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ARCHIVE - APRIL 2017 (KICKOFF APRIL 3RD) - Black Flags: The Rise of ISIS - DISCUSSION THREAD
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He saw a lot in terms of organizational continuity that surprised him in ISIS and in Afghanistan. In some of the videos that I posted - I know there are a lot to go through but they are worth it - you will discover that they shared a very strong common purpose and goal and solid relationships. I think that McChrystal analyzed the enemy and picked out what worked with them so that he could beat them at their own game. And he did.
Though Zarqawi was not book schooled nor considered that bright - even by his own mother - I beg to differ that he did not have some exceptional logistic skills and some natural ability. I think McChrystal recognized all of this right off the bat
It is true - and I brought that up - that if ISIS is blending in with the natives and whether the locals are in concert with them or not - it is intrinsically impossible to avoid casualties -the point is we try and they don't - they actually want to do the opposite.
Nobody seems to thank the US for what they do do - even the British who were immensely thankful during World War II to FDR and what he did for them and for going into the war finally (he saved them really) - FDR saved them "before" we even entered the war.
And to hear some of them talk you would think that things were going well in London (lol).
The younger generations just do not remember or were not old enough or were not even born and the older generations have either died off or want to believe otherwise.
Look at Bosnia and Kosovo - what thanks did the US get for that from the Muslim community? I honestly think that if there is such disregard for help that folks receive and then it comes back to haunt us - that this is why these things do not seem to be happening now.
We happily airlifted thousands of Muslim refugees out of Europe - I am still waiting to hear anything about this in terms of thanks or appreciation.
It is tough to be good and easier to be thugs like Zarqawi was - in the end he got his thankfully but like McChrystal said you have to get in and set up a different set of ideological beliefs that are more appealing and not leave the countries in devastation because then ISIS or whatever the next version is will fill the vacuum.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/w...
Note: I like McChrystal and I think he should have stayed. I think Obama made a big mistake.
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What I am saying is this: (here is a cartoon about the pope)
Now something like this about Mohammed or the Muslim faith would have people killing each other and everybody living in fear. That is not a peaceful religion then is it? Christians are not going to kill somebody for humor or satire. And the pope just takes this in stride.
I think these are attempts to pre subjugate us out of fear - we do not want to anger anybody because it is not right to be the target of any violent retribution but nobody wants to take that chance. Why bother - nobody needs that in their life right?
Regarding your questions regarding the Jordan's King - his lineage allegedly is a direct descendant of Mohammed which is supposed to be very important in the Middle East. His father was of course King Hussein and his mother was Queen Muna (formerly British) - an interesting blog - http://theesotericcuriosa.blogspot.co... and Wikipedia - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdulla... as well as - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Princes...
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Poor Nicholas Evan Berg was the subject of this chapter.
Nicholas Evan Berg
Zarqawi was looking for any American, any American at all to kill - violence was the trademark of Zarqawi, ISIS and their brand of Islam.
Discussion Topic(s):
1. How did Nicholas Berg end up in Iraq? What was there about his personality which seemed to propel him to the "different path"?
2. Berg was arrested and you would have thought his misadventure would have ended there - but it didn't - Bakos and the American military police continued to ask why he was there? Do you wonder about the coincidence with his laptop and a friend of Moussaoui - the so called 20th hijacker?
3. Berg's family has to have many, many regrets. Why would they file a lawsuit against the military for false imprisonment when their son was wandering around Iraq without any bodyguards - not a safe place as they soon learned?
4. The military offered him a free plane ride back to the States and that was spurned too. Is anybody else surprised that an American citizen was allowed to wander around unescorted in what was practically a Civil War Zone in Iraq? Authorized contractors have protection, bodyguards and are known entities. Why was he not just sent home?
5. Does anybody else wonder why a decapitation or any of these horrific videos would still be allowed to be on the internet?
6. How did Zarqawi try to use Abu Ghraib as an excuse for his beheading? Why did Zarqawi want the world to know that he himself had done it?
7. Did this act jolt America as Roy Blount stated - "It jolted everybody's memory again about why we were there in Iraq and who we're dealing with." ? Do you agree with that statement - why or why not?
8. The super group of jihadists that was formed seemed to think that the merger of these thugs was a decisive historic turning point - the violence - more horrific violence seemed to drive these folks together. They used this act as a rallying point and that they were doing it for Islam and basically stating that Islam was God's religion on earth. I am sure that the other religious entities on Earth would not agree with that statement. And I might add why do the moderate Muslims? The supergroup's public statement also said that they wanted to retrieve certain stolen rights (what stolen rights?)
9. This chapter pointed out the stark differences between al Qaeda and ISIS or al-Tawhid was-Jihad - what are they from your viewpoint and how were Bin Laden and Zarqawi almost polar opposites?
10. What are your thoughts on Nada Bakos quote - "Zarqawi jumped the shark - Even Al Qaeda tried to abide by principles, using its theologians to interpret Sharia law. But Zarqawi interprets the law however he wants. He creates his own rules, like a cult. He is becoming a mega church".
11. Broadcasting butchery on the internet is a known ISIS tactic used to win hardened jihadists and violent recruits - why can't the internet providers see how their medium is being used for global terrorism and do something about it? We discussed this a bit earlier - but here we have the "sheik of slaughterers" as the Islamics called him now becoming the Pied Piper of the Internet. Why do the rules of decency which apply to movies, television and radio - not apply to google and youtube (where are the decency rules for the internet)? Or why are known terrorist group websites and urls not just simply shut down as soon as they crop up? Your thoughts?
Bentley wrote: "Leo - I think McChrystal was evolving - weren't there 10 previous generals in his job or was it 12 - none of them were doing very well and I think he knew that a different paradigm needed to be exp..."I'm a McChrystal fan, too.
Wow a lot of info, I'm going to try to read a bit of what everyone linked and come back to you all.
Bentley wrote: "I do not think that we need to justify humor - laughter is really the best anecdote for this crazy world.What I am saying is this: (here is a cartoon about the pope)
Now something like this ab..."
I'm tracking now with your satire stance now. Makes sense. Thanks for the links. Looking at them now.
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Leo - that is why we are so lucky to live in a country where humor and satire are welcomed and allowed. Only dictatorships and theocracies seem to have a problem with humor and that is a big, big difference between the two. Freedom of speech and expression is huge. And being able to get rid of incumbents if they are not performing as their constituencies want them to. The founding fathers were right in terms of checks and balances and separation of church from state.
You are welcome about the links and I think McChrystal was our loss.
Bentley wrote: "Timmy there is no rush.Leo - that is why we are so lucky to live in a country where humor and satire are welcomed and allowed. Only dictatorships and theocracies seem to have a problem with humor..."
Agreed, we are very fortunate in many ways. I am happy with our current state of affairs concerning freedom of expression. We have a few contentious issues(burning the American flag, flying the Confederate flag, the immunity for those speaking out against public figures, and government monitoring), but honestly not nearly as many issues as most countries. I am generally a big fan of John Adams who fought for many of these freedoms, but I did not agree with his Alien and Sedition Acts that limited free speech. I think there should be (and there is currently) a certain amount of immunity for people giving their opinion of public figures.
-Leo
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Leo - that is why we are so lucky to live in a country where humor and satire are welcomed and allowed. Only dictatorships and theocracies seem to have a pr..."
I agree and even the best of leaders like Adams have their stumbles and want to enlarge the scope of powers ostensibly for security and protection which is usually a fallacy for wanting additional power and control. Yes right now the press is OK and I hope we keep things that way for them. I watched horrified I think while Turkey gave up their rights and their democracy - what are they thinking? Just a digression but they as a country are tied up in this situation with Syria etc.
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Our Last Best Chance: The Pursuit of Peace in a Time of Peril
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Abdullah II of JordanSynopsis:
A newsbreaking memoir that tackles head-on the toughest challenge in the world today.
When a dying King Hussein shocked the world by picking his son rather than his brother, the longtime crown prince, to be the next king of Jordan, no one was more surprised than the young head of Special Operations, who discovered his life was in for a major upheaval.
This is the inspirational story of a young prince who went to boarding school in America and military academy in Britain and grew up believing he would be a soldier. Back home, he hunted down terrorists and modernized Jordan's Special Forces. Then, suddenly, he found himself king. Together with his wife, Queen Rania, he transformed what it meant to be a monarch, going undercover to escape the bubble of the court while she became the Muslim world's most passionate advocate of women's rights.
In this exceptionally candid memoir, King Abdullah tackles the single toughest issue he faces head-on- how to solve the Israeli-Palestinian standoff- and reveals himself to be an invaluable intermediary between America and the Arab world. He writes about the impact of the Iraq war on his neighborhood and how best to tackle Iran's nuclear ambitions.
Why would a sitting head of state choose to write about the most explosive issues he faces? King Abdullah does so now because he believes we face a moment of truth: a last chance for peace in the Middle East. The prize is enormous, the cost of failure far greater than we dare imagine.
Bentley wrote: "Leo- this might be a book you are interested in - I would have just placed it in the glossary but I was afraid you might miss it: (some tidbits - he went to school in America in Deerfield, Massachu..."Thanks, I'll check it out. What is interesting is that he went to Sandhurst, and probably studied and understood the tactics the US were using in the Middle East (most of the counterinsugent models are derived from European countries (I think Modern Warfare that McChrystal promoted is based on French tactics)).
-Leo
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Chapter Twelve,1. How did Nicholas Berg end up in Iraq?
Ambition to make something of himself. He seemed to be a very driven, optimistic person.
What was there about his personality which seemed to propel him to the "different path"?
I think he was willing to accept risk where others were not. I think he desperately wanted to make the most of his talents and he knew the best chance to do that was by striking out on his own.
2. Berg was arrested and you would have thought his misadventure would have ended there - but it didn't - Bakos and the American military police continued to ask why he was there? Do you wonder about the coincidence with his laptop and a friend of Moussaoui - the so called 20th hijacker?
I think this is quite a coincidence. However, if there was more to it, I would think they would have found it. Bakos and the other analysts were very competent.
3. Why would they file a lawsuit against the military for false imprisonment when their son was wandering around Iraq without any bodyguards - not a safe place as they soon learned?
I think his family thought the military had done something to their son and that the military was trying to suppress what they had done. So, the family filed suit to bring media attention, which is normally the only thing that gets the government to move.
4. Is anybody else surprised that an American citizen was allowed to wander around unescorted in what was practically a Civil War Zone in Iraq? Authorized contractors have protection, bodyguards and are known entities. Why was he not just sent home?
I am not surprised. We do not restrict the travel of our citizens in foreign countries unless the area is controlled completely by the US military or there is active combat taking place. The only persons, I believe, we can restrict are government employees or military personnel who are not on official duty. I am sure they tried to send him home, but did not have the power to force him to leave. They could have forced, or asked, what existed of the Iraqi government to send him home. I think it would have been in the Iraqi government's power to send Berg at least out of the country.
5. Does anybody else wonder why a decapitation or any of these horrific videos would still be allowed to be on the internet?
Yes. I don't believe this should be allowed. Any act of terrorism or crime should not be easily accessible on the internet. I am probably being a little extreme here, but i do not think these videos should be allowed on the internet.
6. How did Zarqawi try to use Abu Ghraib as an excuse for his beheading? Why did Zarqawi want the world to know that he himself had done it?
He tried to Abu Ghraib as an example to show that he would do worse to infidel prisoners than the infidels had done to Muslim prisoners. A way to show his proponents that they will be avenged if they join his cause and are caught. I think Zarqawi wanted more foot soldiers and knew promoting himself would put him in the position to gain more support.
7. Did this act jolt America as Roy Blount stated - "It jolted everybody's memory again about why we were there in Iraq and who we're dealing with." ? Do you agree with that statement - why or why not?
I think it did. Even today, people seem to forget the reality of the situation. We are fortunate to be able to argue about our leader's tax returns and not have to worry about being involved in a violent act of terrorism every time we go to the grocery store (it could happen, but the chances are far less than some experience). Acts such as this beheading show the reality of the situation and create resolve to end a threat before it is within our borders.
8. The supergroup's public statement also said that they wanted to retrieve certain stolen rights (what stolen rights?)
Good question. I think there are many rights in the Islamic doctrine that allow for the rule they seek and these rights are those being denied. I agree that no other religion include a governmental system that intends global rule.
9. This chapter pointed out the stark differences between al Qaeda (AQ) and ISIS or al-Tawhid was-Jihad - what are they from your viewpoint and how were Bin Laden and Zarqawi almost polar opposites?
It seemed that AQ was more about mobilizing the moderates, the largest group, and only attacking non-Muslim targets with extremist support. AQ and Bin Laden seemed to even try to avoid conflict with ISIS directly. I see alot of denouncing going on in the Islamic world, but no action to resist or suppress. I think that may be coming in the book, but only after considerable measures. Whereas, ISIS and Zarqawi attacked all groups and tried to create infighting of Muslim sects to further their cause. I am not sure there is that much difference between the two. They both have the same end goal, just one is more subversive than the other. Their tactics may be different, but I see them the same. They saw each other differently because they put different values on Muslim or non-Muslim lives. I see these lives equally regardless of how they see others.
10. What are your thoughts on Nada Bakos quote - "Zarqawi jumped the shark - Even Al Qaeda tried to abide by principles, using its theologians to interpret Sharia law. But Zarqawi interprets the law however he wants. He creates his own rules, like a cult. He is becoming a mega church".
I'm still trying to understand the term. I think I lost my creative thought somewhere. I could understand the term if Zarqawi was less than a shark, but he is a shark himself. I think she right though, he was becoming a formidable force.
11. Broadcasting butchery on the internet is a known ISIS tactic used to win hardened jihadists and violent recruits - why can't the internet providers see how their medium is being used for global terrorism and do something about it?
You're going to make me look up these arguments. I remember discussing them when these events started occurring. If I recall correctly, they understand how their medium is used and put freedom of expression above all other matters.
Why do the rules of decency which apply to movies, television and radio - not apply to google and youtube (where are the decency rules for the internet)?
A difference in regulation and access to publishing.
Or why are known terrorist group websites and urls not just simply shut down as soon as they crop up? Your thoughts?
I think they are shutdown when they violate certain regulations. There are few allowances that provide this power, though. Then, they just open up somewhere else under a new address. The biggest place this is an issue is on the dark web where illegal items are sold in Amazon like websites. Last I heard they've shut the main website down six times and it is still up and running. We should not allow terrorist affiliated websites to run unimpeded on the internet. I cannot imagine the force it would require to search out and suppress these sites, though.
-Leo
Bentley wrote: "McChrystal showed the film and the book because he wanted to prove a point about insurgencies. I don't thing he particularly was pointing it out for any other reason than what happened to the French."I guess I just assumed they were using these texts as a basis for their tactics, since they've used those texts in military academies for awhile (especially McChyrstal's generation), but your are likely right...they had probably (hopefully) evolved their tactics.
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You wrote a very interesting quote - "I see a lot of denouncing going on in the Islamic world, but no action to resist or suppress." Also what you said about al Qaeda placing different values on Muslim and Non Muslim lives appears to be accurate as well. Did al Qaeda go after hospitals, aide workers, folks working for the benefit of Muslims in terms of charitable workers - if so for some reason I am not remembering that as much - of course the World Trade Center killed people of all faiths including Muslims.
As far as the term "jumping the shark" I too was trying to get at her true meaning so I tried to look it up:
According to wikipedia - "Jumping the shark" is attempting to draw attention to or create publicity for something that is perceived as not warranting the attention, especially something that is believed to be past its peak in quality or relevance. The idiom "jumping the shark" is almost always used in a pejorative sense". Supposedly started with Fonzie (possibly the lowest point of the show) - here is the wikipedia article - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jumping...
Also Urban Dictionary:
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define...
More:
https://www.lifewire.com/what-is-jump...
Fonzie Jumps the Shark on Happy Days (Episode 5.3) 1977
Summary on youtube: The text stated - "Ever hear someone say that a tv show "jumped the shark", implying that they've created an outrageous episode to try and win back viewers? Wonder where it came from? If you weren't alive in the 70s, it's possible you really don't know where that term came from. Well, this is it!"
Link; https://youtu.be/t4ZGKI8vpcg
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I am not sure what others of you think of the term "jumping the shark" and how it was used by Bakos.
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1. What are your thoughts about Ford's experiences in Iraq? Did you wonder why he would even have gone back to a situation that he deemed hopeless?
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1. Why was it important for Bin Laden and Zarqawi to stop the elections and make Iraq unsafe for democracy? How could they get Sunnis to the polls when they were threatened with violence and death if they voted? And how could they get any Sunnis to run for office?
2. What did you think about Robert Ford's Musings On Iraq?
http://musingsoniraq.blogspot.com/201...
Robert Ford
3. How could any American get Sunni government officials and candidates to run for office when they had been shot, kidnapped, stabbed, blown up at home and blown up in cars?
4. What is your take on Tariq al-Hashimi? Here is more recent video of the man - with captions: Link: https://youtu.be/LG2XoPyt1l4
Do you think that what he has to say is valid? What specifically did he complain about in chapter 14? Did Hashimi have a point?
5. Times have not been easy for Hashimi as soon as the US pulled out? https://www.britannica.com/place/Iraq... - Do you believe that he was set up by Maliki?
Tariq al-Hashimi
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I have placed some ancillary videos, program links, podcasts, recommendations for additional books and news articles in the glossary to not clutter up our progressing through the book itself.
But by all means jump in at any time concerning any of the above. I have placeholders above for the discussion of the remaining chapters for this week above and will fill them in.
Timmy wrote: "4. How problematic was the decision to dissolve the Iraqi army and ban Baath Party member from positions of authority? What problems from your viewpoint did this cause?The baath party no matter i..."
It seems to me that this is a lesson of history that went unlearned. If I remember correctly Patton took a lot of heat for continuing to use Nazi party members to keep Germany running after WW2. The problem of removing all card carrying Nazis from their jobs after the surrender was that there were not a lot of others left with the training, education, and experience to keep things going. What might have happened if he would have removed them all wholesale? What might Germany have looked like then?
This was an incident in Iraq that created too many empty seats. It shifted the national balance of power too much to another camp in a situation when balance was key to the future health of the nation.
Mod
That is for sure and all of these folks had pensions and everything in their lives lost for what reason? Everybody had to work for Saddam - that was their only choice. But what happened due to Bremer and company is that the Sunnis got cut out in more ways than one.
Very good comment Michael.
Timmy wrote: "Thanks for the recommended books Leo. This thread is a rabbit hole I seem to find a new book, video, article to view every time I refresh the thread. It's very valuable but I find it hard to commen..."OK Guys and Gals, I took a graduate level course in seminary entitled Understanding Islam. It was a basic study of Islam and its history. If it helps I too am confused now about what is and is not true Islam in our world. I get the impression there have been some major shifts in interpretation and it how Muslims are taught in the 21st century. For the most part I believe were are seeing the equivalent of a conservative Islamic faith in North America and other parts of the world while other areas are dominated by extremely radical sects of Islam. And maybe that is our dilemma a sect is different from the mainline religion that it may be founded upon.
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Not sure but a new term that is being bandied about is Islamism (Islamists) - a not so positive interpretation like all of the isms which folks are viewing as different than Islam - of course we also have the radical Muslim terrorists classification which also seems to fall under Islamism.
Here is an article about the difference: (this first article is older but interesting in terms of the current referendum that occurred in Turkey)
http://www.danielpipes.org/954/distin...
What is the difference between Islam and Islamists?
You see Islam is a religion that Muslims follow, whereas Islamism is the 'desire to impose any version of Islam over society'. If you want to go deeper, Jihadism is the use of 'force to spread Islamism', as explained by reformed Islamist Maajid Nawaz who helped the prime minister with today's extremism speech.
More:
http://metro.co.uk/2015/07/20/whats-t...
It appears that we want to challenge Islamism which is the group like any ism that wants to impose any version of Islam on society. The excerpt above is from Maajid Nawaz who wrote the book I posted about on the glossary with Sam Harris.
http://www.nationalreview.com/article...
http://www.washingtoninstitute.org/po...
Sources: The National Review, The Washington Institute
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Syllabus and Reading Schedule
WEEK FOUR READING ASSIGNMENT - (239 through page END ) - 4/24/17 - 4/30/17
BOOK III - ISIS - CONTINUED
18. "Where is this Islamic state of Iraq that you are talking about?" 239
19. "This is the state for which Zarqawi paved the way" 251
20. "The mood music started to change" 267
21. "There was no more hope after that" 281
22. "This is tribal revolution" 296
Epilogue 308
Acknowledgements 317
Notes 320
Index 336
NEXT WEEK WILL BE THE LAST WEEK FOR ASSIGNMENTS FOR THIS BOOK BUT FOLKS CAN CONTINUE TO POST AFTERWARDS IF THEY ARE CATCHING UP.
Don't forget the glossary where I and others have posted many helpful links, videos, books, podcasts, news articles, etc.
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
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ISIS moves its capital in Syria
In the wake of increased airstrikes and pressure applied from three directions by U.S.-backed Syrian forces, the Islamic State has essentially moved its so-called capital in Syria, U.S. defense officials told Fox News.
ISIS is now centered in Deir ez-Zur, roughly 90 miles southeast of Raqqa, the officials said.
Remainder of article plus video:
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2017/04/...
Source: Fox News
Michael wrote: "Timmy wrote: "Thanks for the recommended books Leo. This thread is a rabbit hole I seem to find a new book, video, article to view every time I refresh the thread. It's very valuable but I find it ..."Michael,
What are the key differences in ideology between a conservative, liberal, radical, or any other label that may exist for an Islamic group? I am only aware of a few differences from the reading and other texts I have encountered.
-Leo
Bentley wrote: "Folks at any time jump in to discuss any aspect of the book up through the end of chapter 17 - through the end of page 238. You can also discuss any of the events discussed in the book.I have pla..."
Thanks for all the extra links and information. I have been trying to wade through it in my free time. I have found the Hitchens v. Wolpe debate interesting.
Chapter Fourteen,1. Why was it important for Bin Laden and Zarqawi to stop the elections and make Iraq unsafe for democracy?
Yes, without an established government, which is viewed as legitimate by the populace it governs it is very difficult, if not nearly impossible to overcome an insurgency without a stable, legitimate (in the eyes of the populace) government.
How could they get Sunnis to the polls when they were threatened with violence and death if they voted?
I think they should have thought through the consequences of not having a legitimate voting process. I would have suggested a system similar to the military biometrics system that was used to identify terrorists as a method to allow all Sunnis to vote from their residence. I am not sure if this technology was readily available at this time.
And how could they get any Sunnis to run for office?
They would have to provide protection for anyone related to a person running for office. I am surprised they did not take these precautions.
2. What did you think about Robert Ford's Musings On Iraq?
I am surprised how most leadership describes the lack of planning as if they were involved in a causal activity. It appears the invasion was not approached with the level of seriousness and thought the American or Iraqi people deserve.
3. How could any American get Sunni government officials and candidates to run for office when they had been shot, kidnapped, stabbed, blown up at home and blown up in cars?
They could leverage the ideological differences (probably not a god idea) or express Sunni's need for representation in government as a people (probably a better idea). Further, they could attempt to provide protection to all candidates (to not show favoritism to one sect and they would be able to gather intel covertly). Just spit-balling.
-Leo
Bentley wrote: "It is too bad that they could not have sent him home when they had him - he would have been alive today. You wrote a very interesting quote - "I see a lot of denouncing going on in the Islamic wo..."
I do not recall al-Qaeda attacking these groups.
Thanks for the info on "jumping the shark." I would have never guessed.
And, I agree Zarqawi was looking to reignite his or their cause.
-Leo
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It is very interesting.
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I am not familiar with the military biometrics system - could you explain it a bit more? How does that work and how would it make the elections safer?
The invasion was ridiculous and even though Saddam was most hated - he ruled with an iron fist and the country was not decimated, there was no ISIS and frankly his being there would have curtailed al Qaeda to a certain extent and most definitely Iran. Syria might have been OK too. It is like dominos - you upset one and they all topple.
I am not sure about how the Sunnis could have been safeguarded - the poor Sunnis were damned it they did and damned if they didn't. And the story about the Sunni Vice President Vice President Tariq al-Hashimi who was accused of all sorts of things by Maliki (trumped up charges) - fortunately he escaped to Turkey - but is now living in exile is a prime example. Maliki was no angel and was in with the Iranians - see the following article from the Washington Post which explains a lot - from 2014
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinio...
Source: The Washington Post
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You wrote a very interesting quote - "I see a lot of denouncing going on i..."
You are welcome - odd - Fonzie was the originator and the show Happy Days.
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I think it is the ability to be able to poke fun or allow humor about public figures - icons, everyday life - religion or politics or whatever without retribution - humor and satire have been relied upon in our country to lighten the mood on the most serious and difficult situations and sometimes when there is humor even the most ridiculous and intransigent can see how they really appear to others. It does help and it is very powerful. I love Andy Borowitz in the New Yorker - are you familiar with him? Very powerful and very funny.
by Andy Borowitz (no photo)
Hello! Sorry was very busy lately excited to get back to discussion. I've watched some of the debates regarding Islam. I'll like to know what everyone else thinks about it!It's seems like Islam isn't what I originally thought it was... I believed it to be peaceful at its core but it appears not to be. I say this meaning no disrespect to Muslims anywhere. I just think the foundations of Islam appear to be much different then our beliefs in western societies.
Sam Harriss and Hitchens both really made compelling arguments that I think really nailed the coffin for me.
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Don't you find it concerning though that the jihadist don't have to look any further then the Quran for moral support. The jihadist are very religious, that fact that being very religious can lead to these actions speaks volumes about the religion.
I don't think that you should have to follow a belief, idea, religion moderately though. Typically following the belief to the extreme is what should result in the best results. Following it moderately is basically revising is and following what you want to follow which is basically not following it at all. Yes moderate Muslims are what we believe to be more moral but is it because they are Muslims? I would say no it's because they are less Muslim and that's very unfortunate. Muslims are good people and I know many Muslims. They don't follow Muslim doctrine though they follow there revised version based off logic and reason.
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(last edited Apr 22, 2017 10:28PM)
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The three of the first four caliphs were all assassinated by various warring factions of Muslims. There was a strong military bent - generals - so there was a blend of political, military and civil considerations all in one. What is odd is that what the Islamists like ISIS consider as this golden age was also extremely divisive and violent considering the fact that three of the first four caliphs who make up this period (that the jihadists immortalize) were assassinated.
Peace does run through the Quran also - but there are other types of passages which the jihadists cherry pick - they choose the passages they want to suit their goals.
I did add a variety of talks and videos which presents I believe all sides so folks can judge for themselves.
I understand that the Quran has peaceful parts to it but that doesn't make it as a whole peaceful. Bentley I completely agree that Islam can be practiced peacefully but it seems that it requires going against some of the messages preached in the Quran and the Hadith. I would say that the 'thing' leading them to become moderate therefore isn't Muslim faith but rather lack of faith. I think the term moderate proves that because if they were truly doing what Islam preaches then they would be referred to as radicals or fundamentalist, the ones following Islam extremely strictly.
The presence of even one passage that promotes violence and oppression in my eyes corrupts the faith completely. If people want to follow their own revised version of Islam that doesn't mean committing those acts then that's great but I'm not sure if we can call that Islam necessarily then. Maybe it's an interpretation of Islam or a spin off of Islam but fundamental Islam learned through the Quran and the other holy books seems to involve violence and oppression that many modern Muslims don't prescribe to anymore.
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I think all of them have a very strong faith but they just practice it differently and some are more forward thinking than others.
If Christianity wanted to go back to the Crusades - I would not be one to want to do that.
The other differences of course is that the majority of other religions do not have the political mixed in with the spiritual and they were not first founded on the idea of conquering and imposing their will on others.
So things are a mixed bag when you look at religious beliefs - but I think our country is based upon a separation of church from state and equality for women and it appears that the Muslim faith is more theocratic though moderate Muslims are fine with more forward thinking attitudes.
Sometimes I think the problem is not that the most strict are more religious but that their leaders like the power and control which they have when those restrictions are imposed. Every problem seems to focus on power and control or the lack of it.
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(last edited Apr 23, 2017 10:02PM)
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Al-Askari Shrine
Didn't you wonder when you were reading this chapter - where do they get these folks who blindly follow directives and are not that anxious about seeing a suicide vest and being taught how to pull the trigger and operate it?
I just cannot fathom that kind of mindset or mentality and therein lies the difference - we value life and want to live every minute on Earth and we do pray for the hereafter but we do not want to rush it "at all". We value and cherish every minute of life. However, these folks do not seem to have the same mindset about life or death. It is all the same. What are your thoughts about their mindless zombie like approach towards being a suicide bomber? Are they courageous or something else?
Discussion Topics:
1. What were your impressions of Sajida al-Rishawi and her accomplice?
2. In some of Anman's poorer neighborhoods, Zarqawi had been regarded as a kind of folk hero, protecting Iraq's tribal brethren from persecution by Shiites and Americans. Now and for years to come Jordanians would speak of Zarqawi with contempt. What is your opinion of what Jamal Mohammed said about the acts of Zarqawi - "This was a criminal cruel act that Islam has nothing to do with."
3. Does ISIS have as one of its goals to start a war between the United States and Iran as Zarqawi noted? What did you think of some of the plans that Zarqawi had to sow discontent and trouble?
More:
Al-Askari mosque attacked
https://youtu.be/Tpp-5L7vevQ
https://youtu.be/K3zvtW_jH24
Restoration of Samara' Al Askari Shrine (UNESCO)
Considered one of the holiest places for the Shia'a community, the Al Askari Shrine in Samara is one of the most prominent locations for tourism and worship in Iraq. The double bombing of its renowned golden dome and minarets in 2006 and 2007 triggered a wave of sectarian violence in Iraq. Within its mandate to promote peace and cultural coherence, UNESCO lead a project to restore the historical golden Shrine of the Al - Askari Mosque. In addition to its direct contribution to the development of the city through jobs creation and the recovering of its touristic pace as a key pilgrimage destination, the Restoration of the Shrine has become a symbol of national reconciliation and peace in Iraq.
Link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YXCcK...
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(last edited Apr 24, 2017 08:15PM)
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Karbouly said: "We didn't know the difference between Sunnis and Shiites until Zarqawi came. Now every day there is a killing."
Did you think while reading this chapter - how could someone come along who could make you hate and kill someone you lived next door to as a neighbor? Imagine for example - could someone make an Irish person kill an Italian or a Jewish person a Catholic in America and create a civil war in our country today? Or were there special circumstances which helped create these conflicts?
Yasufiyah
Discussion Topics:
1. What turned Karbouly's heart?
2. How did McChrystal get lucky on April 8th?
3. When you read Zaydan's words - what were you thinking - "We killed him. My tribe killed him. It was treason, and he was killed, the way that we kill".
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(last edited Apr 24, 2017 11:31AM)
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Protesters trying to scale a fence at the American Embassy in Damascus. Credit Shakumaku News Website, via Associated Press
Ford was in the thick of it again in Syria. Why was Assad trying to cause trouble at the American and French embassies?
Discussion Topics:
1. How could Kerry and Obama have been so wrong about Assad and Syria? Was it wishful thinking in 2010 to appoint a US Ambassador to Syria where there hadn't been one since 2005?
2. Do you believe that if Assad had handled reform and protests smartly that he could have had himself crowned emperor of Syria as Warrick claimed?
3. Why did Assad want to blame radical Islamists for his troubles when his troubles were simply normal protestors? Isn't it ironic that before long there would be more than 14 different groups fighting in Syria along with the radical Islamists that were not there before?
4. From reading between the lines - did it appear to you that there was a lot of in fighting going on within Obama's administration as to what to do with Assad and what to do with Syria? Why did Obama wait so long and why was he so optimistic?
More:
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/12/wor...
http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Backch...
http://www.cnn.com/2016/08/17/world/s...
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-39562082
http://www.bbc.com/newsround/39528981
Sources: BBC, Christian Science Monitor, CNN, New York Times
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Syllabus and Reading Schedule
WEEK FOUR READING ASSIGNMENT - (239 through page END ) - 4/24/17 - 4/30/17
BOOK III - ISIS - CONTINUED
18. "Where is this Islamic state of Iraq that you are talking about?" 239
19. "This is the state for which Zarqawi paved the way" 251
20. "The mood music started to change" 267
21. "There was no more hope after that" 281
22. "This is tribal revolution" 296
Epilogue 308 - also assigned
Acknowledgements 317
Notes 320
Index 336
NEXT WEEK WILL BE THE LAST WEEK FOR ASSIGNMENTS FOR THIS BOOK BUT FOLKS CAN CONTINUE TO POST AFTERWARDS IF THEY ARE CATCHING UP.
Don't forget the glossary where I and others have posted many helpful links, videos, books, podcasts, news articles, etc.
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
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BOOK III - ISIS - CONTINUED
18. "Where is this Islamic state of Iraq that you are talking about?"
The King of Jordan called Assad and was told to mind his own busy and tend to his own country. A successor emerged for ISIS - Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi. Seals and Delta operators continued their missions.
19. "This is the state for which Zarqawi paved the way"
Baghdadi brings back the worst of Zarqawi. If not for the U.S. Invasion of Iraq - Baghdadi would have lived his days out as a professor. He had joined a hit and run small resistance movement and ended up in prison which became a "jihadi university".
20. "The mood music started to change"
The al- Nusra front opens in Syria. This group received funding from a preacher named Hajjaj al-Ajmi in Kuwait. A full blown civil war erupted in Syria.
21. "There was no more hope after that"
In 2013 - Baghdadi comes up with a new name for the group - the Islamic State of Iraq and al-Sham. Al-sham refers to the Levant. Al Qaeda issued another warning and was ignored. Baghdadi cranked up the violence in Iraq and took over Raqqa in Syria. With Syria in disarray - Ford resigned on February 28, 2014. Ford was upset about the partisan agenda of Congress and what he perceived to be a lack of resolve by the White House.
22. "This is tribal revolution"
By the late spring of 2014 - ISIS had taken over a third of Iraq's territory. The ISF collapses. ISIS began an offensive on an attack of Samarra - its leader's hometown. Mosul was taken over.
Epilogue
First Lieutenant Muath Safi Yusef al-Kasabeh - a Jordanian from Karak and an officer in the Royal Jordanian Air Force is brutally murdered by ISIS. It was this death that sparked a change among ordinary Arabs. Magdisi turns against ISIS. The King of Jordan went to war against ISIS. The King of Jordan stated - "We are waging this war to protect our faith, values and humanitarian principles." "As for ISIS - these criminals - they will be hit hard at the very center of their strongholds."
The History Book Club
Books mentioned in this topic
The Terror Years: From al-Qaeda to the Islamic State (other topics)The Looming Tower: Al-Qaeda and the Road to 9/11 (other topics)
If the Oceans Were Ink: An Unlikely Friendship and a Journey to the Heart of the Quran (other topics)
If the Oceans Were Ink: An Unlikely Friendship and a Journey to the Heart of the Quran (other topics)
ISIS: Inside the Army of Terror (other topics)
More...
Authors mentioned in this topic
Lawrence Wright (other topics)Carla Power (other topics)
Carla Power (other topics)
Michael Weiss (other topics)
Lawrence Wright (other topics)
More...
Bentley, All,
I see Bentley's valid points. Thanks for the differing viewpoint. I'm trying to rationalize my way through the logic to determine if I agree with the conclusion. I'm not sure I have the fact set right. So, let me know if you have a different opinion.
Are we asking ourselves: Is it okay to promote an ideal that brings understanding, but potentially causes loss of life through retaliatory violence. This seems to fall into the necessary evil category. It is just hard for me to accept satire as a necessary evil. I see nonviolent protests in the American Civil Rights Movement and the loss of life associated there as a way to bring understanding (Freedom Riders, especially) and a necessary evil to bring about change. Maybe that is the fundamental question. Is this satire really designed to bring change or is its theoretical usefulness just an excuse to allow or justify the humor?
-Leo