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ARCHIVE - APRIL 2017 (KICKOFF APRIL 3RD) - Black Flags: The Rise of ISIS - DISCUSSION THREAD
What is the next step you(all) would take in defeating ISIS and ideologies like it? I'm curious on what everyone has learned this month regarding Islam, the Middle East and ISIS. I personally have learned a lot this month. I think I went in excepting something completely different. I was expecting to find a reason, a wrong reason, why these people became radicalized. I came out with the belief that's it's a mix of many factors. I would say it's when people became disenfranchised sometimes, no necessarily though. I think that it's a big factor in Europe and the US but not so much in the ME. We see very well educated, regular people in the ME radicalized. Which points to a different factor. Is it a problem with Islam inherently? I believe that you have to look no further then the Quran for inspiration for jihad. I believe Islamic fundamental beliefs are against a secular society. I don't believe Muslims are bad people rather good people with good ideals rather it's the faith and the doctrine that is the problem or creates the problems. I think radicalization will fade as education and secularization emerges in these areas.
Mod
I think we have to look no further than our politicians for plenty of the blame - the overthrow of Saddam - the term of office of Maliki in Iraq - coupled with the influence from Iran - had a lot to do with ISIS taking hold in Iraq - as well as forcing the allies out.
Theocracies and religions which try to intermingle and take over political rule of countries only cause messes and strife. It never works.
Whatever religion one wants to follow is their business as long as they are not trying to make their beliefs mine. That is the way I look at it.
Education is a big influence but it has got to be a global education not a theocratic narrow focused study of one book. When I watched some of the videos I was amazed at how little things have changed in various places in the Middle East and how in many parts of the world - minority rights are violated and the ancient past is what some of these folks aspire to. And that ancient past was not that glorious or golden.
It will be interesting to hear other points of view.
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BOOK III - ISIS - CONTINUED
18. "Where is this Islamic state of Iraq that you are talking about?"
The chapter begins:
Warrick writes - "In the fall of 2011, Jordan's King Abdullah II phones his Syrian neighbor Bashar al-Assad to offer a friendly warning. Though couched in diplomatic niceties, it was a message of fearful urgency, a wake-up call to an old friend whose burning house happened to be attached to his own."
Here is a map of the Middle East and some of the surrounding countries like Turkey. Syria is brown and Jordan is in green below it - you can see how they are close neighbors - like New York and New Jersey or France and Spain.
Discussion Topics:
1. Was it reasonable for King Abdullah to be concerned with the civil unrest and potential civil war in Syria whereas Jordan was so close? Why do you think Assad was and is so brazen? He has 14 groups in his country fighting and most of them against him and his regime and Syria is in shambles. Why does he think he has a reason to be so complacent and so convinced that his rule will continue? How could a ruler with a country in such disarray be so emboldened?
2. Should Great Britain strip Assad's wife of her British citizenship?
Interview with the Syrian first lady Asthma al-Assad | October 18th 2016 - this is an interview that is six months old
Link: https://youtu.be/S7KMZexVK7g
U.K. Lawmakers Want the Syrian President's Wife to Be Stripped of Her British Citizenship
http://time.com/4741974/asma-al-assad...
More:
http://www.cnn.com/2017/04/17/europe/...
Interview of Assad - 4/21/17
Here is a very interesting interview with Assad - I am not sure who is conducting the interview (the interviewer could be Russian) but Assad's answers are interesting. Assad pretends that the photos of the poor babies suffering from the chemical attack are fake as well as the bombing of the hospital. He blames al Qaeda.
He then goes on to say that Jordan has to do whatever the United States wants it to do as if King Abdullah has to do the bidding of the United States.
So basically he denies what the world saw, blames al Qaeda and the UN for not doing an investigation and says that Jordan is a puppet. He also casts aspersions on Turkey and said that Turkey supplied the chemical weapons. Assad seems content and convinced that the Russian air force is giving him the cover he needs which they are and he seems a little nervous about their port and claims that they can launch offensives from ships and from Russia to Syria and he is thankful of Iran's advisers on the ground (so he is relying on Iran and Russia). Very revealing in terms of Assad's views:
Link: https://youtu.be/IGxCRMw7Mas (Latest interviews - 4-21-17)
3. What are your thoughts concerning this interview with Assad?
Assad Pre War interview 2006, consistent as ever (60 Minutes)
https://youtu.be/JqQa-QSMMjs
4. Many felt that Assad being trained as a doctor and having gone to school in Great Britain and having married a British citizen that he might be ready to do the reforms that his cruel and tyrannical father would not do. How did so many in the Western world get this man so wrong? Was he more like his father than all of them suspected? King Abdullah wanted to share experiences with his neighbor and offer what had worked for him and to share ideas back and forth. Why was Abdullah successful while Assad became more deeply entrenched in his father's ideologies and destroyed his entire country and his people in the process?
Here is an interview with NBC News:
Syrian President Bashar Al-Assad: Exclusive Interview | NBC Nightly New
Link: https://youtu.be/45odEv_1DAY
In this interview - he blames Turkey recruitment and Saudi money. Russian (Air Force), Iranian (Advisors) and Chinese are supporting him. He states the Russians are legal in Syria because they have been invited but the US in Syria is not legal because they were not invited. Only the Russian airstrikes according to Assad have been helpful to him. Assad claims that Syria and the US have never had a relationship since at least 1974.
5. How were the military tactics changing in Iraq from 2006 through 2008 under McChrystal? "The truth as Joseph and his comrades discovered, was that the Islamic State's fighters were skilled butchers but lousy soldiers." How did the insurgents come to fear the nightly raids? There was a steep decline in the number of GI deaths and Iraqi civilian deaths from 2007 to 2008. What contributed to this steep decline?
Concerning McChrystals Network and how it worked:
Special Operations and Iraq General Stanley McChrystal (Ret.) talked about the evolution of the Joint Special Operations Command and the pursuit of al-Qaeda in Iraq, in particular the terrorist Abu Musab al-Zarqawi. Bruce Riedel, a 30-year veteran of the CIA, interviewed General McChrystal, before moderating a discussion with the audience.
“The Evolution of Joint Special Operations Command and the Pursuit of al Qaeda in Iraq: A Conversation with General Stanley A. McChrystal” was held by the 21st Century Defense Initiative at Brookings.
Link: https://www.c-span.org/video/?310633-...
Source: Youtube
Timmy wrote: "What is the next step you(all) would take in defeating ISIS and ideologies like it? I'm curious on what everyone has learned this month regarding Islam, the Middle East and ISIS. I personally have ..."Sorry I haven't been participating more but I have had to travel...
I don't think you can blame the invasion of Iraq for the creation of ISIS. The roots have been there in Al Qaeda all along. I DO believe the invasion of Iraq did create a perfect atmosphere for the enhancement of the spread of ISIS, but I believe a jihadist movement would have spread either way eventually. Syria was not invaded and yet has a large number of ISIS members there. And if you just look at "jihadist groups", they are everywhere. (i.e., Boko Haram is no "walk in the park")
I think too much hope is put into education. The leaders are not uneducated although most (not all) of the suicide bombers are. I feel the leaders of ISIS use the uneducated to perform suicide bombings claiming the leaders themselves are "too important" to the cause to act in the actual fighting. The leaders also are not "unworldly", meaning they have been exposed to western culture.
I believe the problem lies in a religion that cannot be be fully practiced within a secular state, therefore they have to take over the state.
Mod
Skeetor said - "I believe the problem lies in a religion that cannot be be fully practiced within a secular state, therefore they have to take over the state."
Then Skeetor is that an issue for democracies when admitting folks through immigration or refugee programs?
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Putin on the destruction of the Middle East - then NPR - Democracy Now (2007) with General Wesley Clark
https://youtu.be/jy5F5nDuXYY
Also Putin's ideas on ISIS - very different - he is answering a question from a US journalist at Valdai International Discussion Club in late 2014 (some postings have the question coming from the BBC)
Link: https://youtu.be/OQuceU3x2Ww
Discussion Topics:
1. How can Putin have such diametrically opposed views to what we are hearing and make sense to us - yet his viewpoints also sound very common sense like? Your thoughts? "Fake news" or the "reality".
2. General Wesley Clark just demonstrates with his story what Ike was afraid of with the large military complex. What are your thoughts?
3. Does Putin make sense with how he is describing the Middle East and its problems? If so in what way - and if you disagree - in what ways is he incorrect?
4. Are mercenaries fighting in Syria? Or is this just Russian propaganda?
Source: Youtube
I watched the interview with Assad. He is extremely well spoken, very well educated and is very persuasive. Having a Russian interviewer was defeniatly helpful for him. He appears to be taking a realistic stance, he isn't really condemning the US directly and he doesn't appear to want to aggravate the west anymore then he already has. He was pretty cautious when discussing the gas attacks and seemed to direct most of the blame toward western proxies, Turkish proxies, Al-Qaeda,ISIS and the Turkish government. He is very well calculated in his actions and words.
Putin in my opinion brings up a valid point. He argues that we go into the Middle East overthrow exist govt.'s and then hope to replace them with democracy and that simply doesn't work effectively. He makes a good point there. We are ignorant, our democracy flourished as we grew in isolation from the 18th century onward. We had no regional powers actively fighting us, we had room to grow because we were alone, we were diverse, we had no traditions to battle and especially no cultural and religious platforms to compete against. We simply cannot do this in the Middle East. They are rooted in religious, political, social and cultural traditions, some which directly oppose democracy. They are surrounded by countries some with different govt.'s, some with different religions, some with different social norms etc..These conditions create a hostile environment for the seeds of democracy to grow. We do take a bad approach but Putins approach doesn't seem much better. He attacks our methods in order to justify his own and that is very fallacious. He uses ends to justifies mean but then again so do we I suppose. Id say both responses are flawed. What's else can we do tho.. I'm going to have to think about this a little longer.
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It is pretty clear that he is indebted to the Russians in a very big way - what that payback is - that is what is unclear.
The Russians seem to slide in when the US steps back. They know how to take advantage of the opportunities that the political mishaps give them.
Mod
In many ways - the Middle East is still embedded in tribal conflicts, and sectarianism.
Putin - I do not know if you noticed this - uses circular arguments - but he is very effective in taking deviations from the truth in his arguments and speech and making them appear truthful by blending them with the truth. I found how particular he was in the words that he chooses and how he clarified at the beginning that he personally never said that Assad was no angel.
I did notice him using numerous fallacious tactics but I didn't notice him using circular arguments when I was watching. Now that you mentioned it you're completely spot on. It's sad that you need to be very well educated to notice the tactics our leaders use to seem reasonable and truthful. I think unless one were paying close attention to the rhetoric of the conversation then one could be lead to believe Putin makes complete sense. Difficult and very understandable why people are so easily manipulated by our world leaders. They seem to chose deception over truth in almost every situation.
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And then the next sentence - "You must stop acting out imperialistic ambitions!" - When you examine the source of these statements (Putin) which he made in front of a friendly audience - they are quite satirical. He then says do not poison the consciousness of millions of people like there can be no other way but imperialistic politics. These are stunning statements coming from an autocrat such as himself. And then he swings back to historic events - focusing on the fact that the US and Russia were allies in the World Wars and also that they supported the US during its Independence.
Interesting juxtaposition of comments! Any thoughts?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian...
Mod
Here is an interview that was hosted by al Jazeera with the Iranian vice president:
Link: http://www.aljazeera.com/programmes/u...
Source: al Jazeera
Putins response would be something like 'we didn't take Crimea, Crimean people wanted to separate from Ukraine.' That is his response whenever encountered with Crimea questions.
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At least Putin's response was blended with some truthful powerful statements of fact blended along with unfortunately some very specious arguments. But you could sift through them.
You can tell the difference - here we have a woman Iranian VP who should be able to field the questions honestly but is spouting the company line and told not to veer from it one iota. And then we have Putin who says what he wants when he wants to but he is ever so careful of the words he chooses for his interests alone.
Mod
One of the most powerful quotes came at the end of this chapter:
Page 266
"When I was protesting, I was surrounded by all these men and women who were like me, dreaming the Syrian dream," she said. "Today if I go there I won't find them. The regime has stolen them from us."
Discussion Topics:
1. Where are all the peaceful protestors who dreamed the Syrian dream?
2. Will Syria ever be united as a country again? What is the best that they can hope for at this juncture?
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The al- Nusra Front is launched like the latest Apple gadget.
When you think you have it hard - think about these poor Syrian refugees
Discussion Topics:
1. Why were these folks in the Middle East willing to give money to a Terrorist organization?
2. King Abdullah was incredulous. Why, he would ask, would anyone supply arms to jihadists whose central aim is to create a seventh-century theocracy in the heart of the Middle East? Did King Abdullah have a point?
3. When Assad crossed the red line - why did President Obama still not do anything?
4. Was King Abdullah and Jordan paying the price with a huge refugee problem not of their own making?
Crisis: More than 2million Syrians have now fled the country and been forced into refugee camps like Zaatari in Jordan - now it has become Jordan's fifth largest city! - data as of 2013
5. Is there more that America can do?
More:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/artic...
https://youtu.be/RYmYdKRJPcQ
https://youtu.be/FFj69kN_1gU
http://www.cnn.com/2017/04/05/politic...
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/60-minute...
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/03...
http://abcnews.go.com/Nightline/video...
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"Syria's eastern provincial capital, Raqqa, is a shabby river town with a long history of being overrun by foreign invaders. The Greeks were first, followed by the Romans, Persians, Moguls, and Ottomans, among others. Then it was the jihadists turn. From mid spring to the early summer of 2013, a succession of ISIS convoys rolled in the city in their white pickups, gradually kicking out the last of the Free Syrian Army defenders and setting up the terrorist group's official Syrian headquarters. Raqqa's 220,000 citizens would become the first urban population to experience life in a city fully under control of the Islamic State." -- Joby Warrick - Black Flags
Life inside Raqqa
More:
http://www.cnn.com/2016/11/07/middlee...
Discussion Topics:
1. Was President Obama correct when he stated that throwing more weapons into Syria would only make matters worse?
2. However, President Obama also said - "The only trigger for a U.S. military response, he said, would be if Assad used chemical weapons, something that the civilized world has recognized should be out of bounds" - And then they did. Or did they? Ghouta happened. What happened and then what should have happened in your opinion?
3. Did President Obama in showing restraint show great strength or great weakness?
More:
http://www.cnn.com/2017/04/04/middlee...
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-...
http://www.cnn.com/2017/04/20/middlee...
http://www.cnn.com/2017/04/26/europe/...
https://youtu.be/ilanR5_YeEo
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2015/08...
https://www.theguardian.com/world/201...
"Washington's disarray over the chemical strikes looked even worse from the inside. Syria's "wicked problem," as Secretary of State Hillary Clinton famously called it, had split the National Security Council and was now creating casualties among the president's senior advisors.
Frederick C. Hof, the senior diplomat who helped coordinate the administration's response to Syria, resigned in frustration in late 2012. Now, Robert S. Ford, the exiled ambassador to Damascus, was beginning to consider quitting." - quote page 294
In an article - Frederick C. Hof wrote:
But no. It took me the better part of eighteen months to comprehend fully the scope of an unfolding humanitarian and political catastrophe. By September 2012, when I resigned my State Department post as adviser on Syrian political transition to Secretary of State Hillary Clinton, I knew that Syria was plunging into an uncharted abyss—a humanitarian abomination of the first order. And I knew that the White House had little appetite for protecting civilians (beyond writing checks for refugee relief) and little interest in even devising a strategy to implement President Barack Obama’s stated desire that Syrian President Bashar Assad step aside. But at the beginning, nothing drawn from my many years of involvement in Syria inspired accurate prophesy. __Frederick C. Hof
Remainder of article:
http://www.politico.com/magazine/stor...
4. What are your thoughts on the Politico article written by Hof which describes the events of Chapter 21 that he was involved in along with Ford?
Frederick C. Hof
"Unintended consequences come from inaction as well"__Frederick C. Hof
Video: http://www.cnn.com/2015/10/28/world/s...
But Obama finally went to Congress to seek approval for a strike in Syria and the British struck it down in Parliament - see New York Times article and video - By PETER BAKER and JONATHAN WEISMAN - AUG. 31, 2013
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/01/wor...
5. Was part of the cause of inaction or a late call to action by President Obama due to the lack of support by Congress, the Allies and even the American people?
6. How can Congress - the same Congress that turned Obama down be so self righteous about their inaction and refusal to act in 2013? How can the Republican Congress which said no to helping Syria believe that sending Tomahawk missiles to an airport help with the Syrian crisis of huge proportions?
Sources: CNN, BBC, Human Rights Watch, Youtube, Al Jazeera, The Guardian, Politico, The New York Times
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Quote - page 296 and 297
At the root of the spring's dramatic events was a conflict between Iraq's Shiite government and one Sunni tribe, the Dulaims. It happened to be the familial clan of Zaydan al-Jabiri, the Ramadi sheikh and rancher who had been caught in the fight against Zarqawi nearly a decade earlier. Zaydan had first watched his fellow tribesmen take up arms against the Americans in 2004, amid soaring anger over the occupation. He had then been a key participant in the anti-Zarqawi backlash known as the Anbar Awakening, when tribal militias helped drive insurgents out of their villages. Now the currents had shifted again, and Zaydan would watch with approval as his entire tribe rose up against an Iraqi government that many Dualism saw as a greater threat than Zarqawi had ever been.
Jabiri
Discussion Topics:
1. What exactly is the position of these tribes and tribal leaders?
West Warned Over ISIS And Sunni-Iraqi Alliance
An Iraqi tribal leader threatens to join forces with extremists unless the West pledges to support the country's Sunni tribes
http://news.sky.com/story/west-warned...
2. How does Jabiri claim that if the West does not pull support for the Maliki government that they would be forced to join ISIS? Does it appear to anybody else that he is jockeying for the best position and making an offer that he knows will be refused?
3. If Bremer had forced a government that included the Sunnis who had ruled Iraq until the invasion when the government appeared to be handed to the Shiites - could things have been different or was there always going to be this tribal mentality?
4. Jabiri stated - "The ones who are leading now were thieves, bandits, and sectarian religious parties," referring to the cohort in power since Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki's narrow election in 2010. "Even with all of the bad things the Americans did in Anbar, they didn't kill people in mosques, and they respected our religion. Those who are with the Iranians do not. They want to get rid of everything called "Sunni." I'm not saying that the Americans were great, but they were better than these."
a) Did Jabiri have a point or any truth in his arguments? What was truthful from your viewpoint?
b) In the Middle East before Saddam Hussein was overthrown - there was no ISIS in Iraq or Syria and Iraq kept Iran at bay. Was Bush's involvement not only a mistake for Iraq but one that was felt across the Middle East? Did Bush cause ISIS? It seems that Jabiri is leaning towards the beginning of the issue being the invasion not the election which cemented the problem. What are your thoughts on Jabiri's words and claims?
c) Abdul-attar Abu Risha was leader of the Anbar Salvation Council, also known as the Anbar Awakening — an alliance of clans backing the Iraqi government and U.S. forces. Was his assassination a blow to the US? See New York Times article - Dec. 22, 2007
See article - http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/anba...
Also: current article - Iraqi Solutions to Iraqi Problems
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/i...
More:
http://www.weeklystandard.com/underst...
https://www.nytimes.com/video/world/1...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=69JvL...
d) Is it just about the money and who is the highest bidder? If so Putin has a bit of a point although he blends some facts with fiction.
e) The New York Times video was terribly discouraging - seeing money just handed out and one can't be sure if there was any gratitude whatsoever. What are your thoughts? (date of video - December 2007) - The local police officer does say that the entire area was not supported by the new Iraqi government only the Marines.
Source: Sky News, Huffpost, The Weekly Standard, The New York Times
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The book ends on this note -
"As they walked, four Jordanian fighter jets appeared on the horizon, returning from a bombing run north of the border. They streaked past the pilot's house in formation, then turned westward in a wide arc, past the town of Karak, with its crumbling Crusader castle, and over the ancient highway once used by Ikhwan horseman riding in from the East to murder or pillage. The jets scraped the edges of Zarqa, the industrial town where a troubled youth named Ahmad had grown into a dangerous radical who called himself Zarqawi. Then they landed at the newly bustling Mwaffaq Air Base, where jets from a half-dozen countries, most of them Muslim, were being armed and fueled for strikes against the Islamic State.
The next morning, with fresh bombs attached to their wings, they would head north to attack again.
Discussion Topics:
1. What are your thoughts about the book in general and the story it told?
2. What are your thoughts on the future of Syria, Iraq and the Middle East? The refugees - will there be any future for them outside of the refugee camps?
3. Will ISIS be defeated and replaced by hope for the region and a better narrative for the futures of the people of the Middle Eastern countries affected?
4. What do you think the future holds for McChrystal beyond consulting and his Senior Fellowship at Yale?
5. Finally and in tribute of the pilot al-Kasabeh - how was his murder the turning point for Arabs in the Middle East in their fight against ISIS?
In tribute:
http://www.cnn.com/2015/01/29/middlee...
First Lieutenant Muath Safi Yusef al-Kasasbeh of the Jordanian Air Force and from Karak, Jordan
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As moderator and group leader - I have now completed the book and the discussion topic areas which are still open for discussion.
I found this book to be "gripping and an exceptional read". Those of you who have not begun reading this selection - remember - the threads are always open.
This week will conclude the formal discussion period for this book since this was selected to be the April Book of the Month. I enjoyed the discussion and participation of those who were with me on this journey and I think collectively there is a lot to think about and reflect upon.
Timmy wrote: "I did notice him using numerous fallacious tactics but I didn't notice him using circular arguments when I was watching. Now that you mentioned it you're completely spot on. It's sad that you need ..."You said ,"Difficult and very understandable why people are so easily manipulated by our world leaders. They seem to chose deception over truth in almost every situation" I agree, especially when it comes to the deception we get from Western governments and media (By the way, I am not Russian)
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I do want to say one thing - if you viewed the videos of Putin and Iran - you would see and hear much more distortion and very specious arguments.
I think it is a sign of our times and the lack of ethics. What happened to the ten commandments and thou shalt not lie (smile).
Are you enjoying the discussion and did you enjoy Black Flags: The Rise of ISIS?
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If you have completed the book - let us know what you think of the book overall and your final thoughts. I was very impressed with the book and it was extremely well written,
I finished Black Flags - very well written book. I was greatly impressed by King Abdullah of Jordan, such an ethical and intelligent man. Where would our country be today, if we had listened to his advice about not going into Iraq? His appraisal of the situation was very accurate - opening a Pandora’s box. The book in general saddened and angered me because I was reminded how the Bush administration faked the evidence. I was adamantly opposed to the Iraq War. Participated in protests, wrote Letters to the Editor. I tried to point out to people that the link to Iraq was nonexistent that the vast majority of the terrorists were from Saudi Arabia. I quoted Paul O’Neill, the Secretary of the Treasury in the early part of the Bush II presidency, who stated that the link to Iraq was fabricated. The Bush administration had been looking for an opportunity to confiscate the Iraq oil fields. O’Neill stated that he was astonished when he attended one of his first meetings with Cheney and company in Feb 2001, Cheney had maps of the Iraq oil fields spread out on the conference table and was discussing how to divide the Iraq oil fields when, not if, a war with Iraq arose. This was several months before 9/11. In Black Flags the author estimates the total cost of the Iraq War at approximately 2 trillion dollars. In 2001, when the Bush administration was beating the war drums, Rumsfield stated that the war would only cost about 2 billion dollars. The US was going to conquer a country of 30 million people, refurbish its infrastructure, refurbish its military, install a democratic government, maintain a transition force, all of this at a cost of about $70 per person! He knew that that was an absurd calculation. It is true that after the Iraq war, the US did almost everything wrong; however, I don’t believe that if we actually went into Iraq with justifiable cause and with the best of intentions and the best of practices, that a stable government could have been implemented. It is a country torn by religious factions in a society where religion and tribal loyalty is everything. Once we ousted Hussein, we, as King Abdullah of Jordan stated, opened a Pandora’s Box.
The author seems quite critical of Obama’s failure to intervene in Syria; I am not. I do not think Obama refused to get involved because he was optimistic about Assad’s overthrow, I think it was because he realized that every time the US has become embroiled in a Middle Eastern conflict, it has worked to our detriment. Although I agree with Obama’s actions, I would, however, like to see the US give Jordan a great deal more money and arms. It is a stable, just government. They would use these resources wisely. They know better than the US what is necessary to stabilize the region.
Mod
President Obama was overly cautious and he knew that the Congress would not give the OK to even do limited strikes due to the chemical gas that Assad had used in Ghouta and elsewhere. They turned him down for limited strikes. And these are the same fellows who are beating the drums now and acting as if America does not remember what the Republicans did to President Obama.
Having said that - I do think that Obama could have done more and should have backed up his own policy there and he didn't. I am not sure if you watched the videos I posted but they just gave money away to the Iraqis without any return on it whatsoever and here is King Abdullah doing the heavy lifting with the Syrian refugee crisis and he is doing his best. Let us maintain our friends and help them.
And Black Flags was extremely well written and is an eye opener for anybody who takes the time to read it.
Hi everyone, sorry I didn't participate more. Turned out to be a very busy month after all. Thanks Bentley for leading the discussion and sharing so many articles and videos with us. And thanks everyone for sharing your opinions and knowledge.Having read the book, I want to share my general opinion on it.
The book is extremely well written. No wonder it was rewarded a Pulitzer Prize. Telling personal stories made it so much easier to understand the dilemmas for everyone involved. I finally start to understand what happened and is happening in Iraq and Syria. It is still hard for me to form an opinion on ISIS, the Iraq war, Syria, etc., but I'm glad that I know a lot more on the subject now.
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I think there are a lot of opinions out there for sure on what happened and why. But I do have an opinion on ISIS. The folks who were just aide workers or helping out in a charitable capacity were murdered, the Jordanian pilot suffered at the hands of ISIS - an unimaginable painful death so it is pretty difficult to not see those folks the way King Abdullah does. I think he is a good friend to the United States and deserves more help.
You are very welcome - I loved the book and I love an active discussion. This book lent itself so much to great discussion of past and current outcomes of these documented past events. Great talking points for debate and good civil interactions. This has been a lot of fun.
Bentley wrote: "Harmke thanks for popping in - yes please pop in and jot down your thoughts - it is a lot of fun when there is tons of interaction. I think there are a lot of opinions out there for sure on what ..."
Yes, what ISIS did and does is disgusting. It is so obvious I didn't even bother to mention...
I just don't know what to think of ISIS and islam, of why people join ISIS and do such horrible deeds, of whether the invasion in Iraq was a good thing or not, if the civil war in Syria could have prevented, etc. I certainly want to know more about it. So maybe that's my 'eye opener' of this read and discussion: I used to avoid all the news about ISIS and the Middle-East because I didn't understand a thing and now I want to know more.
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This is a book that is on a tough subject but there is no one who I have read who creates a well researched page turner on this subject.
Timmy wrote: "Don't you find it concerning though that the jihadist don't have to look any further then the Quran for moral support. The jihadist are very religious, that fact that being very religious can lead ..."Don't forget that interpretation and method of interpretation play into this as well. As a leader in the Christian church I have to be very careful to check my interpretation of scripture against the nuances of the original language; what mainstream Biblical scholars are saying; what the context of the passage under examination brings to the fore; and many other things which play into good interpretive skills.
Anyone can take almost any quote and out of context make it mean what they want it to mean. If this were not the case we would not have quite so many cults. The KKK quotes scripture but mainly they quote it out of context.
I would think that this is some of what we are seeing with this issue and the Islamists. They get their teachings from Quaran and in many instances have mis-interpreted of just outright added their own interpretation. Must Muslim teachers in the west would not necessarily agree with these interpretations.
Another thing I look for as a teacher and student of scripture. Is my interpretation extremely different then current scholarship or even historical scholarship? If so maybe I need to take more time with the text.
Timmy wrote: "I don't think that you should have to follow a belief, idea, religion moderately though. Typically following the belief to the extreme is what should result in the best results. Following it modera..."Timmy, is it that they do not follow Muslim doctrine or do they understand the same doctrines differently. Not so much revised but lived out according to the original intentions of the doctrinal beliefs. Most of the difficulty people have with the Christian church is I would argue because they have known someone who did not "walk the talk effectively," perhaps there is a measure of this idea that applies to our discussion here.
Timmy wrote: "The presence of even one passage that promotes violence and oppression in my eyes corrupts the faith completely. If people want to follow their own revised version of Islam that doesn't mean commit..."I would not go quite as far as your statement:
"The presence of even one passage that promotes violence and oppression in my eyes corrupts the faith completely."
Consider that for the Christian faith the Bible is the collection of scripture which governs belief and action. The Old Testament has many punishments that were more custom and culture oriented for that time. When Christ came and initiated a New Covenant with His followers some of these things changed. He was a recognized teacher of the faith.
Example: Those caught in adultery must be stoned to death for their sin. This was a punishment that was carried out often. Christ, in at least one instance in the New Testament, has a woman caught in adultery brought to him and the crowd asked what should be done. His response was not to carry out the punishment called for by scripture but instead he responded, "let him who is without sin cast the first stone." He then began to write in the dirt. We do not know what he wrote some think maybe he started a list of sinful activities and as guilty people saw their offenses in writing they dropped their stones and walked away. Other speculate he started a list of men who had been with this woman and as they saw their name they left. Something else that has always puzzled me...where was the man. As far as I know you cannot have an adulterous affair by yourself. The point is Jesus was a recognized teacher and Rabbi and he had every right in that culture to cast the first stone but instead took actions that spared this woman. His response to her was, "go and sin no more."
I am pretty sure that stoning for certain sins has gone the way of the dinosaur in the Jewish faith as well. So yes the Bible talks about stoning people for certain moral sins but as far as I know this would not be the case anymore, anywhere. However, in this goofed up world there may some small, oddball group somewhere that does it and manages to stay out of the news.
Just some thoughts.
Bentley wrote: Sometimes I think the problem is not that the most strict are more religious but that their leaders like the power and control which they have when those restrictions are imposed. Every problem seems to focus on power and control or the lack of it.Wasn't this also the problem with Communism. The leaders at the top were certainly not living the communist ideal. They did not meet their quotas in the field. They had fancy cars and drivers not the same transport as the rest of the society. They had lake side dachas and other homes, not one tiny apartment regardless of family size. There was definitely a peasant cast which leaders saw as expendable the most notable being Stalin. I think that is what we see in these terrorist groups. The leaders are not setting any examples of leading the charge from the front. Would have saved the world a lot of headaches if Bin Laden would have led by example. Their leaders are not strapping on suicide vests it is the lowest classes among them in the organizations that are bearing the burden of their misguided teachings and political views.
sorry for my big string of comments. I was away for a few days.
Timmy wrote: "Putins response would be something like 'we didn't take Crimea, Crimean people wanted to separate from Ukraine.' That is his response whenever encountered with Crimea questions."Sounds a little like we did not take the Sudetenland they wanted to rejoin Germany.
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Excellent explanation Michael and probably what the Islamists are doing.
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Michael I think thankfully that Christianity has moved beyond the time of Jesus, Moses, the apostles and the later Crusades. Thankfully we have moved beyond all of that plus the 7th Century which ISIS wants to go back to.
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What I read is that the suicide vests are put on orphans, those without families, those who are disabled mentally etc. However the World Trade Center attack was carried out by trained pilots who were taught to take off and aim at buildings and were none of the above.
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No problem whatsoever - glad to have all of the comments
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Sou..."
Unfortunately yes.
I agree with those who have said that this is a well written book. I also found it to be easily understood even if how events have fit together are not understood. What I mean is the author did his utmost to make this a book that can be widely read and it is an easy read in my opinion. This is the second book I have read on ISIS and I plan to read more.Bentley did an excellent job of leading us through and digging up support materials. There are many questions that we did not get time to approach and so I hope people will keep posting even though April is over.
I am sure we have members of our History Book Club who are Muslim I would like to have heard input on areas of our discussing from someone who is a practicing Muslim. I think this would add depth and bring clarity as to the basic tenets of their faith.
Thank you all for a great discussion. As I said let's keep this as an ongoing dialogue.
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Thank you Michael for your kind words and I too hope that folks will dig into the questions which are far reaching, take the time to watch the videos and the attachments - read the articles and post their comments and viewpoints at any time.
We have many folks who I believe are Muslim in the group and it would be nice to hear from them. You are right - it would add clarity.
Yes, a great idea for an on going discussion on the subject.
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ISIS Is On The Decline In The Middle East, But Its Influence In Pakistan Is Rising
http://www.ndtv.com/world-news/isis-i...
Source: The Washington Post and NDTV
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ISIS urges fanatics to lure victims with fake flat viewings, job interviews and eBay ads in chilling mass-murder tactic
A recent issue of the group’s glossy terror mag Rumiyah featured advice on carrying out atrocities in the West
By Tom Michael
5th May 2017, 9:20 am Updated: 5th May 2017, 10:14 am
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/3487134...
Source: The Sun
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Iraq, U.S. in talks to keep American troop presence beyond ISIS
U.S. soldiers from the 82nd Airborne Division fire artillery from their base east of Mosul last month in support of Iraqi forces fighting Islamic State militants. The U.S. and Iraq are in talks to keep American troops in the country after the fight against ISIS has concluded. AP file
http://www.concordmonitor.com/Iraq-US...
Source: The Concord Monitor
Bentley wrote: "Absolutely horrific - for what purpose. ISIS urges fanatics to lure victims with fake flat viewings, job interviews and eBay ads in chilling mass-murder tactic
A recent issue of the group’s glos..."
If ISIS is going to encourage this maybe there is some way for our special ops guys to use it against them.
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The History Book Club
Books mentioned in this topic
The Terror Years: From al-Qaeda to the Islamic State (other topics)The Looming Tower: Al-Qaeda and the Road to 9/11 (other topics)
If the Oceans Were Ink: An Unlikely Friendship and a Journey to the Heart of the Quran (other topics)
If the Oceans Were Ink: An Unlikely Friendship and a Journey to the Heart of the Quran (other topics)
ISIS: Inside the Army of Terror (other topics)
More...
Authors mentioned in this topic
Lawrence Wright (other topics)Carla Power (other topics)
Carla Power (other topics)
Michael Weiss (other topics)
Lawrence Wright (other topics)
More...
The entire book is able to be discussed since we are in the final week and all pages are assigned.
Also if there are particular events or segments of this week's assignment you would like to discuss - please post and begin the discussion of those elements.