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Sylvester Group Read April 2017 Spoilers thread
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message 151:
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Susan in NC
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Apr 17, 2017 05:52PM
True - I wonder what Phoebe would write about next? Would she dare to satirize society again, or maybe go in a totally different direction, maybe a collection of Fractured Fairytales?! Something silly and fun adventurous to amuse Edmund, perhaps? Did they have storybooks for children in the Regency?
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Susan in NC wrote: "True - I wonder what Phoebe would write about next? Would she dare to satirize society again, or maybe go in a totally different direction, maybe a collection of Fractured Fairytales?! Something si..."Whatever she writes, I think Sylvester is going to be a tough editor!
Susan in NC: The stories for children were moral tales. Hist Little Goody Two Shoe was super popular. It's a moral Cinderella tale. Hannah More was also writing for children. The children's novel as we know it came much later in the century.
Hhmmm...sounds quite dry and dull, I don't think Phoebe would inflict that on Edmund. Maybe she'd write fun adventure tales for him and her own children!
Susan in NC wrote: "True - I wonder what Phoebe would write about next? Would she dare to satirize society again, or maybe go in a totally different direction, maybe a collection of Fractured Fairytales?! Something si..."children's books were very popular by the regency era. the publisher john newbery published his first children's book 'A Little pretty pocket Book' in 1744, it had poems, proverbs, and an alphabet song. about a fifth of the books he published were children's books. his most popular children's book was The history of Little Goody two-shoes (1765), a Cinderella type story, which had 29 editions between 1765 and 1800, phoebe would have been onto a good thing if she could have written something like that. john Newbery's sons continued the business after he died, it so any books for children phoebe wrote would have found a ready publisher.
Thank you Queen PoohBear and Louise, you've put my mind at ease! I shall hope that's what Phoebe settled on as her next project - entertain the kids, exercise her creativity and keep the peace in the household! Unless,like the dowager, she writes her next book under a pseudonym...
I had to laugh out loud at Phoebe when she hurled the worst insult she could think of at Sylvester: "You're WORSE than Ugolino!"
Karlyne wrote: "I had to laugh out loud at Phoebe when she hurled the worst insult she could think of at Sylvester: "You're WORSE than Ugolino!""I liked when it was describing how happy she was, and that she just needed a suitable place, like a coal cellar, to really reflect on her happiness!
I just relistened to the last chapter because it is one of my favorites. I adore the dowager. I love her comment about not knowing what was wrong with Sylvester when Phoebe gave him so much encouragement. They are going to be such a happy family.
Carol ♔Type, Oh Queen!♕ wrote: "Louise wrote: "i don't think phoebe is interested in high society, she prefers horses. will be much better off in the country. If she had to marry anyone, i think it should have been tom orde. THe ..."I agree. He was as important in his role as Phoebe and Sylvester. Besides, he is such a nice chap he deserves his own romance.
I can't help wondering how Edmund will end up with two very strong characters such as Sylvester and Phoebe influencing his growing up!
Chapter 6- This is interesting - Phoebe comes into the gallery early and Sylvester will get to see her true character. We were told at Austerby she had no Abigail so she scrambled into her dress (tomboy side again) but was so disconcerted with her unproductive chat with her father she forgot to obey the summons to attend her stepmother before going down.
- Sylvester is not a dandy but wears a exquisitely cut coat and has a decided air of fashion.
- They have the humorous exchange re smoking fires and wind in the North East.
- He is annoyed she will not dance like a monkey or try to make conversation with him. She ‘relapses into indifferent silence’. He starts to gather resentment and is disgusted with her want of conduct. So he doesn’t stoop to her low level of poor manners he tries to make conversation instead of following his instinct to go back to reading the paper. She utters some ‘malicious’ remarks and he is as much interested as he is ruffled.
- This next quote really reminds me of Pride& Prejudice “It is now your turn Miss Marlow to start a topic for conversation”. Doesn’t that remind you of Elizabeth and Darcy crossing swords whilst dancing? “I havent any conversation”.
- When Sylvester repeats her cutting remarks to Lady Marlow he sees her burning look of reproach and smooths it over – he does this twice.
- He finally realises she is not shy at all, just supressed in her stepmother’s presence. He mistakenly concludes he doesn’t know he has come to Austerby to ‘look her over’ (like a horse!) and then he patronizingly tries to coax her out of it by talking to her charmingly. That ploy falls flat and we hear his internal monologue after a terrible dinner conversation where he wants escape and he realises he is always royally entertained wherever he goes. It is a bit like the joke about the queen – that she smells fresh paint wherever she goes as someone is two feet in front of her cleaning it up just before she arrives.
- Isnt Lady Marlow set up as completely pompous? Talking to no-one except herself with pronouncements on the parish/the decay of modern manners/ customs she was used to in her father’s house.
- Then we see Sylvester deliberately treating Sibby with great condescension just to put the wind up or as Phoebe so astutely observes to ‘vex’ Lady Marlow. There is some redemption for the weak Lord Marlow here as he is described as being ‘easy and good natured with dependents’ which is a lot more to be said then Lady Marlow’s cutting treatment (ie ignoring them as if they don’t exist at all or putting them down).
- Then the secret assignment with Tom where we see his jolly, upbeat positive nature and his eventual capitulation early next morning to take her all the way to London. What a protective older brother champion he is.
Belinda wrote: "Capter 6 - This next quote really reminds me of Pride& Prejudice “It is now your turn Miss Marlow to start a topic for conversation”. Doesn’t that remind you of Elizabeth and Darcy crossing swords whilst dancing? “I havent any conversation”. ..."Too true Belinda!
I think this book is what romance readers would now call the "Pride and Prejudice" trope.
Yes! I like that, one of my favorites....and Tom is such a dear friend and brother type, thank heavens for him. Lady Marlow really is an old battle axe, isn't she?! Seriously, who in the Regency looks down on a marriageable Duke still in possession of his own hair and teeth - especially when they have a female child to puff off?!
Exactly Susan! I love your comment re 'teeth'.ha ha
Chapter 7There is some comedy gold in this chapter. I don’t think I’ve enjoyed a denouement of ridiculous characters coming to a head in quite as many other of GH’s books. Bath tangle and sprig muslin had some cracking scenes but this scene rates right up there for me in comedy terms.
- It’s a clash of the two titans – with Mrs Orde in one corner and Lady Marlow in the other. Mrs ORde comes out swinging and they exchange blow for blow the whole way through with no let up. It’s a high drama interchange due to the scandal of the elopement and they forget Sylvester’s existence (and everyone’s elses) in the payout of long held scores.
- Lord Marlow at first is the foolish encore from the side trying to mellow the blows being exchanged by the two women but when the horrible realisation dawns on him that Phoebe has eloped probably due to his inaction the previous night in dismissing her claims, then he becomes shocked and very much involved. Mrs Orde pays it to him as well which is beautiful to see her pivot on a coin and lay into all. When have we seen an older powerful female in full flight like this in another GH book? When have we enjoyed the pompous and ridiculous brought to account so beautifully?
- What I particularly enjoy is Sylvester’s appreciative witness of all of this. He has spent one of the worst weekends (or two days) of his life, feels he has been insulted, he thinks Lady Marlow is insufferably pompous and he has come to think Lord Marlow foolish. How much he must have enjoyed this interloper break into the breakfast table and rip them both to shreds! Lets review his particular involvement:
- “…Sylvester retired discreetly into the window embrasure. A man of delicacy, he knew, would seize this opportunity to withdraw from the parlour. He accepted with fortitude the realization that he was lacking in delicacy, and wondered whether there was any chance of his being allowed a glimpse of a missive [the note Mrs Orde thrust into Lord Marlow’s hand] which was exercising so powerful an effect upon his host.”
- That is so funny. Again, we sympathise with Sylvester as he is showing a wry ironic sense of humour about himself and his realisation he is enjoying this so much. You can almost visualise Lord Marlow’s face – in fact it says ‘Lord Marlow’s cheeks lost some of their ruddy colour”. Beautiful. The bluff and breezy lord that dodged all his responsibilities if they irked him is finally brought to account with the full face of what his weakness has wrought particularly in letting his dominant second wife have her way.
- Then again:
- “Lord Marlow was inevitably drawn into the altercation: and in the heat of battle Sylvester’s presence was forgotten. He did nothing to attract attention to himself. The moment for that had not yet come, though he had every hope that is was not far distant. Meanwhile he listened to Mrs Orde’s masterly indictment of his hostess, gratefully storing up in his memory the several anecdotes illustrative of Lady Marlow’s depravity, every detail of which Mrs Orde had faithfully carried in her mind for years past.” Wonderful!
- Lets look at some of the blows exchanged again (because it is so good). Firstly Lady Marlow’s dismissal of Mrs Orde’s request for interview, whom eventually has to force her way in to the breakfast parlour labouring under strong emotion. She is described as a plump, bright-eyed lady and declares your daughter has run away with my son!
- Mrs Orde’s opening salvo has so many accusations to Lady Marlow on so many levels: “I don’t know why you should look amazed!’ she declared her eyes snapping at Lady Marlow. “You have left no stone unturned to achieve this result! I guessed how it would be from the instant my son told me what his reception has been in this house for the past ten days! I pass over the insulting nature of your conduct ma’am, but I shall take leave to inform you that nothing is further from the wishes of his parents than an alliance between Tom and your family! I am excessively attached to Phoebe, poor child, but his father and I have other plans for Tom, and they don’t let me assure you, include his marriage at the age of nineteen!’.
- She has aimed the barrel of the gun squarely at Lady Marlow – saying its her fault they ran away, Lady Marlow stupidly banned Tom from the house (later – ‘she was a ninny hammer to have acted as she has! Anyone could have forseen the result of that’) and that Phoebe was treated poorly by Lady Marlow – I think she says ‘your Turkish treatment of her, poor little soul!)
Side note – I looked up what ‘turkish treatment’ meant. The dictionary of thieving slang 1737 says “TURKISH-Treatment, very sharp or ill dealing in Business. URL ref: http://www.fromoldbooks.org/NathanBai...
- She points out Lady Marlow is insulting and also Mrs Orde is saying she doesn’t want an alliance between Tom and Phoebe as much as the Marlow’s don’t and also he is much too young to be contemplating marriage – which Lord Marlow agrees with (he has some common sense).
- Lady Marlow at her pompous best – you have taken leave of your sense ma’am! A very odd rage you have flow into all because they have gone riding. Then the note is produced. Lord Marlow – where could they have gone? Then Mrs Orde’s classic pot shot at the uselessness of all men in general as her husband is away:
- “Exactly! Where? Demanded Mrs Orde. ‘That question is what brings me here! If my husband were not in Bristol at this moment – but so it is always! Whenever a man is most needed he is never to be found!’.
- That is so funny. Do you think because GH is older when she wrote this she gets away with broader sallies like this? Ie she has probably said this a lot more with experience and time so can inject her older female characters with such lines?
- THEN we have the classic come back by Lady Marlow that she thinks Tom was drunk when he wrote the note which of course sparks Mrs Orde into a higher towering level of rage.
- Lord Marlow intervenes but Mrs Orde has had it and stamps her foot at him..‘don’t stand there in that addle-brained fashion, saying nothing to the purpose, my lord! Is it nothing to you that your daughter is at this very moment eloping? You must go after her! Discover where she meant to go! Surely Susan might know! Or Miss Battery! She may have let fall a hint – or one of them, better acquainted with her than you, might guess!’. Great use of italics for emphasis by GH which conveys exactly the emphasis in Mrs Orde’s speech. Wouldn’t it be great to see this brought to the screen? How many people have told Lord Marlow that what he says in useless and he burbles on in an addle brained way?
- Whilst we wait for SIbby, ‘Mrs Orde at once relieved her overcharged nerves and paid off every arrear of a debt of rancour that had been mounting in her bosom for years by telling Lady Marlow exactly what she though of her manners, conduct, insensibility, and gross stupidity.’ Wonderful. What a mother Tom has.
- Then Eliza tattles on Tom & Phoebe and shows what a despicable sneak she is as she tries to curry favour with her mother at the same time. We grow to love Sibby more as fair minded as she calls out Eliza’s true nature despite the fact that could earn her disfavour with her employers.
- Mrs Orde implores his lordship to run after the elopers and he is so incensed by tieing your garter publically at Gretna Green that he is all set to do so. Sylvester takes his exit in the grand manner and it is so funny that Lord Marlow thought he should have stayed at such a moment “he was gone before his host had collected his wits enough to do more than utter a half-hearted protest’.
- Sylvester shows his fondness for his retainers particularly Keighley whom all knew he was itching to go. Sylvester totally ignores the fact Keighley is very sick as that is just not something he is ever tended to think about. I think he and his servants are all keen to get away. When they see the smashed curricle its interesting that Sylvester shows he wants to make Tom’s acquaintance and says ‘I am glad we decided to push on to the Pelican’. The sarcasm re the horses ‘might take a cold. The chapter ends at the Blue Boar with Phoebe anxiously looking down the stairs at Sylvester.
Yes! Brilliant synopsis and observations, Belinda, you had me laughing out loud reading and remembering this scene! This was one of my favorite chapters - it truly was cinematic in it's grandeur, I could see someone of the stature of a Judi Dench playing Mrs. Orde and ripping into that pompous old trout, Lady Marlow! I confess I'd have to watch it at home or I'd be whooping it up, cheering her on and disturbing other movie patrons!And Sylvester's reaction was absolutely priceless- who among us hasn't been there, stuck in the middle of a scene not of our making but unable to escape or look away. And if someone as obnoxious, self-centered and rude as Lady Marlow is getting her own back, it would be like Christmas in July! Frabjous joy! I don't know if I could keep a straight face...that's when I started to like Sylvester and realize he'd be a good guy in the end, he just needed to be taken down a peg or two.
Oh yes. Judi dench would be perfect or if she is not free - Julie Walters. How about Helen mitten or Maggie smith for lady Marlow?
Belinda wrote: "Oh yes. Judi dench would be perfect or if she is not free - Julie Walters. How about Helen mitten or Maggie smith for lady Marlow?"Sorry Belinda, absolutely no offence intended and I know it's just a typo - but I have been in stitches at the thought of Helen Mitten in that role. It would obviously fit her like a glove! Sorry, sorry sorry but I am in hysterics now. I love Helen Mirren but I am going to find it so hard not to see her as a piece of clothing for hands!
Sounds like an excellent name for a cat!
Damn autocorrect! But I chuckled too, at first I thought it might be a British or Australian actress I didn't know! Abigail that's a great cat name!
That is a fabulous scene between the two mothers. Poor Lord Marlowe doesn't know whether to quiet his wife or be outraged that Phoebe ran away. Sibby has the promise of living with Phoebe once the book is published so she may not care at this point.Sadly Judi Dench, Maggie Smith and Helen Mirren are all way too old to play Mama Marlowe and Mama Orde but they would be fabulous. The Mamas are probably in their late 30s or early 40s.
Ha! Darn phone autocorrect. Helen mittens sisters are scarf and beanie.
I am currently reading Regency Recollections: Captain Gronow's Guide to Life in London and Paris and cannot resist quoting a story here since it seems relevant to both our conversations about Italian methods of seduction and the regency period. In the book Captain Gronow - dandy, duelist and Captain in the Foot Guards - has just returned from the peninsula wars with his Sicilian man-servant and is attending a house party:At this charming house I found a great number of visitors, among whom were Lord and Lady Grenville, Lord and Lady Macclesfield, Mr Mathias, the author of The Pursuits of Literature, Lord William Fitzroy, Mr Garlick, and others. It happened on the day of my arrival that my servant met the maid of Lady Macclesfield on the staircase, and without the slightest ceremony he attempted to kiss her. The maid, unaccustomed to such behaviour, screamed, ran downstairs, and then up again, with Proyd [the Sicilian servant] close at her heels - he even followed her into her lady's room, where she flew to take refuge. Her ladyship, alarmed at seeing a strange man in her room, shrieked loudly, many persons ran to her assistance, and her noble husband, more dead than alive, thinking some sad disaster had befallen the countess, inquired with caution, 'What is the matter?' Her ladyship replied in a faint voice, 'The man is under the bed.' Pokers and tongs were seized, and the noble lord made use of his weapons to such purpose that the deliquent quietly surrendered. This incident, which created great confusion, rendered it necessary that the Sicilian should be sent to rejoin his regiment. Poor Proyd soon after applied for his discharge, and returned to his native land to make love to his own countrywomen.
Men!! You see this scenario in books and movies often enough to lead me to believe that it's a real thing. Some men (maybe most) do feel at least the desire to kiss an unknown woman at first sight. No idea of her situation, no idea if she is the worst person alive--just want to get right to it. I would think the Jack Nicholson bathtub scene from The Shining would be the equivalent of what Fatal Attraction was to men who wanted a no-strings weekend of fun with the wife away--a warning to men for this particular fantasy. :)
Susan in NC wrote: "Louise wrote: "Susan in NC wrote: "Louise wrote: "Susan in NC wrote: "Probably a good thing, can't have women all swoony all the time! My dear departed mother used to say she'd pay money just to he..."Elvis - i forgot about Elvis! just been listening to some of his songs and thinking how utterly sexy his voice was.
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