ARCHIVE - APRIL 2017 (KICKOFF APRIL 3RD) - Black Flags: The Rise of ISIS - DISCUSSION THREAD

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Eva I do not know - you raise some excellent points for sure - I think this recent chemical attack had something to do with Trump's statement which incensed everybody that I know - about turning the other cheek about Assad and what he has done.

Maybe they thought they could get away with it - Kill everybody, start over and not hurt the infrastructure in place. If they bomb everything they have to rebuild - but if they just kill everybody with gas - the buildings are still in place. It is a horrible terrifying way to think - if that is what he is doing to his own people.

But I have to wonder what is his end game - stay in power and demolish the remainder of the country to get rid of everybody there - ISIS infiltrators, rebels and civilians alike because it is too hard to discriminate at this point in time.

And where did these supplies of Sarin Gas supposedly come from when I believe in 2013 they were allegedly cooperating with inspectors and turning over any chemical weapons then - See wikipedia article - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destruc...

ISIS does seem cult like from my viewpoint - whereas to me - al Qaeda is more ideological.

There must be a lot of broken individuals who want to die - but why don't they die in their own country if they are so broken why are they going off on a final adventure which will kill others too. There has to be a sick kind of revenge or over the top anger or rage which makes them strike out as they do in addition to feeling totally lost and disconnected. I think administrations around the world better take a look at the disenfranchised, the poor, the folks out of work, the young men especially standing out on the street corner, the mentally ill who are not being taken care of, the young folks turning to drugs and alcohol. Building up the local communities and enhancing the culture in each locale where something besides despair is offered - hope and community. This is not a phenomena that would have taken hold in our country or among Europeans during the greatest generation of the World War II era - then there was community, pride of nation and in fellow countrymen. Other problems are the computers and the internet. Let us face it - that is how they are recruiting - with their travel ads.

And you make an excellent point - folks who see themselves as a nothing - with low self esteem and self worth would gravitate towards someone promising them a cause which makes their nothingness allegedly immortal and if you are mentally ill to begin with or feel a source of emptiness in your own spiritual upbringing and your family cannot figure out what to do with you - then I guess these are the loners they target - those who feel alone and depressed.

I think kids spending their youth on computers and gaming is very very bad - not only for them but for society. We use to be out playing baseball, kick the can, soccer, hop scotch, skipping rope, building tree houses and playing out in fields and in the woods. There was nothing we could not find to amuse ourselves and the key words - "our real friends" who we interacted with and felt an affinity towards.

If these kids had these local affinities - they would not want to blindly kill others like their friends. And they certainly do not have a sense of family or a care at the despair and torment that they cause their tortured families when they have disappeared or worse - killed.

I personally do not see what ISIS could offer anyone, anyone aside from death, ignominy, and despair for the living - the families left behind.

When the other attack happened in St. Petersburg and that one is obviously ISIS related - I thought that this was odd - both attacks on the same day and not being related.

What if -and this is a big what if - what if the Syrian attack is ISIS related too and somehow ISIS infiltrated the Syrians doing these attacks and planted chemical weapons to be used in order to lay blame at Assad's feet and make it appear that he did it - a set up.

I do not think that Assad absolutely has control of his military. Because you have to ask yourself how was the Sarin delivered and the eye witnesses are saying planes. Could ISIS have the use of planes that could deliver this deadly weapon - that would not be beneath them - we know they use drones but do they have access to planes? Or did they time the release to be around the same time as the plane strikes knowing that they would come. Look at what ISIS did to create a civil war in Iraq. Maybe it was not Assad - I do not see his motive either.

But the timing of the Syrian attack and the St. Petersburg one - to me is suspicious. That is usually what they try to do is to have multiple attacks in different locations at the same time. That was also a hallmark of al Qaeda but I do not think this was their doing.

ISIS could also have been motivated by Trump's statement as well - maybe they thought oh no - we are going to lose our caliphate hopes if they all join forces and Assad is not made to look the bad guy. If we can get rid of Assad we can do the same thing to Syria that we were able to do once Hussein was gotten rid of. You cannot rule out their thinking that blaming Assad would not benefit them. I actually see a pretty strong motivation for them or for the rebels.

But the timing of the two attacks is striking to not be related. And I do not believe in coincidences. I am not ruling out Assad believe me - we know he is not a good guy - but it seems odd to me too.

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

One thing that was interesting about the wikipedia article which was more detailed on the location of the production faculties (see it in the above comment box)

According to U.S. chemical weapons nonproliferation expert Amy Smithson, declared sites are believed to include: - a production facility in Khan Abu Shamat!! - could bombing it have released residual supplies not cleaned up? Is that possible that the team was not that thorough it their clean up? Is it possible that it was being utilized by ISIS or the rebels for production again without the involvement of Assad. Or is this Russian allegation totally unrelated and just buying some more time for their ally Assad?

[Harmke]

Eva wrote: "Prologue
Did that almost read like the creation of a cult like following?
Yes, I agree that ISIS seems very much like a cult or at least uses the same kind of techniques to recruit people and to co..."

Indeed very interesting points you note Eva. In these first chapters we meet a couple of 'gangsters' who went back in time in Afghanistan and couldn't find their way in the world of the 1990's. So what's more attractive than to stick at your trusted routines and religious opinions you developed with your fellow soldiers in Medieval Afghanistan?

I am not sure whether 'the solution' against IS is to keep a close eye on the 'marginalized people' in our society. I think marginalization is only one of the ingredients you need for creating terrorists.

I think the horrible events in Syria these days are still difficult to understand. We get only little bits and pieces of information and we need time to unfold the whole story there.

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

The folks that they have recruited are marginalized. They have also recruited from families who are middle class but the majority are coming out of the enclaves in various countries and from the disenfranchised. It may not be the only ingredient but it is a major factor.

Harmke - I fear that the world is doing nothing for these folks and 470,000 have died already - it is very much like folks were during the Holocaust. FDR did not let the folks fleeing in then and turned back more than one ship. Obama tried and did a bit but not enough for sure and Trump wants to do nothing and does not want to take ANY of them in. All of the nations went to the aid of little Kuwait when Iraq invaded and Saddam was not doing a tenth of what is going on in Syria but Kuwait was oil rich with a friendly government. On the other hand you have Syria (470,000 civilians died) and (over 5 Million displaced) and nobody has lifted a finger aside from Russia assisting Assad no less (probably because that is their one port in the Middle East) I have to say that Angela Merkel did take many in and that is to her credit. Jordan and Turkey have borne the brunt of refugees pouring in without much financial aide (little Lebanon as well). But the problem is fixing the issue at home so that Syrians can live in Syria and nothing much has been done in terms of that debacle and in the vacuum ISIS found a niche.

One of the problems that I think Obama faced was who was he going to weaponize - if you could not distinguish ISIS in some instances from the rebels. And that he did not want to do. History has shown that the bright idea of the CIA and other administrations to arm the rebels in Afghanistan for instance armed Bin Laden. In this instance there are many, many different factions and entities fighting in Syria including Russia, Iran, Hezbollah, Free Syrian Army, ISIS, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Kurds, Turkey

Harmke one other thing to remember - the Syrian Civil War has been going on since 2011

More:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegat...
http://www.nbcnews.com/id/3340101/t/b...)
https://www.democracynow.org/2004/6/1...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syrian_...
https://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/19/wo...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualt...
http://www.cnn.com/2017/04/05/politic...
http://www.cnn.com/2017/04/05/middlee...
http://www.cnn.com/2017/04/05/middlee...
http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2017/0...
https://www.pri.org/stories/2017-04-0...

This is the mess that is Syria:


Musa, a 25-year-old Kurdish sniper, on top of a building in the destroyed town of Kobani, also known as Ain al-Arab, in Syria in January 2015. Credit Bulent Kilic/Agence France-Presse — Getty Images

And would you give weapons to these folks:


Fighters from the Free Syrian Army in Sakba, on the outskirts of Damascus, the Syrian capital, in January 2012. Credit Tomas Munita for The New York Times


This is how these people have to live to survive by fleeing
Kurdish refugees on their way to shelters in Turkey as the Islamic State attacked the city of Kobani, Syria, in September 2014. Credit Bryan Denton for The New York Times

Source: Wikipedia, NBC News, Democracy Now, New York Times

Some Question(s):

1. Aside from watching and the wringing of hands - what should the world be doing and why hasn't it done it? Now folks who live in glass houses should not throw stones so we should ask all of us in the USA - what should Trump be doing that he is not doing and in terms of what he is doing - is there anything he should stop?

2. How does Syria get rid of ISIS? And how does the world extract itself from this mess and set up a plan that will work? Any ideas?

All - there are a lot of folks signed up - just introduce yourself and begin the discussion - the comment boxes where the first week's assignment questions are posted all are clearly noted.

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

All, this appears to be a very timely read.

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

News Reports seem to be focusing on Syria as the responsible party for the chemical attack which they ferociously deny - ISIS remains quiet. Russia comes to the defense of Assad.

The Latest: Tillerson asks Russia to rethink Assad support

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politi...

Source: The Washington Post

and

Trump Predicts ‘Shorter Fight’ Against Islamic State with Jordan’s King Abdullah - Tillerson discusses ratcheting up the fight against ISIS today and at summit

http://www.breitbart.com/national-sec...

Source: Breitbart News

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Additional Information:

A chemical weapons expert, Col Hamish de Bretton-Gordon, told the BBC that the Russian version of events was "pretty fanciful".
The idea that a nerve gas like Sarin could spread after a weapons manufacturing process had been bombed was "unsustainable", he added.

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Placing this here since this appears to be a discussion topic - they appear to be targeting Orphanages and those quite vulnerable:

'Jihadi cool': How ISIS switched its recruitment and social media master plan
Hollie McKay By Hollie McKay Published April 03, 2017 FoxNews.com - with video

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2017/04/...

Source: Fox News

[Lori]

Hello! Lori from Iowa, US. Interested in this book because I want to understand more about ISIS.

[Lori]

In response to Bentley's question about the prophetic passage: To me it very much parallels those in Christianity who recalculate the end of days or look for signs in Revelations and say, "There are earthquakes! There are wars! It's the end of days!" Like a horoscope, it can be made to fit any time.

The "prophecy " of men with long hair and long beards named after their hometowns is easily fulfilled by human decisions. This reminds me of those who try to breed a perfect red heifer so they can get it to Jerusalem and usher in the apocalypse. Do you really think that's how this would work even IF it were true?

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Welcome Lori - we are delighted to have you join us - just dive into the conversation as soon as you can.

Having read the book to prepare for the moderation - I can promise you that this book will help you understand a lot about ISIS and maybe make you a bit uncomfortable with decisions that the government and other governments have made regarding this group.

Considering all of the turmoil in both Iraq and Syria this week as well as the terrorist attack in St. Petersburg - this book is quite timely for us to discuss.

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Lori wrote: "In response to Bentley's question about the prophetic passage: To me it very much parallels those in Christianity who recalculate the end of days or look for signs in Revelations and say, "There ar..."

There have been so many predictions about the end of days - however with any of these predictions - you are correct - there will always be some believers.

[Timmy]

Hi everyone I'm Timmy and I'm from New York. I'm interested in ISIS because I strongly believe in order to change something in your world you must know it's ins and outs. In the case of ISIS and most issues we face today we present opinions and ideas on how to change things without having a strong enough understanding of the issue at hand. I believe the information in this book is important for us to learn because to denounce their acts and respond to them we must first understand their motives and their history. Then once we understand them we can decide the proper way to deal with the issue. For me personally I'm excited to learn specifically about ISIS because I'm considered a career in the State Department after college. This is my first discussion in history book club and I'm excited to begin the discussion. Thank you Bentley for providing this excellent forum for open discussion. I hope by the end of this month we can together formulate plans to deal with ISIS.

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Timmy welcome - I appreciate your kind words - I am not sure if by the end of the month - we will have formulated plans on how to deal with ISIS but I think we will understand what did not work in the past and why - which is a giant step in the right direction.

You have to know what you don't know as well as what you do know in order to begin to formulate ideas and along the way often you find out that there are many things you did not even know you did not know - if that makes sense to you. I read and wept at some of the blunders so many folks made - there is enough blame to go around for many, many folks.

I think that is how I felt when reading this book in preparation for this discussion - there were things I knew about ISIS, there were things that I knew I did not know but was interested in finding out and then voila completely catching me off guard - I read and discovered a lot which I never knew I did not know.

And that is what is great about learning and thinking about a subject that is not always pleasant to discuss but necessary. You learn along the way what are the right questions to ask.

I think the State Department is very valuable and though they are going through some difficult times right now - I am sure their presence will be re-established soon and maybe you will be part of that.

And you are very correct in your understanding that first you must educate yourself and learn about a subject before "informed decisions" can be made.

We are always interested in everybody's opinions and I look forward to reading your posts.

[Eva]

Bentley wrote: "Eva I do not know - you raise some excellent points for sure - I think this recent chemical attack had something to do with Trump's statement which incensed everybody that I know - about turning th..."

Sorry, if I misunderstood: but what was Trump's statement about turning the other cheek? I know he lost no time to blame Obama for not being tough enough or something, but I don't know what quote you're referring to.
But this brings me to your question what the world should be doing now (and President Trump): Back in 2013 when the first toxic gift gas attack happened, UK Prime Minister Cameron and President Obama wanted to start a military intervention in Syria, but both the UK parliament and the US congress voted against. Because both nations were rather war-weary and after the disaster that was Iraq with its non-existing weapons of mass destruction, understandably so. On top of that Assad is and was backed up by Russia. A military intervention would have put a strain on an already difficult relationship.
But now some things have changed: it seems to be proven that the chemical attack was carried out by the Assad regime and Russia challenged the US government today to say what their approach would be. Just now the breaking news came in that President Trump is considering a military attack.
In my opinion he is not the Commander in Chief that is competent enough and has the right diplomatic skills to manage such an international crisis, but I hope he has very good advisers.
An international intervention in Syria seemed overdue, but I have no idea, what this will mean for the people in Syria and the advance of ISIS. Will this help? Or rather ignite more hate for the West?

[Michael]

Wow, I get stuck in a meeting for one day and volumes get written in this discussion. I will try to share a few of my thoughts regarding what I have read here and have seen on the news.

I think we need to quit saying that WMDs did not exist is Iraq. Saddam used WMDs in his war with Iran and on his own Kurdish citizens. For me the question is not whether they existed it is a question of where did they go... On the eve of the second U.S. invasion I remember reports of truck convoys and ships leaving Iraq. I have a theory that Assad (buddies with Saddam) perhaps helped to hide many of these weapons. I will even go so far as to suggest this may be the source of Assad's own WMDs. Further, we know France sold chemical weapons to Iraq. France's bit contribution to the condition? A chemical weapons unit if they (Iraq) do not have them then why do you need the specialists. My own theory: Someday, someone is going to dip up a stash of weapons in the desert.

Earlier we talked about how people are recruited to be a part of ISIS. Bentley, I believe, makes a good point regarding the marginalized people of this world. If you have been marginalized they it is easy to become loyal to those who will accept you, house you, cloth you and employ you even if they are an extremely radical group of people. Also, remember that not everyone that is recruited by ISIS puts on a suicide vest. If this were the case they would have no foot soldiers. The best and brightest recruits are well cared for even elevated to a kind of upper class type lifestyle and likely paid very well because of the skills and education they bring to the table.

Those that make good soldiers are recruited for such, paid for such and in my understanding as well cared for as many other armies in the world. There are then those that are just desperate to be a part and maybe even fulfill some "religious destiny" that they are fanatical about that includes many rewards beyond this life and therefore they are ready to sacrifice themselves for the cause. [I know I keep using WW2 Japan as an example but most Kamikazes were volunteers who climbed in a plane or human torpedo to fulfill their honor and serve their emperor (god)]. This is part of what I meant in earlier comments when I used "ideology." Many of these folks are doing what they are doing because of the reward they believe they will receive in the afterlife because they volunteer to "sacrifice themselves for the cause of Allah."] This will never be easy to figure out. For all we know there are as many reasons for people joining ISIS as there are people joining ISIS.

One more comment that concerns me: The UN has not shown a great amount of leadership for many years now. I fear that the UN has gone the way of the League of Nations and without reform will fold up and wither on the vine. I hope that the UN can redefine itself and become more effective but unfortunately I think they are more often than not a waste of resources.

ISIS, Syria, middle eastern conflict in general are not easy issues to understand much less resolve. Being a child of the 70's and a young adult of the 80's I think we see a bit more mess at the moment but there have been messy resolvable issues in the middle east forever.

This brings me back to the Bently's comments on marginalized people and refuges. Perhaps the best thing we can do is seek to understand the situation as much as possible, pray for those most affected and then seek ways to be of some practical help whether that is with our check book, going to help in a refugee camp or helping refugee families that are trying to get a new start in our neighborhood, town or city.

[Larry]

Michael wrote: "Discussion Topic Two:

1. What is the significance of the epigram?:

"I bring the men who desire death as ardently as you desire life." - Khalid ibn a-Walid (seventh-century Islamic warrior, compan..."

Two things this brought to mind:
1. From the movie 'The Usual Suspect', the creation story of Kaiser Soze and the "Men of Will".

They realized that to be in power, you didn't need guns or money or even numbers. You just needed the will to do what the other guy wouldn't.

2. The second was Nietzsche's The Antichrist/Thus Spake Zarathustra and the conflict of the Last Man and Power of Will. [I'm probably butchering this description]

The quote from a 7th century warrior captain isn't a statement in fact, but rather a recruiting slogan to bored, young men.

Or young men seeking an alternative to the life of the "Last Man."

The earth hath then become small, and on it there hoppeth the last man who maketh everything small. His species is ineradicable like that of the ground-flea; the last man liveth longest.
.......
One no longer becometh poor or rich; both are too burdensome. Who still wanteth to rule? Who still wanteth to obey? Both are too burdensome.

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Eva there are at least 12 tweets where he was chastising Obama for even thinking about going into Syria and that it was not worth it to get involved in a sectarian war. Now Trump believes that we are all suffering from amnesia and do not remember what he said or tweeted. Of course we all do.

You are indeed correct - Obama put it before the Congress - the Republican Congress and they voted against it or some such thing.

It is like the poor Merrick Garland thing - they are blaming the Democrats for not wanting to vote for Gorsuch now and what is all of the fuss about. We were not obstructionists - we did not steal the seat. Well yes you did and what you did to Judge Garland was wrong. There never was even a vote regarding him and the Republicans would not even meet him in their chambers - a few did but that was it.

The question is will a military attack compromising Assad make it more difficult to curtail and defeat ISIS - a dragon with two heads?

I do not know what that man is thinking and I doubt whatever it is - - is well thought out.

Well aside from the Alawites and Assad's cronies and maybe Russia - who else will be upset? I doubt the remainder of Syria would unless we are talking about ISIS. The Free Rebels and Kurds not so much either. Jordan might be happy too. But I worry about the ISIS situation because this creates a vacuum like Sadaam Hussein in Iraq.

Whatever it is - it would be mighty reassuring if they could coerce Russia into dumping Assad or agreeing to place him on a short leash for the time being until a strong replacement could be found and they can deal with ISIS, the refugees, and a destroyed country.

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Michael - there were no weapons of mass destruction still around from the last time they destroyed them and yes Saddam had them at one time but he did not have them then and as you read you will discover a lot of things that Cheney and gang made up for their own purposes. But I digress.

You are correct - why is France selling these things to Iraq at the time.

Michael - you said the following - "I fear that the UN has gone the way of the League of Nations and without reform will fold up and wither on the vine. I hope that the UN can redefine itself and become more effective but unfortunately I think they are more often than not a waste of resources."

I agree that the UN should do something and more but right now Russia is vetoing any such measure. But at least there is a forum to talk about it and apply pressure - talk and communication are key rather than to have all of these countries saunter off to their own corners and disengage. It is what we have.

Michael some day if we do not address mental health issues, marginalization of minorities and others, inequities in living standards and health care and education, differences in how folks are treated within our criminal justice system as if blacks and minorities do not have the same rights and options, insensitivity to helping the plight of those less fortunate rather than the Republican attitude of "let them eat cake" or lock the door - there will be no place any of us will be able to hide from the upheaval.

Community service should be mandatory at the educational level or like adult jury duty. And bring back civics in our public schools and ethics into our school systems and colleges for starters. What happened to truth, facts, fair play, decency, humility, justice and dignified behavior in speech and actions.

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Larry wrote: "Michael wrote: "Discussion Topic Two:

1. What is the significance of the epigram?:

"I bring the men who desire death as ardently as you desire life." - Khalid ibn a-Walid (seventh-century Islamic..."

Larry what interesting takes on the epigram. I hope that folks jump in to ponder and discuss what you posted.

by Friedrich Nietzsche

The above is how we do citations here.

[Timmy]

I would argue that the problems we see in the Middle East are the results of the abandonment of the "idealistic" principles. In our world there has been and still is this idea of "realism" that controls the world of politics. Our leaders play politics like a chess game anticipating our opponents next move and everything is justifiable in order to reach their intended goal. The world has become very machiavellian and I believe that until we begin to change our approach we will see problems like Syria and ISIS again and again. It's obviously extremely hard to change the ideology of a person even harder a nation and ever greater the world, but until we have leaders that don't stray for their morals and do events that have direct results instead of indirect potential results we will not see the changes we desire. We will most likely see the end of the group known as 'ISIS' in the near future but I don't think we will see the end of groups like ISIS our leaders can't even follow their morals and create excuses for actions they do proclaiming it will POTENTIALLY result in the desired effect they are after. So, I wonder how you all feel about this do you believe that ISIS and the situation in the Middle East is an anomaly or that it is the growing trend due to the circumstances in the world today and I would like to know why you feel that way? Bentley I completely agree that society forgets the marginalized people but I would say that it happens because politicians have this machiavellian attitude where helping a marginalized person may not help them achieve their goals but cooperating with hostile powers is because it may POTENTIALLY result in greater gain for their country. That is just an example but I believe events like that are the reason why marginalized people are forgotten today.

[Skeetor]

I'm a little late in joining but -

Hello, just call me Skeetor. I think that this is a very important and timely book. I don’t believe enough people really understand the Islamic terrorist groups (not only this one) and what their ultimate goals are, let alone the difference between the Sunnis and the Shiites and how they relate to each other.

Prologue – I, too, think it was a terrible mistake for President Obama to ignore King Abdullah’s pleas for assistance. Overall, I think King Abdullah II is an intelligent man and that we should make use of his insight into the situation and give due consideration to any solutions he may suggest. I am hopeful that President Trump will heed his advice .

[Skeetor]

"I bring the men who desire death as ardently as you desire life." - Khalid ibn a-Walid (seventh-century Islamic warrior, companion of Muhammad)

I believe this would refer to the zeal for the devout to please Allah by dying for his cause, as a martyr. They would be assured magnificent rewards in heaven for this and therefore they are more than willing, almost eager to die in battle.

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Timmy wrote: "I would argue that the problems we see in the Middle East are the results of the abandonment of the "idealistic" principles. In our world there has been and still is this idea of "realism" that con..."

Timmy you raise some great questions about having moral leaders - do you think our current president is a moral man? If so why do you say that - if not why not. Does he speak the truth? I ask this question because honestly we are living in a world where most of these leaders are not moral or ethical men. If an ethical man comes against an immoral but strong leader - what does he do.

How does he get them to go along with the moral choice. I think that Obama was a fairly moral man with a good conscience and he and Putin did not get along well at all and there was not much cooperation. Putin is not a moral man and is a thug but strong and dictatorial and does bad things to his enemies (according to what the press is reporting) so how do you work with that.

I think we are seeing unfortunately a trend towards a more populist - in your face - type of leadership - nothing like we have seen here or let us say in the Philippines. Good deportment - kind and sincere and thoughtful words and deeds are not seen too much in our political arena today. Some folks are just not trained to even know they are reading fake news on illegitimate news links - that is a major problem because when these same people are told the truth - they do not believe the folks who are telling them the truth but the fake news. How do you make folks not center upon themselves and see that all of us are connected - rich and poor, black and white, the marginalized and the affluent and that there is a moral responsibility if you are blessed to help and tend to those less fortunate - the Bible professes that. But how many politicians have you heard lately that are that concerned about the marginalized and the uninsured and about the mental and physical well being of all of the American people or the Syrian refugees who have been turned away. There are a lot of folks who say if it is not happening here - I don't want to hear about it. Let somebody else take these people - we have to put America first. And of course we do want to protect Americans and all of our global citizens but how do you explain that to people who are dying or fleeing an untenable situation. I am not sure whether morality and ethics are really part of the politics - so I fear it might be a trend.

I fear that the marginalized situation needs to be addressed in this country and in others as well. The politicians are really not concerned about society as a whole - I do not know if you watched any of the Republican town halls but folks are angry and their politicians are basically saying tough - I will do what I want and here is my reason but I do not have to listen to you my constituency. Lindsay Graham's town hall comes to mind and I think he is one of the more moderate and similar to John McCain.

And this has a lot to do with ISIS (and the book we are reading) and their ability to brainwash - think of that poor man in Syria who is despondent and lost his twin babies, his wife, his brother, his parents, his cousins and he is alone - what is he going to think about the world who leaves him alone with this grief to handle while the world sits around and moans about it; but truly does "not much". And then you have Russia because they want to maintain their port in the Middle East backing a horrible individual who targets his own population with chemicals. Who does that? Not moral men.

So you see where we are - I guess we could use some inspiration.

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Skeetor wrote: "I'm a little late in joining but -

Hello, just call me Skeetor. I think that this is a very important and timely book. I don’t believe enough people really understand the Islamic terrorist groups ..."

Welcome Skeeter - we could not have chosen a more timely book for sure. I hear the words but I cannot understand not valuing your life as something precious and god given. That may be a difference between Christianity and Islam but I thought I heard somewhere that suicide was forbidden by Islam. I just don't understand how those who are the conservative mullahs can advocate for such people and still preach about heaven and god. Sort of a difficult situation I fear. But you make some excellent, excellent points

I agree with you about King Abdullah - he is making a supreme effort and I think he and President Obama got along well. Obama went to Congress to see if he could get the OK to do something in Syria and they turned him down so nothing was done. I do think that Obama could have done something more than he did though and I think he thinks so too. He was trying to keep us out of another draining conflict and that was a correct thought considering we had Afghanistan and Iraq still draining our economy - but ignoring help to these same people which Trump seems to be doing is not good either and he was one of the ones who tweeted how Obama better not engage us in Syria. So there you have it. Syria is a global situation - created by multiple people and entities and ISIS saw the vacuum and the opportunity.

[Michael]

Bentley: Again I want to reiterate that I agree with Bentley regarding the marginalized peoples of our society, indeed the world. This is a major recruiting ground for more bad things than just terrorism. I also agree with what you say regarding mandatory community service at some level. I believe that Canada and the United States would benefit from mandatory service. For those who do not wish to serve their 2 years in the military than let it be in some humanitarian capacity such as the Peace Corp. It has benefited other countries (and from what I see on the school bus that I drive, greatly needed). :-)

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Amen Michael - I could not agree more - I think the draft did many good things for young men and maybe it would help both our young men and young women today. And of course that kind of draft - I want to add does not need to be for military service but for mandatory community service but serve you will someone other than yourself.

[Michael]

Timmy wrote: "I would argue that the problems we see in the Middle East are the results of the abandonment of the "idealistic" principles. In our world there has been and still is this idea of "realism" that con..."

Timmy you make some great points. Your comment about marginalized peoples caused this thought for me. I do not believe the issue of marginalized people groups can be resolved by governments. The reason I believe this: Six months after the earthquake in Haiti I took a team to help build replacement houses. The aircraft we arrived on was full, every seat, with the exception of four Brazilian Army Officers flying into Haiti to check on their Peacekeepers. Everyone else was from some sort of religious or humanitarian organization going over to help. The other cool thing I saw was tarps for shelter side by side where one was stamped with the logo of a Buddist aid agency right next to one stamped with a Samaritan's Purse logo. It is in these situations when we come together to help and we actually share a common burden that creates a unique context for dialogue that I believe we will start to build the unity and stability that we need in this world.

[Michael]

Bentley wrote: "That may be a difference between Christianity and Islam but I thought I heard somewhere that suicide was forbidden by Islam."

I think you are right Bentley. It is forbidden but I believe there are one or two exceptions to this. I seem to remember Warrick addressing this at some point. That Zarqawi had found an Imam who issue a special fatwa(?) or decree regarding this. My book was from the library so I am waiting to get it back so I can search for things not in my notes.

[Timmy]

Great point Bentley and to answer your question simply I'm not sure if he is a moral man maybe he follows his morals? Although they aren't my morals I don't think I can say he is 100% not moral and same with Putin. There actions don't align with normal western ideas of morality and ethics but they may have their own moral code they are following. I do think that their moral code isn't rooted in logic and reason if they indeed as following a moral code. I believe once people realize that following morals based in reason and logic are in there best interest people will stop voting for these men but the the people who are holding the keys of enlightenment are unfortunately the men that lack those morals we need in our world. For example I believe everything is important in our country from building infrastructure to immigration reform to the military. The idea I believe people don't understand is priorities, I don't believe military spending is same priority level as education and trumps agenda and message is full of military spending but lacks talk of the importance of education. That's a case where Trump holds the keys to enlightening the population via education reform but would rather talk about military spending which I believe should be a bigger priority then military spending. If you reform education and teach students topics like the great conversation books, morals, ethics and general education topics, I believe all this military spending would be unnecessary because we would have a more productive, better educated citizenry that would inevitably result in a better government with better leaders who make better decisions that won't get us in these situations in the first place. I don't think if America alone adopted this policy the world would be saved but if some countries in Europe, maybe some in Asia and a couple others around the world adopted it I think this world would be a significantly different place. Now the question how do you do it? Hmm that's tough I think people need to understand that logic, reason, education, morality and ethics will only add to their life and it's in their best interest in to peruse them. Now how do you do that? Hmm I don't know seems like we need a Plato/Socrates type of person to enlighten us.

[Timmy]

You make a great point Michael. People are best when we are united but it seems like we only get united when a crisis is occurring. How do we unite people when the bomb isn't about to explode or when their wasn't just an earthquake?

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Just as an FYI:

Trump launches military strike against Syria
Barbara Starr-Profile-Image
By Barbara Starr, CNN Pentagon Correspondent
Updated 9:25 PM ET, Thu April 6, 2017

http://www.cnn.com/2017/04/06/politic...

Clinton Earlier - http://www.cnn.com/2017/04/06/politic...

Source: CNN - 9:25PM

More:



https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/...

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/06/wo...

Source: The Washington Post, The New York Times

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Michael wrote: "Bentley wrote: "That may be a difference between Christianity and Islam but I thought I heard somewhere that suicide was forbidden by Islam."

I think you are right Bentley. It is forbidden but I b..."

Please let us know - maybe it is something coming up but I thought I had already read it.

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Timmy wrote: "Great point Bentley and to answer your question simply I'm not sure if he is a moral man maybe he follows his morals? Although they aren't my morals I don't think I can say he is 100% not moral and..."

Timmy I will come back to your posts - but maybe we need to ask what is justice - Plato's Republic - is justice bombing Syria's airfields after Assad conducted a Sarin attack on his own defenseless people?

by Plato

[Timmy]

I would say Assad actions are not justifiable. Was our response justifiable? I'm not sure how I feel about it yet I think I have to think about it more. What is your reaction to it? Obviously a lot of the info hasn't been released yet with specifics and we don't know what President Trump will do in the upcoming says but right now what's your initial feeling about this attack?

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Yes, Timmy I know - a moral dilemma - well there were Russians on the base and Russia was told about it in advance - I am not sure what their reaction is but it is important. They are in deep with Assad. It appears that the Rebels (the area gassed) are a mixture of Free Rebels and according to Assad - Al Nusra - so the gassed people are some Syrian and a blend of the others but even so - they should not be bombed with sarin! And there is no proof that anybody but innocent Syrians were targeted.

Mr. Moallem asserted that Al Qaeda’s Syria affiliate, commonly called Al Nusra Front, and its main jihadist rival, the Islamic State, harbor illicit chemical weapons in Syria.

Asked whether Syria would present proof that it was not involved in the attack, Mr. Moallem responded, “How am I supposed to go to Khan Sheikhoun if it’s held by Al Nusra?”

Now remember even the Turkish government called what they were saying as preposterous - so they are not telling the truth.

a) He told the Russians ahead of time - good
b) There were Russians on the bombed bases - not good
c) It is measured and sends a message that Assad is formerly on notice - good
d) We do not know what Assad thinks - if that is even important
e) Most importantly, does this help us in the fight against ISIS and al Qaeda - Here I am not sure.

This is an article from the guardian - they went there and if everything that they have reported is true - bombing an airbase isn't enough - nothing is going to bring these folks back:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/201...

I think that what I am trying to convey is that Trump did what he could do and could get away with - bombing some planes, chemical warehouses and an airstrip. OK it did give a message but was that justice for the sarin gas victims - I do not think it was enough nor do I think it gave them justice. What concerns me is that by fighting Assad and the Russians - ISIS can sit back and wait and pick up the pieces and would be unscathed in this. While the principals fight it out.

I think that there has to be a coalition that removes Assad and puts the UN in charge etc. Then the coalition goes in and finishes off ISIS together. If those two things are done - then the sarin gas victims would have been responsible for the world to get out of their own way and do something. But nothing is going to bring those poor people and babies back.

[Skeetor]

I don't look at the bombing conducted as any attempt for justice for the victims or as an attempt to do any really serious damage to Assad's regime. I think it was meant to deter him from using any more chemical attacks. Whether it was the right thing to do is a tough question. No doubt, any American aggression, even as slight as this restricted attack on a single air base will be twisted by terrorists to an attack on Muslims.

I believe Russia has condemned the attack as an aggression on a sovereign country by the US but I don't think they will do anything other than halting the air safety agreement for US planes. Hopefully there will just be a lot of posturing. In that respect, I would say that not attacking the Russian bases was a good thing. I don't think the US and Russia need to duke it out in other people's countries as they have in the past.

Nikki Haley did make a plea at the UN for a response on Wednesday. I am not a fan of the UN, myself. I understand the optimistic approach of talking things out but they rarely seem to really get anything accomplished, and when they do finally come to a decision, it is usually much too late. More like too many chiefs each trying to run things their way.

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Skeetor - true if they or Russia would admit that they in fact used them.

To date - that has not happened either which is of course ludicrous based upon the facts presented so far. Additionally the Obama administration had an agreement signed which Russia endorsed destroying all of Assad's existing chemical weapons which are banned by International agreements.

Somehow he got more it appears. I am not sure that Assad actually cares and I wonder how much of a deterrent it really was. But we will see what the fall out is. I would have preferred a world military strike versus American going it alone even if it was measured as it was.

The air safety agreement is allegedly suspended meaning that it was not canceled but held in abeyance (lol). It could be posturing most likely - they were warned an hour before.

The UN has been disappointing but it is the only vehicle we have at the moment and at least it brings on the world center stage what is in violation - it shines a light. And the Security Council is a difficult place when there is absolute veto power.

The key point is how is all of this in fighting of folks on both sides of the argument playing into ISIS's hand. There was another car attack in Sweden. Sweden a country that has been most generous to refugees and this is how they are repaid. It is a shame for the true refugees.

[Mary]

My name is Mary and I currently live in South Carolina, USA. My interest in the book stems from wanting to boost my limited knowledge about the origins of ISIS and its current goals. I would like to have a better foundation from which to assess US and European foreign policy in the Middle East. The situation in the region is such a fast-moving, complex mess that it requires solid expertise to analyze it. Black Flags seems to fill that need.

As for the Prologue, it was a riveting read and made clear that there might not be any good guys in this story. US post-9/11 policy in the Middle East was, sadly, so ill-conceived. It fed the war industry for a while until the morass got to be so costly and hard to understand that ISIS stepped into the void. Their cruelty just stuns me.

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Mary welcome and you are right - this book begins the conversation and greatly assists. It also helps that it is an exceptional read.

Yes, that is what ISIS wants to do - you wonder if the internet went away and there was not 24x7 news coverage if these folks would not just shrivel up and disappear. The news media and the internet seem to feed this beast.

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Hello Guys - every Friday on Book of the Month Club reads - I remind the participants of what we will be covering the following week for a peek ahead:

Syllabus and Reading Schedule

WEEK TWO READING ASSIGNMENT - (86 through page 150) - 4/10/17 - 4/16/17

BOOK I: THE RISE OF ZARQAWI - CONTINUED

6. "This war is going to happen" 86
7. "Now his fame would extend throughout the world 95

BOOK II: IRAQ

8. "No longer a victory" 101
9. "So you guys think this is an emergency" 115
10. "Revolting is exactly what we want" 126
11. "It would surpass anything al-Qaeda did" 138

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

In terms of Syria and the chemical attack and Trump bombing the air field.

All of the allies confirm it was justified and a calibrated response. Syria (Assad) not the people, Russia, Iran see it as an act of violence and assisting the terrorists. China does not approve but does not want to light a world fuse but has frequently sided with Russia.

There are holes in the ground which appear to be where the chemicals were deposited/dropped from air strikes rather than the claim that they were targeting a facility where chemicals were made.

Turkey who took in many of the sick victims has run tests and it has been proven that sarin gas was definitely used and possibly also chlorine. That is what we know so far. ISIS is quiet aside from a truck attack in Sweden today.

[Savannah]

Michael wrote: "Bentley: Again I want to reiterate that I agree with Bentley regarding the marginalized peoples of our society, indeed the world. This is a major recruiting ground for more bad things than just ter..."

I believe Bill Clinton tried to start something similar to what you are discussing. Definitely, believe we should require some sort of service be military, humanitarian, etc. In return society should provide free college tuition. This would produce an educated, caring society.

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

That is a good idea too Savannah - sort of like the GI Bill but for community service or humanitarian work as well as military.

[Jan]

Hi all, my name is Jan. I am greatly interested in the cultural, economic, religious, political, and historical reasons for the rise of the Islamic State. No one book can attack this topic from all angles. Black Flags: The Rise of ISIS, from what I have read so far, tries to explain that rise in terms of politics - political leaders, political decisions, and various ways of exercising power. The first 5 chapters in Book 1 lay out the perfect example of the unintended and far reaching consequences of political decisions.

I have been following the discussion here with a great deal of interest. This is my first experience with a History Book Club Book-of-the-Month discussion. It is not at all what I expected. I was thinking that we would be talking about the merits/shortcomings of this book as history. Instead, a lot of the discussion here has to do with judging personalities, guessing the motives of the people in the book, and responding to their actions as though this were a novel. What a great reminder that all histories are, at bottom, stories, to which we respond in hugely different ways. Everyone's reactions to the book are fascinating, and thought-provoking. Thank you all for taking the time to share your perspectives!

Clearly, Bentley has done a jaw-dropping amount of hard work and research pulling together all the resources, posting chapter summaries, and posing discussion questions. Huge Kudos to Bentley. I am completely in awe and deeply grateful to be able to guzzle all I can from the supplemental videos and articles.

Full Disclosure to you all: I supported Trump. I suppose that makes me one of Bentley's "Trumpeters ... a lot of good people caught up in the propaganda of not taking the time to separate fact from fiction..." The reason I am including this quote is to point out that dividing issues into "fact" and "fiction" is overly simplistic. There are also assertions, assumptions, various types and qualities of evidence, arguments, and conclusions. What person A believes is a "fact," person B believes is an "assertion." For example, in comment 19, Bentley asks "How do these terrorist groups not represent Islam or the Muslim faith?" That question can only be asked if you have already decided that it is a "fact" that they do not represent Islam, when, in reality, that is an assertion that must be supported by evidence and arguments. Indeed, a strong argument can be made that they DO represent Islam and the Muslim faith. THEY THEMSELVES, claim to represent the "real" Islam. And they can quote chapter and verse of the basic texts of Islam (Koran, Hadith, Sura) to make their case.

Anyway, that is what I have to offer. I got a lot more out of the book that I would have without you all motivating me. Your comments and insights made me go back and re-read those first 5 chapters to discover how Warrick defines Zarqawi's motives, as well as what he writes about the motives and roles that the political leaders in the US and Jordan had that led to his rise. (Yikes that was a long sentence...)

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Welcome Jan - we are glad to have you with us. This book is a multi faceted one - it is history but it is also a book which deals with the present and the potential for future on-going developments.

Oddly enough it is extremely timely and every day has evoked real life and current events to discuss which have everything to do with this book and the history and story that it tells.

Someone said "we learn from history what we do not learn from history" - I believe it was Hegel and this history and current events saga proves that reflection. The personalities in this book are people and leaders we are quite familiar with in many instances so we have opinions and thoughts about all of them which are part of the discussion.

Please enjoy the supplemental material here and in the accompanying glossary.

About the Trumpeters - I guess it does (smile) but we will not hold that against you (lol). In return, please do not hold against us the fact that a lot of us didn't.

About the Muslim faith and discussions about beliefs cited in the book - none of us are mullahs or imams so we ask a lot of questions in terms of interpretation. However, we do cite Muslim leaders like the King of Jordan and other Muslim leaders who have denounced this or that and have stated their denouncements as facts backed up by the Koran and their knowledge of the Muslim faith. Additionally the event facts that they do cite are non controversial and are based upon solid facts and research by Muslims - not idle opinion. What ISIS quotes according to the majority of independent Muslims is a clear distortion and aberration of the interpretation of Islam. And the majority of Muslims appear to agree with that interpretation and want nothing to do with ISIS or their tactics which are horrific and a non Muslim interpretation. ISIS gives Islam a bad name. But it is also true that the Koran has passages which many people state proves that it is a violent religion (some people feel that way) - but if you read the Bible you find the very same kind of passages. But what many folks claim is that the other Christian faiths have moved past these barbaric interpretations and practices and left these archaic ideas and beliefs back at the Crusades or the Reformation and possibly the Islamic faith has not evolved to that point. Since I am not a student of this particular religious belief system I cannot say for sure who is correct in their interpretation but it is fun to discuss and share ideas and research.

"Everybody here is entitled to their own opinion but not their own facts" ..Daniel Moynihan

So here we sift through the fallacies and the fake news and faulty research and try to find where the preponderance of agreement and provable truth lies. There are many twists and turns in our discussions and everybody is entitled to their opinions or ideas - these are quite civil exchanges and idea discussions which we enjoy here. What this discussion is not is a glorification of ISIS - we do not condone anything they have done. It is quite horrific.

We have posted the assignment for next week and in our discussions we really do a deep dive of the subject matter which we find gives all of us more enjoyment and challenges our thinking and the processes we use to judge what we critically read. We have to judge where the author is coming from - what is his background and does he have a bias - do we believe what he has to say and his research. Many times what an author or historian does not include in his book is as important as what he does.

I welcome you to the discussion.

PS: Jan the discussion next week will be concerning the Week Two Assignment - here is what we posted for next week - just as an FYI -

Hello Guys - every Friday on Book of the Month Club reads - I remind the participants of what we will be covering the following week for a peek ahead:

Syllabus and Reading Schedule

WEEK TWO READING ASSIGNMENT - (86 through page 150) - 4/10/17 - 4/16/17

BOOK I: THE RISE OF ZARQAWI - CONTINUED

6. "This war is going to happen" 86
7. "Now his fame would extend throughout the world 95

BOOK II: IRAQ

8. "No longer a victory" 101
9. "So you guys think this is an emergency" 115
10. "Revolting is exactly what we want" 126
11. "It would surpass anything al-Qaeda did" 138

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

One thing that we might want to discuss is the propaganda that is being placed on the Internet by ISIS - according to Newsweek on March 29, 2017 - London Terror Attack Prompts Hundreds of New ISIS Videos on Youtube.

1. Does Youtube have a moral, ethical responsibility to not allow postings that are sick propaganda praising violence. Google has purchased Youtube in 2006 and they say that they have struggled to control the flow of content deemed extremist and racist by authorities and viewers. In addition to clips praising the attackers - ISIS and ISIS sympathizers have uploaded propaganda encouraging Westerners to stage additional attacks.

2. Do you think that Google ought to do more and quickly - should Google be able to write programs which globally eliminate these postings that promote violence or hate speech or racist views.

3. Do you think that all internet providers should be held responsible for postings that encourage violence or ISIS and terrorists.

4. What should governments and these internet companies be forced to do about this situation? Should guidelines be enforced.

5. Would prohibiting these kind of vile postings violate free speech even as hateful as they are. But aren't there rulings now that say that free speech does not apply to hate speech or speech used to incite violence?

6. Would shutting down these free propaganda avenues curb ISIS and the frequency of these lone wolf attacks?

7. Why are so many of these terrorists also from Uzbekistan? The Boston Massacre bombers were from there as well.

[Eva]

6. Would shutting down these free propaganda avenues curb ISIS and the frequency of these lone wolf attacks?

Funny, I thought something similar this morning... Up to now I don't think that the attack in Sweden was claimed by ISIS.
And here's the thing: it always takes ISIS a few days to make that claim, because I believe they are just as much following the news and new developments in such a case to make sure that the attacker can somehow be linked to them.
Yes, sometimes the attacker had been to one of the ISIS training camps (I think that's the case with the attacker in Westminster, but I'm not sure), but in other cases like the 17-year old Afghan who attacked people on a train with an axe near Nuremberg, the only link that police found was a hand-drawn map of ISIS in the teenager's room and soon after ISIS claimed he was one of their fighters.
So what, if police just would never confirm any links between an attacker and the extremist beliefs of ISIS? Just pronounce it as the deed of a mentally disturbed man?
Of course that would never happen and it'd be a willful mislead of the public, but I wonder if it would weaken ISIS position. Sure, they could still claim it as one of their attacks, but they actually haven't done that yet. For example, the attack in Munich in a shopping centre last year: a young German-Iranian shot 10 people and injured 36. I know, everybody was expecting that at one point police would confirm that he had shouted Allahu Akbar or ISIS would claim it as one of their attacks. But ISIS never did. Because no links were found and the other day police confirmed that the young man's motives had nothing to do with a political extremist belief.
So, what if any information that showed any of these lone wolf attacks were linked to ISIS, would no longer be released to the public? And ISIS couldn't claim them as one of their fighters anymore. Would it make those lone wolf attacks less frequent? I'm sure, ISIS would find another way to terrorize the rest of the world, but they'd have to fall back on people they actually know.

ISIS relies so much on pictures that go and spread their message: propaganda videos, selfies of ISIS fighters, videos of killing and so on. The Internet is their platform and yes, I think this should be stopped. A couple of years ago, some extremist preacher in the US announced that he'll burn a huge pile of Koran books in front of his church. This went around the world and was in the news for days. But what if nobody would have paid any attention to him? If this would have not become newsworthy? Then it would have been just a madman seeking attention and hardly anybody would have heard about it, except for some of his church members.
And his message would have been - well, there wouldn't have been a any message, because nobody would have heard about it.

One thought on morals and marginalized people: Yes, I think it's true that many young people these days are lonely and struggling with their identity. They're looking for guidance and sometimes this guidance comes from the wrong role models.
I watched a documentary the other day about Russian hooligans. In the last World Cup (soccer) there was a terrible attack from Russian hooligans on English fans with a form of violence unprecedented.
This documentary presented how these young Russian men, who take part in the Hooligan culture were actually proud of what had happened and actually meet on a regular basis to "train". Which just means that a lot of young men are trying to bash each other's head in.
But they all took this very seriously and when asked why, they often replied that the world should see that this is the new Russian man. They were concerned that too many people see Russian men just as funny drunks, when instead they should see that a Russian man is dangerous and needs to be taken seriously.
Which somehow seems to reflect their president?! There are quite a lot of videos how Boris Yeltzin is drunk at some event, whereas Putin likes to paint himself as the bare-chested Macho-man who probably is able to kill a bear with bare hands.
These hooligans obviously do not represent Russia or all Russian men, but I was surprised to see how much they were concerned with their national image and how much apparently Putin functioned as a role model for them.
Here's a link to the BBC documentary:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sBhSr...
I just thought that these young men, had they been born in a Middle East country, easily could have become part of ISIS, because they offer a guidance, a moral code (even if it is not a good one) and some young people seem to crave this more than anything.

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

That is interesting - the news outlets specifically the ones in Europe have better information that the ones in our country and Sweden has arrested some of these folks - there were more than one.

What the reports are saying is that they looked at their internet accounts and I guess there were ISIS related posting and views expressed. It was reported that these folks were ISIS sympathizers at the very least based upon their on line activity. I will have to read more but what was reported was that Google could not keep up with the youtube postings from ISIS.

I thought what was interesting was where these folks came from Uzbekistan - the same place as the Boston Massacre brothers.

Somehow there is an online link to these people and I think that Google should be doing more. I agree that the number of these attacks would become more infrequent without the news reporting and without this internet and youtube connection.

Regarding the Hooligans - there have always been gangs and I do not condone that either but the escalation and the kinds of violence are at a new high. You are right about the role models that they have but I think this ISIS situation is different.

I am not an authority of what these folks crave but I think that marginalized folks who have been forgotten and have problems assimilating or are made to feel that they don't belong are ripe for this sort of indoctrination.

And the internet - instead of being a force of good, research, intellectual sharing - has been turned into an evil propaganda tool by some of these terrorist organizations. A lot cannot be done but placing violent and racist youtube videos inciting folks to do violence locally should not be one of those situations that Google which owns Youtube should not be able to handle. It is a sad situation either way.

[Timmy]

About YouTube or other internet sites blocking or taking done Isis propaganda: I'm sure we all have heard this agreement but I believe it is timeless, the way to stop 'bad' speech is 'more' good speech. I believe it's dangerous to censor the Internet in anyway because you are giving the people who control it the authority to chose what's right and wrong what people should see and what they shouldn't see. The problem isn't the propaganda it's that Isis is the best option for these people who are marginalized and maybe if we show these people who are looking for a purpose a better route then they wouldn't be joining these radical groups. I think the only way to stop people from joining ISIS is to defeat the propaganda and call it out on its lies and shortcomings. Show people that ISIS isn't there only option and that its shouldn't be an option. More 'good' speech not less 'bad' speech.