World, Writing, Wealth discussion
World & Current Events
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When opposition death and injury rate seems a little higher than usual
Unclear what happened. Our local radio news has reported an allegation it was shot down.
Whatever 'evidence' comes to light that it wasn't the Kremlin, however conclusive the "proof', coinciidences like this don't happen. Looks like question marks over Putin's authority and grip on power were misplaced.
At least Prig didn't fall out of a window onto a stray passing bullet. That would've just been careless.
At least Prig didn't fall out of a window onto a stray passing bullet. That would've just been careless.
He was careless Beau. You should never fly in a small plane that could be confused with a Ukrainian drone :-)
That he wasn't hanged as a traitor says much about how much power Putin and the Kremlin actually wield.
The more interesting twist would be if actual prig were now under some witness protection program somewhere in Leicester or Oklahoma under the alias of leon trotsky or similar
For those who believe that "putler cares for people", why kill an innocent flight attendant like Kristina Raspopova when prig and other musicians were easily accessible at all times https://www.theguardian.com/world/liv... . prig's and utkin's heads are a fitting present for Ukrainian Independence Day.
Following my post 102, I note that while quite a number of people have claimed to see the plane falling out of the sky, and there are numerous photos, nobody claims to have seen a missile (as opposed to alleging that happened.) Has anyone seen any evidence it was a missile?The alternative would be a bomb in the tail region. Given the plane fell straight down, with no control of pitch or spin, that would seem more possible. It also opens up the list of suspects. Nobody could fire a missile without Putin' approval, but a bomb is a different matter.
I saw some footage showing damage to the plane and it could only have happened with a missile according the the experts. I wonder there was no footage because until the plane was going down it was just a plane.
Which experts? If it were a missile, the casing should be around there somewhere. And as for the damage, if an aircraft dives nose-first into the ground, it is not going to hold together.I would doubt there would be footage of a missile going up because it would hit a low-flying plane before anyone could get a camera ready, but I would have expected someone to report having seen it, unless, I suppose, they are too scared to.
Nik wrote: "Boris kens the score and so do many others: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo..."Now? Apparently, Mr. Johnson wasn't reading the papers while Ms. May was Prime Minister.
Novichok victim Dawn Sturgess' daughter challenges coroner
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-w...
Nik wrote: "Boris kens the score and so do many others: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo..."So Boris is looking for publicity. I doubt he has any specific evidence that everyone else hasn't got, but railing against Putin appears to get more coverage than explaining why his performance was less than exciting.
I don’t think anyone doubts putler, incl yourself
Interestingly, in our Sunday paper this morning there was an item that included a quote from US Intelligence (via the London Times) that "it was probably an explosion from within the aircraft". US intelligence would presumably know if it had been a missile because their satellites would detect a missile launch. As an aside, I feel somewhat pleased to get support from US intelligence for my conclusion in post 108.In logic, that should open up the list of suspects. And, to goad Nik maybe, why could it not have been of Ukrainian origin?
Ian wrote: "Interestingly, in our Sunday paper this morning there was an item that included a quote from US Intelligence (via the London Times) that "it was probably an explosion from within the aircraft". US ..."It may be exactly what you are saying, that it was an internal explosion and coincidences do happen. Yet, it may be American disinformation to let Putin think he got away with if for their reasons.
Except,
All they are saying is that is was not a missile, but an internal explosion, which does lend to the act of sabotage.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x2BAY...
On my previous post of a missile, I had read it as a missile, but what was actually meant was shrapnel holes, which led to the connection to a missile. The idea was tamped down quickly. It was photos of shrapnel of the one wing, but not the tail stabilizer and rear wings which would have been significantly damaged due to the shrapnel.
I think an internal explosion is the most likely explanation given what we know, and it would not be a coincidence. Someone put an explosive there.I am also inclined to think it was not Putin. If Putin wanted him dead there are many other options, and why take out the innocents? The counter would be that there were enough on board who he wanted to get rid of, the others were clean out of luck.
As for the Ukrainians planting a bomb, they have planted bombs in Moscow before and they have motive. There was always the chance that if Putin was blamed for it, Russia might tear itself apart. That might be Ukraine's best chance of winning this war.
Apart from you, Ian, I guess few doubt it was under putler's orders. Hopefully, one day he'd be properly interrogated about all the atrocities he's responsible for. Would run a poll, if people are interested...
Ian wrote: "I think an internal explosion is the most likely explanation given what we know, and it would not be a coincidence. Someone put an explosive there.I am also inclined to think it was not Putin. If..."
You are assuming Putin cares one whit for anyone. I see this as a message to others that would stand against him. As for the Ukrainians, I cannot discount them, but that would be some trick.
I will use Occam's Razor for this one. if not by order of Putin, then at least without his opposition. I can think of a few that wanted Progozhin dead.
I think Putin is the main suspect, but from a strategic point of view, Ukraine has good reason. If Prigozhyn had support in Russia, and if there were reasonable anti-Putin forces, this could be the one way to make Russia tear itself apart, and I suspect that is the ONLY realistic way Ukraine wins.
I'd participate in a poll, Nik.I don't get it, Ian. You live in a free country, yet find excuses for the atrocities committed by Putin and Xi. Do you really think Putin isn't a cold-blooded murderer, that Xi cares about all citizens equally? Would you want to live in Russia or China, rather than New Zealand?
Scout, you miss the point. My argument is to base your decision on evidence. It may well be that Putin ordered that, but it is equally possible others did, to embarrass Putin.As an aside, how many people do you think Putin has murdered? There tends to be exaggeration. As an example, Caligulae is considered to be a mad murderer. He only ordered the deaths of 13 people, most of whom were involved in three attempts to murder him
Scout wrote: "...I'd participate in a poll, Nik...."Your wish is my command :)
Madame, Messieurs,Maybe somewhat belatedly, the poll is up and will be open for a week until 16/09/23 or 09/16/23:
https://www.goodreads.com/poll/list/1...
Made it anonymous, the results to be shown after the end and allowing write-in answers.
Feel free to participate!
I've sent 200 poll invitations to random group members as an experiment
Dang! I didn't see this until after the deadline.
Ian, you didn't answer my question: Would you want to live in Russia or China, rather than New Zealand? Why or why not?
Of course I want to live here. This is where my culture is, where my relatives are, where the places that I enjoy holidays are.The question is, where would most Russians or Chinese prefer to live?
New Zealand? U.S.? Anywhere that people have freedom? What do you think? Answer your own question.
OK, my daughter-in law is Chinese. Currently her mother and an aunt are here to help Tian with her first daughter. Her mother is very keen to return to China; the only thing she is not so keen on is having to say goodbye to little Isabel. She is happy to be going back to China.
Ian wrote: "OK, my daughter-in law is Chinese. Currently her mother and an aunt are here to help Tian with her first daughter. Her mother is very keen to return to China; the only thing she is not so keen on i..."Congrats on the grand baby. May you live long to enjoy her wedding.
Papaphilly wrote: "Ian wrote: "OK, my daughter-in law is Chinese. Currently her mother and an aunt are here to help Tian with her first daughter. Her mother is very keen to return to China; the only thing she is not ..."Thanks. It would be nice, but at my age, at best something to dream about. It is an odd thing about my family the spacing of generations. I have a grandfather (perforce, dead) who was born, from memory, around 1854.
As a former U.S. Marine and Vietnam combat veteran, I tend to evaluate any statistics pertaining to causualties, victories, and/or defeats with some skepticism, regardless of which side is reporting.I have taught my children that, based upon my personal experience, when the last shot is fired, peace treaties are signed, and a war is declared officially over, there are no winners and there are no losers. There are only survivors.
Jim wrote: "As a former U.S. Marine and Vietnam combat veteran, I tend to evaluate any statistics pertaining to causualties, victories, and/or defeats with some skepticism, regardless of which side is reportin..."Hear hear.
Unlike Ian's daughter -in -law's mother, apparently millions of Chinese prefer US to their homeland: https://www.migrationpolicy.org/artic...
Jim wrote: "As a former U.S. Marine and Vietnam combat veteran, I tend to evaluate any statistics pertaining to causualties, victories, and/or defeats with some skepticism, regardless of which side is reportin..."My grandfather was born in 1892. We have some odd generational spaces also.
Nik wrote: "Unlike Ian's daughter -in -law's mother, apparently millions of Chinese prefer US to their homeland: https://www.migrationpolicy.org/artic..."You can say that about any demographic in America that are generation zero (off the boat). Plenty of those that are this demographic that I personally know yearn for the homeland, but will not go back for a variety of reasons. Some just plain miss family and familiar surroundings. Others have very hard time adapting to the new surrounding mores. Some are very happy.
Ian, you used one example to answer your own question: "The question is, where would most Russians or Chinese prefer to live?"Setting aside the idea that most people want to stay where they have family, do you believe that most Russian and Chinese citizens would, if given a choice, prefer to live in a country where their individual freedoms are curtailed? Would you want to live in such a country? You seem to support these countries in your arguments here without giving any thought to the basic human need to be free to determine your own destiny without state control. Can you explain?
Scout wrote: "Ian, you used one example to answer your own question: "The question is, where would most Russians or Chinese prefer to live?"Setting aside the idea that most people want to stay where they have f..."
Scout, you asked me to answer the question. I only try to answer with facts, and the short answer is I have no idea wheere "Most Russians and Chinese prefer to live" because i have no information about most Russians and Chinese. I suspect those that go to the US go for far higher pay, but I don't know. They are not average Russians and Chinese because the average, by definition, are at home.
What I do know is that I spoke to a number of Intourist girls when I was in Brezhnev's Russia, and they preferred the advantages of where they were: free education, free medical, and the ability to walk home any time of the night free from the fear of mugging. They asserted that crime was very rare. Their attitude was that while they would like to travel, they were happy enough where they were.
Freedom is an interesting thing. Freedom from fear is also a useful freedom. How many in the US have guns because they fear home invasion? How real that fear is is irrelevant because if you have fear you are not free.
You're the one who asked that question, not me. I'm struggling with the fact that you enjoy the freedoms afforded you in New Zealand, yet you defend countries that curtail the very freedoms you enjoy. That's a contradiction I don't understand. And nothing you've said helps me understand. I really want to get it, so could you try to explain it again?
The question I asked was where would Russians and Chinese prefer to live? Somehow you switched this to why I shouldn't like living where I am. If you focus on me, there is nothing I can add to what I have already said about my limited knowledge of Chinese and Russians, other than to say from what I gather, they are happy enough.
Based upon my personal experience and close association with eight former Chinese citizens (5 men & 3 women) and 2 former Russian citizens (2 women) who eventually became U.S. citizens, I offer the following statements.Citizens of totaliterian countries learn early in life to tread lightly when asked by anyone if they are happy living in their homeland. All too often they have witnessed situations in which government officials became aware that certain people stated something other than positive comments about their country and those people ended up in an Indoctrination Camp or just disappearing.
With very few exceptions, when asked while visiting a democratic nation, visitors from a toltaliterian country will spout the official national line: "I love my homeland. I can not think of anywhere else I would prefer to live."
The question I asked and you ignored, Ian, was, " I'm struggling with the fact that you enjoy the freedoms afforded you in New Zealand, yet you defend countries that curtail the very freedoms you enjoy. That's a contradiction I don't understand. And nothing you've said helps me understand. I really want to get it, so could you try to explain it again?" It's okay if you don't want to answer the question.
There is no contradiction. I am defending the rights of people in whatever country they live in to choose their own way of life and not be told what to do, and usually be exploited, by foreigners.
Except they were never given that choice. But let's assume they are perfectly happy, so we won't be unhappy with compassion
Throughout all this there has been the assumption that we live in superior places. There is a case the US thinks it is exceptional. There is no doubt that if you are talented and you want a high level of income and you want to be able to buy more stuff, the US is the place to go to, and a lot do.Yet, throughout various posts here, who is really happy with Joe Biden? Who is really happy with the US health system, especially if you are at the bottom of the heap? I could have got a much higher income in the US had I gone there, and I probably could have, but I prefer the life I have had here. Probably young people in Russia and Ukraine are not very happy right now with the war on, but they may still prefer to live there. People have quite different views on what they prefer.
Scout asked about freedom. So, I am free to vote in two weeks. What is that worth, given the candidates are currently spouting different policies that I despise? Yes, I am free to travel. My Chinese relations are free to travel, and they do. I am free to say whatever I want, up to a point, but nobody listens so what sort of freedom is that? Maybe it is worth giving up a bit of that for free medical care and free education. You may not think so, but why shouldn't they?
Very good post, Ian. We have the freedom - just - to say what we want and be ignored, plus the freedom to elect one of two 'brands' of what is, in essence, the same thing.
I can't believe I have to say this, but there's a big difference between living in the States, NZ, Britain and living in Communist China or Russia. Isn't there? The most obvious and important one being freedom of speech. The second would be living under totalitarian governments that curtail personal freedom. So I guess my question to Ian and Beau and whoever defends those countries' actions would be: how can you defend countries who deny freedom of speech and choice to their citizens?
And you know that Russians and Chinese do not speak freely amongst themselves. If you go to Quora look up the posts by Misha Firer. How could he do those posts if the government was so despotic as you seem to say. Again, what freedom do these governments curtail? Let's look at the freedom to be treated reasonably. In my first visit to LA, the airline had lost my luggage so I went to JC Penney to get some cheap clothes. Shopping was interrupted by one of the LAPD dragging some rather short woman out of the store by grabbing a fistful of hair. She was yelling in obvious pain.
A couple of days later, I went for a walk and I climbed some steps off a footpath that went from a footpath that came near a freeway. For some reason I turned around, and there was a motorbike cop crouched behind his bike aiming a pistol at my back. I was called down, and told I had passed a "No Walking Past this Point" sign. That was apparently worth being shot in the back. He took me to the sign and showed me, after he had pulled away all the shrubbery that was growing up in front of it.
Apart from the rather depressing sights in Skid Row and firm advice to stay out of areas like Watts, and the real problems of moving around on clogged freeways, tell me why LA would have been better for me then than returning to NZ?
Is the freedom to moan about Biden better than the freedom to avoid being shot by errant police? And don't try to tell me US police do not shoot people at regular intervals.
Scout, I believe liberal democracy is the best form of government but it's not the only form. People from nations with no real history of liberty or democracy may well be very happy without it. After all, you don't miss what you've never had.
Also, considering the proven nonsense that our politicians and media constantly feed us, I'm sceptical about completely buying into their descriptions of other countries, especiallythe ones I've never visited.
Not saying I support those totalitarian regimes - far from it, purely that I take what's said about them with a pinch of salt.
Also, considering the proven nonsense that our politicians and media constantly feed us, I'm sceptical about completely buying into their descriptions of other countries, especiallythe ones I've never visited.
Not saying I support those totalitarian regimes - far from it, purely that I take what's said about them with a pinch of salt.
Who could ever expect it?