has given to me (and I think that's the aim of it) is some perspective on the female roles in media. It has made me think of how many female characters, in many books/movies are limited to being "the girlfriend", "the mother" or "the wife", which mostly turns them into one-dimensional, very uninteresting characters and even are reduced to a character trait for the protagonist, or a motivation. I think that's when it gets problematic.
But I really have no problem of having one or none female characters in a movie, to me that dones't make the movie better or worse. One example of this, at least to me, is the very controversial Fight Club, I think Marla is quite a memorable character from that movie... but she's the only female character in it, people question the characters actions towads her (which I get) and Fight Club doesn't pass the the Bechdel test... still...I think she is interesting.
Victoria wrote: "I completely agree with Elizabeth: "Passing isn't inherently feminist. Failing isn't inherently not feminist".I think the test is a tool and it can give us some perspective on female roles in movi..."
I am totally on the side of my two previous speakers, just because the movie passes or does not pass the Bechdel test does not tell us if it is feminist or antifeminist. (I've never seen Fight Club, so I can't speak for that, but if there is only one woman in there, it fails the test right from the start)
I think the Bechdel test is a convenient way to see how/if women are represented in the film it is being applied to. It is convenient, but it's certainly not the last word in women's representation in film. I agree with Aimee, who said Alison Bechdel was probably trying to make a point by intentionally setting the bar pretty low, and Elizabeth, who pointed out that failing the test does not automatically mean the movie is anti-feminist.When I had to give a presentation on the depiction of female characters in one of my literature class texts, I asked some people for help on determining how feminist a female character is. The criteria included the amount of agency the character showed (did she take her choices into her own hands? did she make a significant decision without relying on others? actively choose a path to take at a metaphorical crossroads?), and how she reacted to choices made for her by others (did she resist? accept it unquestioningly? consider the matter objectively and then decide?). I think this is frankly a somewhat more inclusive test to judge the representation of female characters (when I say representation here, I mean the characterization of the woman, which is supposedly covered by the third stipulation of the Bechdel test), and can be applied to a range of fiction across media. In addition, how we see the women in a movie largely depends on the protagonist and their situation. If the protagonist is a somewhat self-absorbed male (like several protagonists of literature texts I've read), then we see pretty much all the characters in relation to him, so yes, the women will probably be talking about a guy.
One more observation on the Bechdel test: it is meant to give people an idea about the representation of women in a film, not how feminist it is. That would take a different and most likely longer set of criteria.
Kaivallya wrote: "I think the Bechdel test is a convenient way to see how/if women are represented in the film it is being applied to. It is convenient, but it's certainly not the last word in women's representation..."I actually really like your questions on female characters in literature. Because it gives not only the observers more to talk about, the characters personality is more brought to light.
But then, that doesn't make the Bechdel test wrong or incomplete, as you said, it is a minimum requirement for a movie, as you implied.
The Bechdel test is good as it is. Although I wish there were other tests to use on films, regarding ethnicity, religion, gender and sex.
MeerderWörter wrote: "Kaivallya wrote: "I think the Bechdel test is a convenient way to see how/if women are represented in the film it is being applied to. It is convenient, but it's certainly not the last word in wome..."Actually there's a test called Shukla test (sorry if I mispelled it) but it's to analyze the inclusion of minorities in the media. I don't have much infomation on it bur I'm pretty sure it follows the same rules as the Bechdel test but for racial minorities. I think that's really important too because many times I feel like characters of colour are included in film for a racial quota and it happens the same as with women, they are uninteresting, steriotypical characters to the point on which they are offensive.
Once again, I still think this kind of tests are oversimplified and don't paint the real problems of the situations well, but they can give perspective.
Victoria wrote: "MeerderWörter wrote: "Kaivallya wrote: "I think the Bechdel test is a convenient way to see how/if women are represented in the film it is being applied to. It is convenient, but it's certainly not..."I didn't know that test existed, yay!
And I agree with you, it's of no use to have a few people of colour in a movie when they just say a few lines (of course that depends also on the topic of the movie), and are left out otherwise:(
I wonder if Wonder Woman passes the Shukla test, it's a good chance it does!
Victoria wrote: "MeerderWörter wrote: "Kaivallya wrote: "I think the Bechdel test is a convenient way to see how/if women are represented in the film it is being applied to. It is convenient, but it's certainly not..."I just looked up the Shukla test. It has virtually the same criteria as the Bechdel test, except it's people of colour talking to each other about something other than their race. I'm going to start applying this too!
@MeerderWorter: I think Wonder Woman passes both tests: definitely the Bechdel test, because there's a fair bit of discussion on Themiscyra about fighting and such (as well as Diana's conversation with Etta that was in the trailer about "using principles" to fight), and probably the Shukla test as well, because there are one or two conversations between some combination of Diana, Chief, and Sameer that you could choose from. There are a couple of conversations where Chief and Sameer openly talk about their races but to me it didn't come across as too heavy-handed.
Kaivallya wrote: "Victoria wrote: "MeerderWörter wrote: "Kaivallya wrote: "I think the Bechdel test is a convenient way to see how/if women are represented in the film it is being applied to. It is convenient, but i..."Uh, makes me only more anticipate that movie. Can't wait for the 15th, when it comes out here in Austria:)
If anyone wonders why we need fourth wave of feminism the number of movies failing or passing these tests with on scene should be enough to convince them.How about "the Circle" have not been able to see it yet, being in the UK, But that is another thread. From the trailers and reviews it looks like it should pass easily.
Ross wrote: "If anyone wonders why we need fourth wave of feminism the number of movies failing or passing these tests with on scene should be enough to convince them.How about "the Circle" have not been able..."
Yeah, that one has a good chance. Why do I have to live in Austria where it comes out on 15th of SEPTEMBER?! I can't imagine many will watch it, anyone who wants will have seen it otherwise.
Speaking of the Circle...does anyone remember if Beauty and the Beast passes the Bechdel test?
Kaivallya wrote: "Speaking of the Circle...does anyone remember if Beauty and the Beast passes the Bechdel test?"Not as far as I can remember. But then, I've seen it on February 16th, so it's been a while.
"Passing the test"Are we not back to the argument that it is a bare minimum requirement; that scripts/stories/films/plays/novels should go way further?
If we just stay at the bare minimum, we don't progress.
*Goes back to Twitter to annoy the world*
in would say BATB passed and well passed. Also I read recently that a number of the new TV shows like Orphan black and Orange is the new black were leading the way for many TV shows to past the test.progress on the big and small screen good to see.
Ross wrote: "progress on the big and small screen good to see. "That is definitely something good.
And yes, it is a minimum, I totally agree here with Adam, therefore I think every movie should pass this test.
I agree. We do need media that goes beyond the test- that isn't limited by the test parameters. I'm sure there are movies or stories that are feminist that don't pass.In terms of TV shows, I haven't seen OITNB, but I did watch two period crime shows that are quite progressive: The Bletchley Circle and Miss Fisher's Murder Mysteries. The second one is pretty self-aware of the issues it's portraying.
Kaivallya wrote: "I agree. We do need media that goes beyond the test- that isn't limited by the test parameters. I'm sure there are movies or stories that are feminist that don't pass.In terms of TV shows, I haven..."
Some Harry Potter movies, as mentioned earlier, don't pass the test and yet I'd say each one of the movies is feminist to some degrees.
It would be nice to see a "My Dinner with Andrea"