The Picture of Dorian Gray
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Dorian's rejection of Sybil Vane
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It is the case that most people put on a show to ensnare the other. However, Sybil wasn't intentionally hiding herself from him, he just refused to see anything beyond what was on stage. She finally sees the reality of her chosen career, becomes less vain and more self aware and he chooses to reject her.
You guys are being rather hard on poor Dorian. he was enamored with what she presented on stage yes, and perhaps he was a bit cruel to her when she no longer needed the stage to be happy, but he did realize the error of his ways. He went back to tell her that he was sorry and that he still loved her but she acted rashly and killed herself. Who does that?
I agree that it wasn't intentional, she was far too naive for that, but intentional or not the effect was the same. In Dorian's mind she no longer had that mystique or that je ne sais quoi about her. She no longer enthralled him; she bored him.
Iris wrote: "You guys are being rather hard on poor Dorian. he was enamored with what she presented on stage yes, and perhaps he was a bit cruel to her when she no longer needed the stage to be happy, but he di..."Yes, he was enamored by her artifice, and didn't really know her when he proclaimed his love to her, and he really didn't want to know her.
If I remember correctly he did have some brief remorse for his behavior, but Sir Henry assured him that he was not out of line and that his initial reaction was appropriate.
I can understand how Dorian felt when he saw through the idealized image that he had of Sibyl. He was disappointed that the real Sybil was not the goddess that he envisioned, but it was totally unnecessary to treat her the way he did. He could have let her down gently.
Dorian's rejection of Sybil, I think, highlights the cruel and brutal nature of Lord Harry's teachings. Yes, Dorian was enamored by her. This was based on his preconception of her, but he didn't fall in love with her as a person. He fell in love with her performance. Her mask.I think there's something of Wilde's insecurity in that. Wilde himself presented himself a certain way to the public and I think he may have been hinting at how easy it was to glamor your into love. Be it intimate, like Dorian thought of her, or society as a whole. Perhaps Sybil is Wilde saying that society often prefers a person's mask, their performance, rather than who they are on the inside. And in doing so, their rejection of a person based on who they are really are is pretty damaging for that person.
Dorian's cruelty in his rejection, I think, is Wilde criticizing Harry's ideas of aesthetic beauty as shallow and somewhat insipid. Dorian was just doing as he was taught. In the story he is more like the vehicle for Harry's views and highlights both the good and ugly about such an approach to life.
But that's just my opinion. =)
Young naive impressionable Dorian rejected her because thats what he thought Lord Henry would have expected him to do.
Matthew wrote: "I found it interesting how Dorian loved her for what she was not, and when he came to grips with her true self, he immediately lost interest.Is that not the case with some relationships in that on..."
I don't think that was the case with Dorian. I think that it was Wilde's way of showing the reader that Dorian has no sympathy, no empathy, no regard for other people. They are merely objects to him at that point. He couldn't care less about Sybil anymore. He wanted her at one point and just changed his mind. I don't think that this is a reflection of how some strive for things that seem unattainable and then lose interest once they achieve these things. While this is an interesting comparison and it does happen often because many people like having to work hard for things- love especially- and when it's too easy they aren't interested. But in Dorian's case, it had nothing to do with having to work for Sybil's love. It had everything to do with him being fascinated by her beauty and then completely losing interest in her because he had simply gotten over it. It was just a reflection of his character, how he just got bored with her and moved on. It lead into how Dorian acted in the rest of the novel, sleeping with people once, and leaving with them. It was I suppose the first hint at Dorian's "evil nature." At least this is what I remember from when I read the novel two years ago. Haha! :)
Matthew wrote: "I found it interesting how Dorian loved her for what she was not, and when he came to grips with her true self, he immediately lost interest.Is that not the case with some relationships in that on..."
True, but I tend to beleive Dorian's sudden lack of interest is also related to the loss of virginity.
Iris wrote: "You guys are being rather hard on poor Dorian. he was enamored with what she presented on stage yes, and perhaps he was a bit cruel to her when she no longer needed the stage to be happy, but he di..."She killed herself also because, as she had given herself to him, she could be pregnant and therefore would be socially excluded and rejected as an actress.
Carrie wrote: "Matthew wrote: "I found it interesting how Dorian loved her for what she was not, and when he came to grips with her true self, he immediately lost interest.Is that not the case with some relation..."
Loss of her virginity? Perhaps, but that wasn't very explicit. He made it fairly clear that he wanted her to maintain her mask, her performance.
Matthew wrote: "Carrie wrote: "Matthew wrote: "I found it interesting how Dorian loved her for what she was not, and when he came to grips with her true self, he immediately lost interest.Is that not the case wit..."
Of course it wasn't explicit, due to the literary decorum, as well as the nature of the relationship of Dorian and Basil. But it's implied they had intimacy.
Carrie wrote: "Matthew wrote: "Carrie wrote: "Matthew wrote: "I found it interesting how Dorian loved her for what she was not, and when he came to grips with her true self, he immediately lost interest.Is that ..."
So it had to be implied in those days, unlike today where some novels can be unnecessarily graphic like 50 Shades of Gray.
I still am not convinced that he dropped her because of her loss of virginity. How about all the other women from Dorian's adventures? They weren't all virgins, or were they?
Carrie wrote: "Matthew wrote: "Carrie wrote: "Matthew wrote: "I found it interesting how Dorian loved her for what she was not, and when he came to grips with her true self, he immediately lost interest.Is that ..."
So it had to be implied in those days, unlike today where some novels can be unnecessarily graphic like 50 Shades of Gray.
I still am not convinced that he dropped her because of her loss of virginity. How about all the other women from Dorian's adventures? They weren't all virgins, or were they?
There is no way to precise it, except for the one he gave up eloping with (and expected the Portrait to become immediatly 'less nasty'). I strongly recommend to you Arthur Schopenhauer's text "Methaphysics of Love and Death" for a debate over the subject why some men are so repelled by women after they have became intimate with them.
Matthew wrote: "Carrie wrote: "Matthew wrote: "Carrie wrote: "Matthew wrote: "I found it interesting how Dorian loved her for what she was not, and when he came to grips with her true self, he immediately lost int..."Carrie M. There is no way to precise it, except for the one he gave up eloping with (and expected the Portrait to become immediatly 'less nasty'). I strongly recommend to you Arthur Schopenhauer's text "Methaphysics of Love and Death" for a debate over the subject why some men are so repelled by women after they have became intimate with them.
I still don't think that he was at fault. He was young and was being steered in the ways of the naughty by Sir Henry. I easily forgave Dorian his lapse in judgement when it came to Sybil, it wa the rest of his vile actions and forfeit of sympathy later on that I found cruel and unforgivable.
Carrie wrote: "Matthew wrote: "I found it interesting how Dorian loved her for what she was not, and when he came to grips with her true self, he immediately lost interest.Is that not the case with some relation..."
Interesting thought. What lead you to believe that the loss of his virginity parallels the loss of his compassion and care for the girl?
Carrie wrote: I strongly recommend to you Arthur Schopenhauer's text "Methaphysics of Love and Death" for a debate over the subject why some men are so repelled by women after they have became intimate with them.
Is this the part that applies?
"However, it is not only unrequited love that leads frequently to a tragic end; for requited love more frequently leads to unhappiness than to happiness. This is because its demands often so severely clash with the personal welfare of the lover concerned as to undermine it, since the demands are incompatible with the lover’s other circumstances, and in consequence destroy the plans of life built upon them. Further, love frequently runs counter not only to external circumstances but to the individuality itself, for it may fling itself upon a person who, apart from the relation of sex, may become hateful, despicable, nay, even repulsive. As the will of the species, however, is so very much stronger than that of the individual, the lover shuts his eyes to all objectionable qualities, overlooks everything, ignores all, and unites himself for ever to the object of his passion. He is so completely blinded by this illusion that as soon as the will of the species is accomplished the illusion vanishes and leaves in its place a hateful companion for life. From this it is obvious why we often see very intelligent, nay, distinguished men married to dragons and she-devils, and why we cannot understand how it was possible for them to make such a choice."
But Sybil wasn't a she-devil.
Schopenhauer also made some other interesting comments, predating Freud, stating that sex is man's ultimate motivation, but that's a separate discussion altogether.
Iris wrote: What lead you to believe that the loss of his virginity parallels the loss of his compassion and care for the girl?
Was it her virginity or his virginity or both?
I love,love, love the book but the movie is a disappointment. Is completely different from the book,I was expecting more.
Matthew wrote: "But Sybil wasn't a she-devil."Sybil was of the lower/working class, which is enough to make her "hateful, despicable, nay, even repulsive" to a man like Dorian once the galloping hooves of lust have receded.
Good find (to Carrie as well) with that Schopenhauer excerpt. I'll have to read the work in full.
Mkfs wrote: "Matthew wrote: "But Sybil wasn't a she-devil."Sybil was of the lower/working class, which is enough to make her "hateful, despicable, nay, even repulsive" to a man like Dorian once the galloping ..."
I agree that once he got over the illusion of her as some sort of goddess and found her to be ordinary, he was repulsed by her. However that doesn't make her a she-devil, which would infer that she was evil.
You can find Schopenhauer's piece online and it's not very long.
In order to understand Gray’s rejection of Sybil Vane we have to first figure out why he loved her in the first place. Many of those reasons were listed in the above posts. She is beautiful (sure, why not?), virginal (a bit stereotypical!) and his first love (maybe he fell in love with Sybil Vane only because he wanted to fall in love). I want to add to this the dimension of art and and the appreciation of art that figures so prominently throughout the book. Dorian Gray would call himself an artist but that is not quite right, not in the way we normally consider artists. He does not create but instead admires and collects (he also is art himself but that is probably a whole other message board!). The remarkable chapter that lists his various collections of indicate his obsession with art and beauty. So maybe we can call him an artist in the same way we would call the great collector and salonist Gertrude Stein an artist.
Gray’s love for Sybil Vane grows in the context of the art of Shakespeare. She is, in his eyes, the perfect embodiment of those plays and becomes a work of art herself. He wants "to place her on a pedestal of gold and to see the world worship the woman who is mine.” He wants the rest of the world to appreciate this masterpiece he has found; his means of describing it is as a statue.
Sybil Vane dashes these hopes when she abandons her art (which a previous poster called, perhaps a bit unfairly, her "artifice"); Gray’s vision of her as work of art is gone and it is replaced with the perfectly legitimate view of a human being — but that is not what Gray wants; he abandons her to her fate, not really caring what that fate might be. Lord Henry believed: "An artist should create beautiful things, but should put nothing of his own life into them. We live in an age when men treat art as if it were meant to be a form of autobiography. We have lost the abstract sense of beauty.”
Dorian Gray cares only for that abstract sense of beauty (he is, after all, the ultimate example of abstract sense of beauty in that he is merely a beautiful thing without possession of a soul). Once that is gone all that truly interested him about Sybil Vane is gone forever.
Because of Lord Henry's influence, Dorian would say "Better to be kissed with a lie than slapped with the truth"I say this because someone just posted this Russian proverb: "Better to be slapped with the truth than kissed with a lie" so I turned it around as I thought Lord Henry would.
Is fantasy better than harsh reality?
Actually I see Dorian's rejection of Sybil as a parallel with Romeo's rejection of his Rosaline. I truly believe that there's a part of our brain that develops later than other parts that encourages empathy and makes it more likely that we'll think about the ramifications of our actions. I don't think Dorian was at that stage yet.
Edward wrote: Without doubt. But, is reality always harsh?Not necessarily, and in Dorian's case, reality wasn't harsh, just dull and boring.
Rob wrote: "Young naive impressionable Dorian rejected her because thats what he thought Lord Henry would have expected him to do."I think that is a really good point, Rob. Dorian was influenced by Lord Henry to despise Sybil and her performance--which was ruined because of her true emotions for Prince Charming--and again, after Dorian learns of her suicide, when Henry convinces Dorian that his grief is unnecessary.
Rob wrote: "Young naive impressionable Dorian rejected her because thats what he thought Lord Henry would have expected him to do."It makes sense, especially because Dorian took Lord Henry to the theatre to impress him with the great talent of Sybil. He was not only disappointed by her bad performance, but actually embarrassed in front of the man he was trying to impress.
How about her name "Vane". Does it have symbolic meaning? Sounding like vain, when she actually was very humble?
Matthew wrote: "How about her name "Vane". Does it have symbolic meaning? Sounding like vain, when she actually was very humble?"No clue. Sybil has a meaning too (in ancient Greece).
Laura wrote: No clue. Sybil has a meaning too (in ancient Greece)."
Here's a concise description of Sybil or the Sybils, since there were more than one.
http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/t...
I don't see how her character relates to these ancient prophetesses, but I'm sure that Wilde had some hidden meaning behind that name.
Matthew wrote: "How about her name "Vane". Does it have symbolic meaning? Sounding like vain, when she actually was very humble?"Also 'vane' as in weather vane. Perhaps she is supposed to server as his (discarded) moral compass?
"frenzied woman from whose lips the gods speak" + "device to show the direction of the wind"
Not sure there's anything there.
Somerandom wrote: "Dorian's rejection of Sybil, I think, highlights the cruel and brutal nature of Lord Harry's teachings. Yes, Dorian was enamored by her. This was based on his preconception of her, but he didn't fa..."Great analysis. I might even add a thought that we, as humans, are enamored by the concept of perfection. Not just absolute perfection, often specific or localized perfections. Some people embody that concept, through masks, which leads to a fascination. In a lot of life´s aspects, we just expect things to be perfect, and get let down, or mad, when they aren´t, and this leads to some things "losing their magic" or whatever. Of course, perfection attained through masks is fake (and otherwise is quite unachievable, i think), but we have a hard time dealing with that disappointment, just like Dorian.
Sorry for bad english =)
I think Dorian fell in love with the actress rather than the human she actually was and the same way he fell in love with his picture rather than his own spiritual self. It represents the superficiality of his attraction and so relentless it turned out to be that it claimed the lives of both lovers.
Matthew wrote: "Iris wrote: "You guys are being rather hard on poor Dorian. he was enamored with what she presented on stage yes, and perhaps he was a bit cruel to her when she no longer needed the stage to be hap..."i have to agree to that im afraid. the way he treated her is inexcusable. she told him that she actred poorly because of her love to him and though unfortunate, it is a compliment after all.
i think another aspect of his rejection was embarassment as well though. he had been showing off, telling his friends she was a goddess on stage and that he was going to make her huge etc. he simply loved her for her capabilities, her beauty and her acting, thats it. he fell in love with the characters she acted, not with her. when those characters were gone, his friends saw the poor acting, he was embarassed of having bragged and of having believed what he did.
To me Sybil seemed somewhat slightly bonkers. It's as if she behaves as though she's PERMENANTLY on stage. Most noted when she's in her mother's living room, prancing around and constantly referring to Dorian as Prince Charming. Her acting was perhaps her way of escaping the harsh realities of her impoverished lifestyle. When she and Dorian start a relationship, it's as if being in love with Dorian then becomes the escape from her life and so she neglects her acting. And she just so happens to start doing this on the very night that Dorian decides to invite his chums along to watch her perform. Neither of whom are impressed. Which I think was a knock to Dorian's ego.
But when he quite abruptly dumps her in the dressing room, I thought she went a bit OTT, crumpling into a mess at his feet. I couldn't help but think 'get a grip girl!'
But to be fare to Dorian he did decide he was going to make amends only to find out she'd topped herself shortly after he'd finished with her...Like I say; bonkers. IMO he had a lucky escape.
Russ wrote: "To me Sybil seemed somewhat slightly bonkers. It's as if she behaves as though she's PERMENANTLY on stage. Most noted when she's in her mother's living room, prancing around and constantly referr..."Interesting take on the situation.
Russ wrote: "To me Sybil seemed somewhat slightly bonkers. It's as if she behaves as though she's PERMENANTLY on stage. Most noted when she's in her mother's living room, prancing around and constantly referr..."Or it could be an unsuccessful attempt at manipulation. Suppose Dorian had been a bleeding heart and felt sorry for her, took her in his arms and promised to marry and protect her. That would have been her ticket out of poverty and out of the world of theater, but it didn't work out for her so she was devastated.
There are some men who fall for women like that. It makes them feel better about themselves, like knights in shining armor saving their loved ones.
Matthew wrote: "Russ wrote: "To me Sybil seemed somewhat slightly bonkers. It's as if she behaves as though she's PERMENANTLY on stage. Most noted when she's in her mother's living room, prancing around and cons..."Manipulation? Harsh. Did you sincerely think that during your initial reading?
Matthew wrote: "Russ wrote: "To me Sybil seemed somewhat slightly bonkers. It's as if she behaves as though she's PERMENANTLY on stage. Most noted when she's in her mother's living room, prancing around and cons..."I'm not sure Sybil could deliberately manipulate someone if she tried. To manipulate someone you have to be shrewd and devious. That'd be the last words that I'd describe Sybil as. She had problems upstairs.
Russ wrote: "Matthew wrote: "Russ wrote: "To me Sybil seemed somewhat slightly bonkers. It's as if she behaves as though she's PERMENANTLY on stage. Most noted when she's in her mother's living room, prancing..."Maybe not, but let's not forget that she was talented actress.
Iris wrote: "Matthew wrote: "Russ wrote: "To me Sybil seemed somewhat slightly bonkers. It's as if she behaves as though she's PERMENANTLY on stage. Most noted when she's in her mother's living room, prancing..."Not my first impression, but it would make her a more interesting character if she were capable of applying her thespian skills in such a manner.
Matthew wrote: "Russ wrote: "Matthew wrote: "Russ wrote: "To me Sybil seemed somewhat slightly bonkers. It's as if she behaves as though she's PERMENANTLY on stage. Most noted when she's in her mother's living r..."I would consider that but for it not the fact of her constant thespian behaviour behind the closed doors of her home, when it was no longer required, and refusing to using Dorian's real name but creating the alias of Prince Charming. It just seemed like she was in la la land.
Edward wrote: "She stupidly had hope (see "The Idiot" for elaboration) while he got off in the mirror. ....... Boring details supplied by the plagiarists to supposedly come. Got the stomach or the head?"Edward, I don't understand. Can you elaborate?
My apologies if this has already been discussed but I just wish to pose an idea and question it. Obviously Dorian first desires Sibyl before rejecting her, but could that desire be put down to mere lust? "I want to place her on a pedestal of gold" surely offers some phallic imagery since 'Dorian' is derived from the Greek word for gold and therefore is simply saying how all he is really feeling is a yet-untouched sexual desire.
Iits a formal gesture from Wilde. He kills Sybyl just as we are starting to love her
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Is that not the case with some relationships in that one individual puts on a show to ensnare the other, and once won over, shows his/her true colors?
Do some always strive for what they view as unattainable, but once they get it, they're no longer interested?