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Martin Chuzzlewit
Martin Chuzzlewit
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Chuzzlewit, Chapters 13 - 15
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Awh, Tristram, I actually liked this section. I relished the return and servility of dear old Mark. Don't you wish that you were as simplistic as I?! No answer required!Ok I'm soppy, but I loved the meeting of Martin and Mary in St James's Park with Mr Tapley discreetly admiring the fog in the sky while the lovers enjoy a degree of privacy. The only cloud on the horizon for me (haha) is that I don't trust Martin at all. He promises her the world; well not in so many words. She is just far too good for him. (Oh dear, I hope that the grumpiness in this group is not rubbing off on me; normally such a sunshiny person.). Really though, Martin's character mystifies me. He has such a superior view of himself, but then can appear to be thoughtful. I fear for Mary. Having said that, I found myself, in Chapter 13 rooting for Martin in the pawn shop and felt dismayed at his discovery by Tigg.
In Chapter 15, just reading about the boat journey to America made me feel seasick. Mark certainly shows his full worth here: happiness in the face of adversity. He is quite the hero, helping women and children, trying to help his now master, Martin and having to rush off privately to throw up. Maybe his choice to be happy against all odds isn't so silly after all. I'd take a dozen 'Mark Tapley's for one young Martin Chuzzlewit any day.
Hilary wrote: "Awh, Tristram, I actually liked this section. I relished the return and servility of dear old Mark. Don't you wish that you were as simplistic as I?! No answer required!Ok I'm soppy, but I lov..."
Hilary
I like your comments. I, too, find that Dickens is finally getting some traction with his characters and plot.
Martin C jr. continues to spiral down in my estimation. What a self-centred person. Lines such as MC jr thinking of himself when reflecting on getting Tom's last coin that "What a fine fellow he must be to have made such an impression on Tom."
After taking a gravol at the beginning of chapter 15 (for the sea voyage, not the writing ;>) ) again we see the contrast between M C jr and another character, this time Mark Tapley.
These past few chapters have certainly not been an advertisement for good weather in England. Is there anyone who creates such atmosphere and mood as Dickens does?
When I read chapter 15's beginning "A dark and dreary night" it reminded me of Bulwer-Lytton's Paul Clifford. Oh, those infamous beginning words "It was a dark and stormy night..." I wonder if Snoopy ever read Dickens?
Hi Hilary, and Peter!Young Martin is surely not a very prepossessing young man - at least not when you compare him to Tapley. Mark's good-humouredness, his untiring helpfulness and his high spirits soon make him the darling of everyone around him on board the Screw, and ironically he starts to think that there is no merit in being jolly in circumstances like that - when he is actually the one who has created these circumstances. This seems to be a clear case of "What goes around comes around" if you remember that Tom Pinch told him that a lot of the good humour at the Blue Dragon actually depended on him, i.e. Mark.
As a contrast, look at Martin, who is too proud to go outside because he does not want to be seen in his present situation by the gentlemen and ladies who had money enough to buy a passage in a better cabin. Ironically, the narrator gives us the example of one of these men, who seems to have absconded with money that does not belong to him.
Not only is Martin proud, he is also self-centred and peevish in that he tells Mark to mind his own business instead of helping people who don't belong to him.
Another instance of his arrogance is when he assumes that the ring which Mary gives him as a kind of nest egg was given to her by his grandfather. Never would he admit to himself the possibility of her saving up to be able to buy that ring because this would make him feel indebted to her, whereas it is his constant mantra that he is the one making sacrifices and undergoing hardships for her sake.
She could probably do better.
Peter wrote: "When I read chapter 15's beginning "A dark and dreary night" it reminded me of Bulwer-Lytton's Paul Clifford. Oh, those infamous beginning words "It was a dark and stormy night...""Peter,
you probably know there is something called a Bulwer Lytton Contest, which consists in writing (or finding?) the very worst first sentence of a novel? By the way, I once read Paul Clifford, and I found it a novel that is direly underestimated even though its initial sentence does not quite stand out as an example of good writing.
Dickens, in his description of the little ship toiling through an enraged sea, is far superior to Bulwer Lytton, though, I'd say. Reading the beginning of Chapter 15, you can really feel the icy spray of water and the cold wind and you can hear the flutter of the billowing sails. Just think of this one:
"A dark and dreary night; people nestling in their beds or circling late about the fire; Want, colder than Charity, shivering at the street corners; church-towers humming with the faint vibration of their own tongues, but newly resting from the ghostly preachment 'One!' The earth covered with a sable pall as for the burial of yesterday; the clumps of dark trees, its giant plumes of funeral feathers, waving sadly to and fro: all hushed, all noiseless, and in deep repose, save the swift clouds that skim across the moon, and the cautious wind, as, creeping after them upon the ground, it stops to listen, and goes rustling on, and stops again, and follows, like a savage on the trail."
I especially like "the burial of yesterday", which sounds Macbethish.
Tristram wrote: "Dear Fellow Pickwickians,today this is going to be a very short introduction as I have just returned from a Whitsun family reunion. Luckily, it was not at all like the various branches of the Chu..."
You have a Whitsun family reunion? Was it a family reunion that just happened to fall on Pentecost or was it a family reunion because of Pentecost? I find this so interesting because all of Sunday went by and no one at church or home even mentioned that it was Pentecost so I thought that was another holiday gone by the way side, like Ascension Day, Ash Wednesday or Palm Sunday which were important holidays at our church when I was a child and now even Palm Sunday doesn't get a mention.
Martin meets an acquaintance at the house of a mutual relation
Chapter 13
Mr. Tapley acts Third Party with great discretion
Chapter 14
Tristram wrote: "Peter wrote: "When I read chapter 15's beginning "A dark and dreary night" it reminded me of Bulwer-Lytton's Paul Clifford. Oh, those infamous beginning words "It was a dark and stormy night...""..."
Yes I have read about the Bulwer-Lytton contest. It gets some coverage each year in our media. Aren't some of the entries each year a hoot? I found some reference to the contest on Google if other Pickwickians want to check them out.
Naturally, Dickens is much better ;>). Would we dare EVER run a Dickens "Dark and stormy night contest? Of course not. A futile exercise.
Kim wrote: "Mr. Tapley acts Third Party with great discretion
Chapter 14"
Kim
Against thanks. E-readers have limited advantages, but I do miss the pictures.
Tristram and Peter, I fear that I have never heard of this competition. Sounds interesting.Yes indeed, Tristram, Mary could certainly do much better. If it were to happen that they end up together, Martin will always be dismayed at the sacrifices he has undergone for her and will undoubtedly feel that he is very much her superior, when the truth is very much to the contrary.
Thanks for the comments, Tristram and Peter. It's good to be reminded of quotations that I had forgotten.
Martin Jr. drives me crazy. I was starting to feel sorry for him until the line that Peter quoted from, especially the second part for me:"He found a curious gratification, too, in thinking what a winning fellow he must be to have made such an impression on Tom; and in reflecting how superior he was to Tom; and how much more likely to make his way in the world."
I could just slap him sometimes.
I agree, Kim. He's a horror.
Young Martin is just a bit too full of himself, and even his generosity - or let's say, intended generosity - towards Tom Pinch is tinged with a patronizing kind of arrogance.
Kim wrote: "Tristram wrote: "Dear Fellow Pickwickians,today this is going to be a very short introduction as I have just returned from a Whitsun family reunion. Luckily, it was not at all like the various br..."
To tell you the truth, Kim, our family reunion just happened to fall on Whit Sunday because usually this is the time when people do have time to test the old adage of blood being thicker than water. In some cases, water may be tastier, but blood is definitely thicker, if you ask me ;-)
As to religious holidays, I'm sure that a lot of people in Germany would be hard put to explain the origins of Whitsun (and maybe even of Easter). People tend to lose cultural knowledge, but they are becoming more and more hard to beat on their Smartphones ... oh, I'm grumping away again already.
Peter wrote: "Tristram wrote: "Peter wrote: "When I read chapter 15's beginning "A dark and dreary night" it reminded me of Bulwer-Lytton's Paul Clifford. Oh, those infamous beginning words "It was a dark and st..."Of course, Dickens is much better, especially as far as language and description are concerned. However, I found the characters in Paul Clifford, i.e. some of them, a lot more complex than many of the characters in the early Dickens novels.
Tristram wrote: "Personally, I was quite disappointed by Chapter 13 - apart from the appearance of Mr. Tigg - because Mark Tapley's walking into Martin's room and offering himself as a servant is so contrived ... alas!"Contrived, yes, though Dickens is always throwing in absurd coincidences or contrivances, so if you like Dickens you have to expect and accept that.
But I'm glad to see Mark Tapley reappear, and don't know how Dickens would have managed it otherwise.
Hilary wrote: "Ok I'm soppy, but I loved the meeting of Martin and Mary in St James's Park with Mr Tapley discreetly admiring the fog in the sky while the lovers enjoy a degree of privacy. "I'm not soppy, in fact some accuse me of being a grump, but I loved it too. It was time we had some simple, honest, non-combative interactions. We've had way too much of the other for my taste.
Hilary wrote: " I'd take a dozen 'Mark Tapley's for one young Martin Chuzzlewit any day. "Me too.
I was wondering when reading about Martin and Mark's trip to America if Dickens was as sick on his trip across the Atlantic as Martin was so I went and dug out American Notes. I don't want to say too much since some of you might not have read it but I did smile at this line having just read Barnaby:"If I may be allowed to illustrate my state of mind by such an example, I should say that I was exactly in the condition of the elder Mr. Willet, after the incursion of the rioters into his bar at Chigwell."
That's wonderful, Kim!
Tristram wrote: "Hi Hilary, and Peter!Young Martin is surely not a very prepossessing young man - at least not when you compare him to Tapley. Mark's good-humouredness, his untiring helpfulness and his high spiri..."
Hi All
I agree with all that has been said so far. I haven't read all the comments yet, however, I have to make a comment here before I forget it!
When reading the comments about the ring, I was intrigued by the line "Her [Mary] lover's strange obtuseness in relation to this little incident, promptly suggested to Mark's mind its real cause and root; and from that moment he had a clear and perfect insight into the one absorbing principle of Martin's character," particularly with reference to Mark. Unless I missed it, it doesn't allude to what Mark might think that is. From our comments, I know that we, the reader, see it.
Hilary wrote: "Tristram and Peter, I fear that I have never heard of this competition. Sounds interesting.Yes indeed, Tristram, Mary could certainly do much better. If it were to happen that they end up toget..."
I agree Hilary. I fear for Mary, as well as Tom, his sister and Mark. They are much too amiable and virtuous to be mixed up with the duplicitous conceited Pecksniff / Chuzzlewit family and their associates.
Hilary wrote: "I agree, Kim. He's a horror."He sure is! I think we could use Jung's psychoanalysis here when Martin Jnr says tells Mary that "Pecksniff is a scoundrel". This is what Jung would term projection, where people see the dark elements of their own personality, in others. I think Martin Jnr does the same with his grandfather. I guess "the apple doesn't fall far from the tree" after all. :)
Everyman wrote: "Hilary wrote: " I'd take a dozen 'Mark Tapley's for one young Martin Chuzzlewit any day. "Me too."
And me.
I enjoyed all these chapters, but particularly the beginning of chapter 15 and the imagery of the weather and "A ship!"The personification of the sea was fantastic and I wonder if these 'faces' of the waves could fittingly have been those of Martin Snr and Pecksniff. I kind of giggle to myself, satirising the whole scene by visualising their faces, chasing Martin Jnr away.
I can't find the quote, but the description of the small island (the UK) being battered by such cruel elements and a ferocious sea (whilst Martin Jnr runs away), seems to symbolise a brewing attack by, or on, those who are unjust (Pecksniff et al) and shows the imminent danger for the innocent (Mary and Tom), stuck in the wrong place at the wrong time. The elements have played a major 'role' in the story so far, hence where I'm getting these ideas from.
So true, Kate, concerning young Martin. I think that all of us project our shortcomings unto others, but either aren't aware of our thought processes or don't wish to be. It would appear that in young Martin's case he is much too self-absorbed to care. I'd hazard a guess that he hasn't read Jung. :p
Hilary wrote: "So true, Kate, concerning young Martin. I think that all of us project our shortcomings unto others, but either aren't aware of our thought processes or don't wish to be. It would appear that in ..."I think you'd be right there Hilary. :) LOL
Kate wrote: "Hilary wrote: "So true, Kate, concerning young Martin. I think that all of us project our shortcomings unto others, but either aren't aware of our thought processes or don't wish to be. It would ..."Kate
It seems you are becoming more comfortable with Jung. His concepts are certainly helpful for a person's interpretations of novels, art etc. I often rely on him to help me understand or enjoy what I'm reading.
I liked your comment about the faces of the waves. (message 26) Echoes of Dickens's style and technique in ACC?
There is no writer as good Dickens when it comes to Pathetic Fallacy. Sometimes his passages and descriptions are like getting hit on the head by a mallet as Dickens shouts in your ear "get ready for something major to happen soon" but that's OK. Dickens's descriptions of storms, pastoral settings and even fog cannot be equalled.
Kate wrote: "I can't find the quote, but the description of the small island (the UK) being battered by such cruel elements and a ferocious sea..."Here you go:
"Here! Free from that cramped prison called the earth, and out upon the waste of waters. Here, roaring, raging, shrieking, howling, all night long. Hither come the sounding voices from the caverns on the coast of that small island, sleeping, a thousand miles away, so quietly in the midst of angry waves; and hither, to meet them, rush the blasts from unknown desert places of the world. Here, in the fury of their unchecked liberty, they storm and buffet with each other, until the sea, lashed into passion like their own, leaps up, in ravings mightier than theirs, and the whole scene is madness."
Peter wrote: "Kate wrote: "Hilary wrote: "So true, Kate, concerning young Martin. I think that all of us project our shortcomings unto others, but either aren't aware of our thought processes or don't wish to b..."You're right Peter. All his language techniques certainly draw in the reader, through imagery and emotion.
Kim wrote: "Kate wrote: "I can't find the quote, but the description of the small island (the UK) being battered by such cruel elements and a ferocious sea..."Here you go:
"Here! Free from that cramped pris..."
Thanks for that Kim. I must have skipped over it half a dozen times when trying to find it. It certainly provides grim, albeit, fascinating visuals. But being English, I can't help but think "poor old England!"
Kate wrote: " But being English, I can't help but think "poor old England!" Not me, I love it, the less sun the better in my world. :-}
Kate wrote: "He sure is! I think we could use Jung's psychoanalysis here when Martin Jnr says tells Mary that "Pecksniff is a scoundrel". This is what Jung would term projection, where people see the dark elements of their own personality, in others. I think Martin Jnr does the same with his grandfather. I guess "the apple doesn't fall far from the tree" after all. :) "I know there is an English expression, which I actually like a lot and which goes, Takes one to know one. In this case it is probably true, but then we should do Martin the justice to point out that he is not half as bad as Pecksniff. After all, his arrogance makes him want to patronize and protect someone like Tom Pinch rather than exploit him.
Peter wrote: "Dickens's descriptions of storms, pastoral settings and even fog cannot be equalled. "Even if I repeat myself: These are passages that should be read aloud!
Tristram wrote: "I know there is an English expression, which I actually like a lot and which goes, Takes one to know one." It's good that expression doesn't apply to grumps. :-}
Kim wrote: "Tristram wrote: "I know there is an English expression, which I actually like a lot and which goes, Takes one to know one." It's good that expression doesn't apply to grumps. :-}"
But it does, first and foremost ;-)
Tristram wrote: " we should do Martin the justice to point out that he is not half as bad as Pecksniff. "No, he's not half as bad as Pecksniff. He's a hundred times worse.
I'm definitely the unfashionably late girl to the party, but having just finished Chapter 15, I am very eager to write at least something! Looking over the comments, though, I feel just a tiny bit self-conscious for my interpretations. While I don't condone Martin's narcissistic attitude, I do feel like it's somewhat explainable due to his upbringing. We've seen what Old Martin is like; it's implied that young Martin's childhood was very unhappy. Who exactly, besides Mary, do we know of who showed him any kindness or love in his grandfather's household? Granted, his superiority complex is irritating, and some of his thoughts/comments are hard to take, especially the one about Pinch that's already been mentioned. I just feel like his characterization makes sense for the season of life he's in. When I teach, I tell my kids that they have to make a real effort not to judge characters too severely by our own cultural values and mores. And since this was a very class-conscious and materialistic period, young Martin's actions do fit in with his character background and story world. Plus, I don't get the feeling that Dickens is trying to excuse Martin's behavior - quite the opposite. I don't think Martin is as bad - or worse than Pecksniff at all. Martin's vain and self-centered, but he isn't a hypocrite. He doesn't seek to deceive others by his words/actions. That's my interpretation, though.
Now about Mary - I sincerely hope it works out with them, I really do. I have latent "hopeless romantic" tendencies, and I think Martin's feelings for Mary are genuine and a major redeeming quality with him. Does his superior and self-centered tone extend to her? Yes, but I don't think anywhere near the same extent as with other characters. But besides (view spoiler), what exactly has she done for him? I've noticed the comments "she could do better"...but she didn't actually lose her place in the household. She hasn't been forced to live a pauper's existence for 5 weeks, pawning off clothes and other belongings. She doesn't have the expectation of providing a living for a future household. There seems to be an imbalance in consequences, so that when Martin says, "I have undergone a great deal of vexation and privation... [for you]," I have to agree with him.
I'm hoping that Martin will grow and mature from his experiences in America. Off the top of my head, I can only think of a few Dickens characters who have undergone real emotional character changes (Scrooge probably being the most famous) or have shown great psychological depth (wasn't it EM Forster who said that most of Dickens' characters are "flat"?)
Amelia,maybe EM Forster did not read Dickens too carefully ;-) I am only partially ironic with this statement because I also used to think that Dickens was not too good at giving his characters depth if you compare him with, let's say, Dostoevsky. But the benefit of this group here, besides giving me the opportunity of getting to know nice and friendly - mostly, that is - people from nearly all over the world who share the same interest in Dickens, was to make me read his novels more slowly and to discover that there is in many of his characters some depth and psychology that do not readily spring to the quick reader's mind.
About Martin, I would fully agree with you. As to Mary, I think her position is a bit harder than his, because after all it is Martin who takes the decisions, often on the spur of the moment and not guided by reason but by his quick temper, and Mary just has to accept them and sit and wait. This might give her the feeling of being helpless at times; and even if she is not reduced to pawning off her belongings, she is still utterly dependent on Old Chuzz with regard to her station in life.
With wanting to spoil your reading experience, I'd like to say that most of your questions will be answered soon in the course of the next few chapters ...
Tristram wrote: "But the benefit of this group here, besides giving me the opportunity of getting to know nice and friendly - mostly, that is - people from nearly all over the world"Which one of us isn't nice and friendly grump? :-}
Kim wrote: "Which one of us isn't nice and friendly grump? :-}"
Mirror mirror on the wall,
Who is the grumpiest of us all?
All I can say is that I am judged very grumpy - even by the standards of my native country!
Tristram wrote: "All I can say is that I am judged very grumpy - even by the standards of my native country!"I haven't kept track lately, but I'm pretty sure as far as the club goes the contest is still in a tie. :-}
Kim wrote: "Tristram wrote: "All I can say is that I am judged very grumpy - even by the standards of my native country!"I haven't kept track lately, but I'm pretty sure as far as the club goes the contest i..."
Well, there are some pretty tough competitors here!
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Paul Clifford (other topics)Paul Clifford (other topics)
today this is going to be a very short introduction as I have just returned from a Whitsun family reunion. Luckily, it was not at all like the various branches of the Chuzzlewits meeting in Mr. Pecksniff's house, but all the coffee, the chatter going on, the merry din and the heat have reduced me to a shadow of myself, who just wants to hit the sack.
Since we agreed on opening the threads on Sundays, though, here it is. Personally, I was quite disappointed by Chapter 13 - apart from the appearance of Mr. Tigg - because Mark Tapley's walking into Martin's room and offering himself as a servant is so contrived ... alas!
I have not got any farther than Chapter 13 but since Chapter 14 promises a tryst between Martin and his beloved, it is probably not going to get any better ... [grump]