Political Correctness, Bigotry, and Hypocrisy In Current SciFi/Fantasy Circles

[Judy]

You will see me arguing for more varied people and experiences and perspectives. Those things are not the same thing.

Becky, I think that's exactly the point that I'm trying to make. I can't possibly know what it feels like to walk in the shoes of someone from an entirely different socioeconomic/racial/cultural status than me, because I haven't lived that. Oh, I can try. But there's going to be some of my own background mixed in there, regardless. That's exactly why SFF should not be relegated solely to the old white guys. It started there, and that's fine. But I want to see more varied authors and perspectives.

(And of course I knew in Japan that I was surrounded by Japanese, lol. But there's a difference between just passively knowing and actually stopping to contemplate how it makes you feel. I still don't really understand Japanese TV. They could explain it to me all they like, but I still may not get it. Culture is real, and we are all bound by our own cultures, as much as we may try to be blind to it.)

[Becky]

Christopher wrote: "Does the story (or even character) really get a boost by having the protagonist be an intergalactic-Navajo? No."

This seems to be assuming that the main character that did fit the story is just switched out for an 'intergalactic-Navajo' or whatever. Do I think that would benefit the story? No. Not integrating your characters and world and story would make for a bad book no matter what kind of character it was.

What I would actually want to see is a story in which the culture and heritage of the character DOES matter. In my opinion, that idea and SFF are not mutually exclusive.

If old white guys can't write it, then someone else needs to... but old white guys' writing is entrenched in the market, making it a risk for publishers to chance it on those they might not see selling as widely.

[Becky]

Kenneth wrote: "I'd say those things are out there. So go read them?"

I'd love to hear your recommendations.

[Ken]

Well Becky, I don't know you or your perspective, so it would be hard to recommend a different one that fits your expectations.

For me, the already mentioned Rachel Swirsky was an interesting recent read for me.

[Becky]

I must have missed which book that was...? I've read one story by Rachel Swirsky and I wasn't terribly impressed by it, but I've got an open mind. You can throw out any suggestions you like - I'm game.

[Ken]

It was "How The World Became Quiet." The short story collection was very 'female', for lack of a better way of describing it. I think it was intentionally so. I found that perspective intriguing since it is not something I am used to.

[Becky]

Cool, I'm adding it to my list. And I've actually just realized that I'd confused Swirsky with another author, Meghan McCarron. (I'd downloaded short stories by both of them at the same time on Tor.com's recommendation - hence my confusion.)

I actually really enjoyed Swirsky's story - Portrait of Lisane de Patagnia. That one has two interesting female characters as well, if anyone is interested.

[Outis]

Christopher wrote: "And given the fantastical nature of SFF worlds, having characters TOO specifically linked to a specific real-world ethnic/religious/gender cohort is just posturing and pseudo-intellectual onanism."
You mean, like Dune?

Frank Herbert has done far worse in this respect than the authors who get accused of destroying SF.
But Herbert is not perceived as threatening by a certain demographic. I can't honestly say that I wonder why...

[Ken]

My problem with Dune is that it all somehow went according to a cult's plan over thousands of years. Really?

Great concept but that part is hard to overlook.

[MrsJoseph *grouchy*]

Michel wrote: "I am finding rather disturbing the way this tread has turned into a clash of opinions, with some pushing rather agressively their point of view. To expect a certain ratio of main characters to be ..."

I haven't called anyone an "old white fossil" nor would I do so.

I certainly wouldn't wish anyone to feel like I'm requesting "Jews in Space."


Please point out to me where I've called anyone racist or sexist.

[Christopher]

Becky wrote: What I would actually want to see is a story in which the culture and heritage of the character DOES matter. In my opinion, that idea and SFF are not mutually exclusive.

I think that's what we all want to see. Generally we call it "world-building." :-D

[Outis]

Kenneth wrote: "My problem with Dune is that it all somehow went according to a cult's plan over thousands of years. Really?"

I think Frank Herbert adressed that reading rather explicitely in an appendix.
But considering what's actually driving events in the story, I don't think I would have gotten that impression from the book even without the appendix.

[Becky]

Christopher wrote: "Becky wrote: What I would actually want to see is a story in which the culture and heritage of the character DOES matter. In my opinion, that idea and SFF are not mutually exclusive.

I think that's what we all want to see. Generally we call it "world-building." :-D"

Yep, and I just want it to be more diverse. :D

[Christopher]

Outis wrote: Frank Herbert has done far worse in this respect than the authors who get accused of destroying SF. But Herbert is not perceived as threatening by a certain demographic. I can't honestly say that I wonder why...

I see your point, the Mau'dib cult and all the various jihads were a BIT overwrought but as it was confined to a single series and written in a time when such references wouldn't have been QUITE as obvious as they would be today, i'm more inclined to "forgive" Herbert.

Except for Chapterhouse. Eff Chapterhouse.

(as an aside, in reading Edding's Malloreon recently, I kept getting taken out of the story because he had a kingdom called "Gandahar." Having recently returned from Kandahar, it was distracting. Which is akin to the point I'm driving at--such stunts (not that Eddings was) only detract from the work)

[Christopher]

Becky wrote: "Yep, and I just want it to be more diverse. :D

As do I. I just don't want it to look too much like places/people I already know.

[Outis]

That's what we all want.

The problem is that some people do not object to stuff like the BSG reboot which is full of stuff that's strongly reminiscent of a certain culture while they do object to stuff written by the likes of Jemisin (the one who came up with "dehistoricize").
It's as if some people only noticed similarities with our world when these similarities happen to be things one ought to be blind to or about which one shouldn't ask or tell...
Do check out what the authors attacked in the topic's bizarre essay actually write and see if it's about quotas (???) or if it looks too much like anything you know. Trigger warning: Gujaareh sounds a bit like Gujarat.

[[deleted user]]

MrsJoseph wrote: "It must be nice to argue from a place of privilege.
... willful blindness is willful... I am...disappointed. Like, so disappointed that I can't even get angry. Of course, it also makes me doubt either your sincerity or your intelligence but... "

I am sorry if you don't seem to be aware of it, but the tone of your replies would sound insulting, condescending and disrespectful to most people. Please try to keep the conversation civil.

[MrsJoseph *grouchy*]

Michel wrote: "I am sorry if you don't seem to be aware of it, but the tone of your replies would sound insulting, condescending and disrespectful to most people. Please try to keep the conversation civil.
"

After being told that wanting diversity in SFF is the equivalent to a slapstick comedy routine, you say I am insulting? Pfffft. I meant every word I said.

[[deleted user]]

MrsJoseph wrote: "After being told that wanting diversity in SFF is the equivalent to a slapstick comedy routine, you say I am insulting? Pfffft. I meant every word I said. ..."

What you were told by many is that diversity should not be forced into SFF novels simply for the sake of diversity. Period! Good novels should be interesting because the readers can identify with the values of the main characters, without consideration of race or sex. I personaly don't care if the hero/heroine is African, Caucasian or Asian, male or female. Just give me a hero/heroine I can root for. If you still insist on wanting main characters of a specific gender and race, then I am sure that you can find corresponding books in circulation somewhere on the Internet.

[Jim]

Susie wrote: "Gotta say that I don't continue with fiction that lacks a character I can identify with. But that doesn't mean that character has to be like me, a white Texas girl in her twenties. I have identified with Eowyn in TLOTR, Menolly in Dragonsinger, Flashman in those novels, Sir James the Dragon Knight, Mike Stearns in the Ring of Fire books, Jack Aubrey in Patrick O'Brian's novels, Juan Rico in Starship Troopers, Hornblower, Ged in a Wizard of Earthsea, and Alan Quartermain. What matters is that they are likable and fun. ..."

And that's the whole point about great writing, it lifts you out of your life and drops you into somebody else's. You are both absolutely right and totally blessed :-)

[Alicja]

Christopher wrote: "Does the story (or even character) really get a boost by having the protagonist be an intergalactic-Navajo? No."

Then what's the difference if he is an intergalactic Navajo or intergalactic Caucasian? Why is white the default?

[Becky]

Susie wrote: "Gotta say that I don't continue with fiction that lacks a character I can identify with. But that doesn't mean that character has to be like me, a white Texas girl in her twenties. [...] What matters is that they are likable and fun."

I don't even need that. I don't have to like a character to identify with them - I just need to understand them. If an author fails at making their character understandable (even if I disagree with every action and thought), then they've failed.

I can read books about loathsome characters and identify with them if the author does a good job of bringing that character to life enough to seem real and understandable. That doesn't mean I LIKE the character, or agree with them, but I recognize that this is a book character, and I can live vicariously through their experiences and viewpoints.

[colleen the convivial curmudgeon]

Michel wrote: "What you were told by many is that diversity should not be forced into SFF novels simply for the sake of diversity."

Which is a straw man argument, because that's not what anyone is saying. Period.


"I personaly don't care if the hero/heroine is African, Caucasian or Asian, male or female. Just give me a hero/heroine I can root for."

As Alicja says - if it doesn't matter, then why does the default have to be white? Why is it bad for people to wish for more diversity?

Again, wanting more diversity is not the same as saying it should be shoe-horned in for the sake of it. No one is saying that. That would just lead to tokenism and stereotypes, and no one wants that.

But, with sci-fi specifically, we're talking about a genre which is often used to tackle social issues, using "aliens" to represent issues of sexism and racism and various other issues...

And yet we're actually going to say that this genre shouldn't hold up a mirror to itself, and to its readers, and see how lacking in actual diversity it often is?

Talk about hypocrisy in current SFF circles.

[Ken]

Actually, Colleen, while I can't speak for the others, It IS what I am saying. Injecting diversity for diversity's sake is not going to result in good writing. But please, let's have more diversity. In good stories. Seek them out, they exist. White is only the "default" so long as people like those in this thread reinforce that concept.

It is NOT BAD to wish for more diversity. We are arguing for good writing, and suggesting that diversity in writing already exists for those with eyes to see it. Instead of demanding that mainstream writers inject diversity artificially in order to equalize a perceived injustice, why not promote authors who represent that diversity instead? Or are we limited to the old white guys?

I think we are all talking past each other. I see nothing wrong with Michel's comments.

The voracity of opinions has caused me to bow out of that YA thread. It seems that similar things are happening here. It's trench warfare. We're creating a wasteland. It is not productive.

[Becky]

Kenneth wrote: "Actually, Colleen, while I can't speak for the others, It IS what I am saying. Injecting diversity for diversity's sake is not going to result in good writing."

Not sure what you're disagreeing with. Colleen is saying that nobody is saying to just inject diverse characters into a story for diversity's sake. I think everyone recognizes that that would be creating token characters and would benefit nobody.

We want it to be normalized that diverse characters exist and can be interesting and identifiable heroes, too.

[Chris]

Becky wrote: "We want it to be normalized that diverse characters exist and can be interesting and identifiable heroes, too...."

That's not too much to ask for. And in today's environment, I'm surprised there isn't more of it. Authors should capitalize on this demand while it's out there.

(Demand as in supply & demand, not demand as in IWANTITNOW!)

[Becky]

I would also add that the issue is more than just "authors need to write diverse characters". If readers aren't buying them, then authors who do write about diversity are at a disadvantage because publishers won't take a risk on their books. There are self-publishing options, but those carry their own stigma (and, often, for good reason).

It's a complex issue that needs change from all sides. Discussing it in groups like this is part of that.

[Ken]

Yeah, Becky. I don't think we're disagreeing. Just misunderstanding each other.

[Amy]

If you believe in a better world, if you believe in all the magical things there could possibly be, if you believe in the things Ray Bradbury always said and wrote and lived, then please consider that all of these issues result from the underlying problems in the publishing industry in the West - of which SF/F adult niche genre publishing is only one part. It is a segment of the industry which certainly suffers a great deal from the poor business practices present in trade publishing. I believe all of these issues and arguments mentioned here are merely vocal reactions in public because the SF/F readership community is nothing if not vocal.

http://www.asterling.com/2014/03/tell...

Of course my buddy there didn't mention this; he's probably not even aware I exist, and probably would dismiss anything I might write out of hand as I'm not a vocal gender or race warrior and my former agent is George R.R. Martin's agent and no longer mine.

I have been writing about nothing but the issues related to writing and publishing genuine work ... really I can go back to 2006 or even earlier. I have .10 of the bandwidth of a tremendous number of individuals with ... well, let's say a little less information, capacity for analysis and perspective.

There is little to no point in "complaining." For literature and writing to be vibrant it must be viewed as such by those who are engaged in professionally producing it and bringing it to readers. There must be a vibrant, active, involved connection to the reader. The best writers never err in writing for their readers. They are acutely aware of who those readers are and are engaged in an active dialog with them.

GOOD LORD that essay is so long! My God how many words - it could be a whole book!

From the writer's perspective, this is one solution:
http://www.asterling.com/2014/05/if-i...

From the industry perspective, responding to readers as customers is one solution:
http://www.asterling.com/2014/05/in-t...

[Amy]

And yes, I'm doing something about it. We are doing something about it.

http://www.chameleonmedia.co/

I've already participated with 40 others doing something about it. Book View Cafe is now entering its 6th successful year.

http://www.bookviewcafe.com/

Each of these is far, far more important than that enormous collection of words, than the tens of thousands of tweets taking up valuable writing and reading time. Near-100% of the work the author both criticizes and praises that was written after - gee whiz, I'm going to say 1985 or so - was written to the order of something little-related to readers. And that is the problem. That is the disconnect, that is the dissatisfaction all the way around. Everyone's familiar with George Martin's books and the TV show. He was tired of writing and selling lower-performing SF books, he had a film/TV background, and this author of great competence created a fantasy world and series in response to the kind of numbers they were doing with others ... others like Tracy Hickman and Margaret Weis, etc. George has ample skill; the results are as they have been.

[colleen the convivial curmudgeon]

Kenneth wrote: "Actually, Colleen, while I can't speak for the others, It IS what I am saying. Injecting diversity for diversity's sake is not going to result in good writing. "

I know Becky already addressed this, but I just wanted to emphasize that what I mean is that no one is asking anyone to "[Inject] diversity for diversity's sake" - and that "attacking a distorted version of a position simply does not constitute an attack on the position itself".

[Micah]

MrsJoseph wrote: Micah wrote: "That's beside the point really..."
"So, while you can not agree with me, it is insulting to say that my viewpoint "is besides the point." You are dismissing ME and everyone else who does not share your privilege..."

First of all, that comment you quote was a response to Judy, not you. She was asking about finding yourself in a real world situation where you're the outsider. That had nothing to do with this discussion. That was about a real world experience, not what was in a fictional book. My question to her was did finding herself in the minority suddenly make her want to read literature that reflected her own identity. You've conflated that comment to include your desire to see more people like you in books.

Secondly, you completely ignore the rest of what I wrote and especially where I said that identity literature is needed, and that it best comes out of whatever identity group we're talking about.

Call me privileged all you want but I fail to see where people are going to find themselves in my own writing when a lot of my work takes place in posthuman worlds where you can choose to be of whatever body shape, size, sex or whatever you want. Of the two books I've published, one has a lesbian protagonist (who sometimes thinks she's really male...it's complicated) and many homosexual characters. In the other work my protagonists are described as having smoky copper color skin and are asexual clones. When you start dealing with minds that can be transferred from body to machine to computer to synthetic body, or be shaped to fit into any alien environment the whole ethnicity thing kind of melts away. You start dealing more with "what does it mean to be human" questions.

So let me state this emphatically and clearly: Would it be nice to see more minority characters? Yes. Sure. Absolutely. I have no problems with that.

But in a lot of SFF world set ups that's not going to really satisfy the need for identity literature except in a very superficial way. Real identity literature deals with identity as its core topic. That can be don in SFF. But for it to really be done correctly, it needs to come out of those identity groups. If it's written well, even pure white privileged guys like me can get something out of it even though we won't find ourselves in it...or would we?

[Ken]

Now that's an interesting and productive response, Amy!

[Becky]

Micah wrote: "Call me privileged all you want but I fail to see where people are going to find themselves in my own writing when a lot of my work takes place in posthuman worlds where you can choose to be of whatever body shape, size, sex or whatever you want."

I don't know anything about your writing other than literally what you've described here... but I would disagree that people aren't going to find themselves in something like that. Just from your description, I see people seeing themselves in it based on body image issues, sexuality issues, gender-identification issues, and race issues. If you can be whatever you want, what do you choose? And why? Based on what criteria or social normative concepts? As you correctly say, it's complicated. People see themselves through many lenses.

[Amy]

Thank you, Kenneth. As a few reading here know, I am part of the SF/F community. I have observed these events and concerns for a number of years. Book View Cafe started because there was an extensive e-mail list comprised of female SF/F writers which included such outstanding writers as Ursula Le Guin and Anne McCaffrey . Nearly all members expressed the same concerns over and over regarding their work and careers. These concerns I did not even get to first base in sharing, as primarily a short fiction writer. Except as usual for myself - I did not realize that I'd knocked myself out of the running by supporting my partners and associates and always putting them first ... my first novel was one of the first POD hardcovers, an experiment by Wildside Press. It was barely sent out for review. My first collection, prior to that, had been one of the first POD trade paperbacks - also an "experiment."

My compatriots had been working in the established system, many as I said, for decades. So one day, having observed the pattern of complaints, I said, "Why are we sitting around here taking this when we can now DO something about it?" Because I'd done Wildside 3-4 years. I was one of the first authors to have short fiction in the nascent Amazon Kindle program. I was one of the first to put a significant number of e-book titles with Fictionwise and out of that I did get 500K downloads.

Now, I would never take credit for establishing the cooperative, because Sarah Zettel and so many others did the real heavy lifting. However, today I continue as the Treasurer and I am the incorporating Treasurer.

But I do take credit for Chameleon. I am the founder and I have assembled the team. And it takes all of these things the logical, essential next step forward.

James May's ginormous essay mentions so many writers of the past. Well, hardly any of those he mentioned made a significant portion of their income from their SF/F writing. I have extensive industry background and knowledge and I can assure readers here that any of the names mentioned in the "culture warrior" battleground are *not* earning the main body of their income or a significant living from their sales. I can tell each of you here what number of copies sold would represent a "bestseller" status on any of the lists.

Hunger Games is a bestseller. Twilight was a bestseller. These are SF/F books, but they are both from "outside" the adult SF/F community and genre. One is written by an industry insider and most certainly had some developmental marketing - if only based in Suzanne Collins' work at Scholastic and at Nickelodeon. Twilight was written by a total "outsider" and it was selected as part of a "happy accident" by Megan Tingley at Little-Brown. So now Goodreads is awash with Twi-clones and Twi-inspired work. Because that book and its descendants are addressing a very significant market segment and its tastes and interests.

I would not, for some years, have spoken to one of our adult SF/F genre imprints, nor any of its editorial staff save those I am personally friends with, because they haven't selected books based in reader tastes for decades. I'm sure all reading here know which imprint I'm talking about, and it's at the core and heart of these issues discussed here. It is the model of ever-devolving niche markets and now these things are feeding on themselves. There is no great, breakout book or author going to come out of that structure and system.

And it's a crying shame, really. Because readers want books they can love and read. Books that give them hope, inspiration, enjoyment, delight. Books that strike like snakes at the old, lizard-brain fear in the core of all of us. Books that transport them to times and places where they have never been, but where they would most love to go.

[Micah]

Oh, and can we please stop all this completely bigoted talk about "old white guys" in SFF? For starters, the "old" part is a total myth.

Isaac Asimov - first published when he was 19.
Robert Heinlein - fisrt novel was written when he was 32.
Arthur C. Clarke - first published works when he was 20
J.R.R. Tolkien - The Hobbit came out when he was 44.
George R.R. Martin - started publishing when he was 22.

Yeah, they were all old when most of us found out about them, and they were all white (in 1937-1939 when they were first publishing--except Martin who began in '70--so were almost all authors...it's not just a SFF thing).

[P.S. not really upset about all this, just setting the record straight here]

[Micah]

Becky wrote: "As you correctly say, it's complicated. People see themselves through many lenses..."

And that was exactly my point (and others' here) when we said we didn't try to find ourselves in literature...as in I do not try to find a 55 year old white collar worker with no kids a middle class lifestyle and two cats...I try to find characters with values and personalities that resonante or contrast with my own. That's what's important to me, not the outward appearance or social background.

[Amy]

And to the others here: do me the favor of explaining to me as a small bit of market research -

What is it that appeals so much to you about endless argument and complaint?

What is it about me and my work that is so repellent or which you find not of interest? Because I became a science fiction writer because of Ray Bradbury's talks at the Redlands library when I was a kid. I have over 3 million words in print. I have sufficient skill that I know I achieve desired results with actual readers.

So tell me why you have such a serious preference for the work of individuals who tweet, complain, fight, etc.? I know the market overall and I am establishing a publishing company. But the response is of interest because all of our author partners will be real writers, not those whose investment is greater in internet "presence" or controversy.

[Becky]

Micah wrote: "And that was exactly my point (and others' here) when we said we didn't try to find ourselves in literature...as in I do not try to find a 55 year old white collar worker with no kids a middle class lifestyle and two cats.."

But I think that's, to borrow a phrase that was used in another thread, "obstructive literalism." I have yet to see anyone in this thread asking for books which have characters so specific that it mimics their lives and situations. People are saying that they want diversity in books - something that more closely resembles the diversity of the people who read them.

[Jim]

Amy wrote: "And to the others here: do me the favor of explaining to me as a small bit of market research -

What is it that appeals so much to you about endless argument and complaint?..."

Hi Amy
I confess here and now that I've followed this thread more as an interested outsider. I'm a Brit, we don't have anything like the level of vituperative discussions you do in the US over political correctness.
Frankly a lot of the rants I skimmed, after you've read one the rest fade into each other.
But to answer your question, if I read a discussion on the web and find that one of the protagonists is a writer, well first I'll check the genre. If it's one I'm interested in I'll look at the writer's words more closely. If they engage with humour, show genuine wit, flashes of colour, break off from the discussion to illuminate interesting sidelights, then I am more drawn towards their book.
If they are abusive, dogmatic, boring to read, just appear to parrot some 'party line' then I'm frankly unlikely to look any further at their writing.
It often doesn't really matter what stance they take in a debate. For example if a writer writes wittily and interestingly about the fact there is (or there isn't) major issues of discrimination in US SF then I'm interested, no matter what they argue.
After all, I'm looking for books that are well written, interesting, that grab me and draw me in. If I wanted to read books written by a Saint, that leaves me with the Gospels and a handful of Epistles. :-)

[Amy]

"People are saying that they want diversity in books - something that more closely resembles the diversity of the people who read them."

Becky, to belabor the point - a concern for "people" (if that means readers) is not currently present in established, legacy publishing. Moving to a reader and author-centered process and incorporating principles well-known and effective in every other manufacturing business in the West will enable books to be written and published and brought to "people" meeting all variety of tastes and interests.

At present, the reason the same books and authors get brought up over and over, is that there are only 2 vague metrics used in book selection: "What has sold in the past?" and "Is this like what some trend I thought I saw?"

20% of the adult American population regularly buys and reads books; 40% are now college graduates. Of these, 58% are female and that percentage is expected to increase. At present, females are relatively poorly served in terms of volume and type of product that is provided - the books fit in relatively narrow niches and I could point out to you some underlying book architecture factors of books aimed at female audiences that are even more limiting. Things like structure and voice, chapter length and intellectual content (subject matter).

It's like if you went to the department store and your choices were knee-length skirts, ankle-length pants, 2 types of jeans and short-sleeved button down blouses, and "day dresses" and "evening dresses" in 5 or 6 different colors and styles. That was what the department store was like in the 50s, by the way.

So maybe it might make some sense to say legacy publishing approaches its business as retail clothing and fashion designers did in the 1950s?

[Amy]

And gentlemen, I don't want to hear any complaints. At least your clothes fit and function. Shoes too.

[Becky]

Amy wrote: "At present, the reason the same books and authors get brought up over and over, is that there are only 2 vague metrics used in book selection: "What has sold in the past?" and "Is this like what some trend I thought I saw?" "

Yes... I actually raised that as part of the problem previously in this thread.

[colleen the convivial curmudgeon]

Becky wrote: "I have yet to see anyone in this thread asking for books which have characters so specific that it mimics their lives and situations. People are saying that they want diversity in books - something that more closely resembles the diversity of the people who read them. "

People are awfully fond of their straw men...

[Cynthia]

Alexa wrote: " Would you review my novel, Zollocco: A Novel of Another Universe. It features a female protagonist. I do not give my heroine a name or describe what she looks like because I want every woman to be able to see herself in her.

Regarding this discussion. It is surely interesting. Evaluating literature is distinct from evaluating the character of the author. Knowing about the character of the author is useful in terms of better understanding the works and for understanding the time period. But we can't just cross off the literature list authors whose personal ideas we find objectionable. We'd be reading pretty much nothing then. Shakespeare was a sexist pig. (Taming of the Shrew.) The guy who wrote the Oz books hated Indians and believed there should be a genocide committed against them. (Scary!) Lewis Carol was a pervert. (Took nude pics of little girls and liked no female over the age of 8). Dione Fortune thought being gay was either silliness or mental illness. Lots of this has to do with people being a product of their time. But some of it really is pretty horrible. (The Oz guy!) And yes there is a lot of silly snootiness over genre. Funny books are another sort that tend to get ignored in favor of serious books with symbolism. This is why some of us claim Atwood for sf and Shakespeare for fantasy. They are writing those genres! I was once told I shouldnot like The Tale of Genji because Genji is such a sexist pig. The Tale of Genji is the first novel ever written. It was written by a woman. And its a wonderful romance novel full of ghosts and demons. Genji is a bit of pig (not a total pig) and that that is wrong is part of the point of the novel.

Regarding the students who refused to read Mobi Dick. they missed a great book. The teacher should have found out why they didn't want to read it. Too long? Words too big? If the skill level is to high for their level, yep they will hate it and the teacher does them a disservice to force works on them to high above the ability. There is absolutely no reason why teachers can't ask students what sorts of stories they like and then give them the great works that are of those types. There is no reason public school curricula can not include the types of works the kids like. The kids are there in school available for comment! So ask them!

[Cynthia]

Oy, I just read through sections of the article that caused this thread to be started. His definition of PC is completely bogus and since his premise, the stupid definition of pc is bogus, then his conclusion is bogus. Basic syllogism when the premise is neither valid nor true the conclusion is unlikely to be valid or true.

[Outis]

Amy wrote: "What is it that appeals so much to you about endless argument and complaint?"
Not sure what you're talking about exactly since people are accusing each other of complaning. What you wrote could be read as complaining if one wanted to for instance.
But generally speaking I'm entertained on some level by pseudo-intellectual trainwrecks.

Amy wrote: "What is it about me and my work that is so repellent or which you find not of interest?"
I simply have no idea who you are.
Book View Cafe, I know. Because UKL. As to your business venture, I'm kind of biased in favor of self-publishing and electronic zines as opposed to the dead tree industry because I use an e-reader and buy old books from street vendors.

Amy wrote: "So tell me why you have such a serious preference for the work of individuals who tweet, complain, fight, etc.?
Because I tend to like their fiction better, especially if the author is currently living in the USA. There are exceptions like Greg Egan but I wouldn't mind if he had a higher profile.
Also, online controvery allows me to determine quickly whether an author might be culturally compatible with me. Again, that's mostly needed with authors currently living in the USA.

[Aaron]

Amy wrote: "20% of the adult American population regularly buys and reads books; 40% are now college graduates. Of these, 58% are female and that percentage is expected to increase. At present, females are relatively poorly served in terms of volume and type of product that is provided - the books fit in relatively narrow niches and I could point out to you some underlying book architecture factors of books aimed at female audiences that are even more limiting. Things like structure and voice, chapter length and intellectual content (subject matter). "

I'm going to need in way more detailed statistics then such broad and sweeping ones. The majority of people I know who read books read John Grisham, Nora Roberts, Stephen King and other people whos books you can find piled to the skies in used book stores. Now if I ask people do they read SFF the majority say no, the ones who say yes like 3/4 odds they have read Star ____ and a few dystopians and Tolkien and Maybe Pern or WoT, that will be it. Are these the kind of people who seek out and search for new book series to read NOPE.

Part of what annoys me is Twilight/Hunger Games were toted as books for women, but both have in my opinion awful leads. Twilight yeah it's fanfiction that's pretty much what it is and there is a reason that PNR is seperated from PN.

Hunger Games is a story that has been done before, with a weak female character that was touted to me as strong which just pissed me off when she really didn't do anything and just got pushed around by the PLOT.

So I guess books can be popular and successful but I'll be damned if I can figure out why Hunger Games took off. Twilight the market was pretty obviously there if you just went to fanfiction.net just waiting for the right moment.

In response to your outsiders thing, yes I feel like more of that is important. Perhaps a bigger thing would be more genre blurring as well, heck earlier this week I was asking for some kind of empire building fantasy there are a dozen+ popular sci-fi books that involve admirals of space navies going out and kicking butt and political maunvering and whatever, but there are striking few fantasy books. Fantasy and SF are often considered the same genre and there is a problem with blurring even then. Lois McMaster Bujold is probably one of the better genre blurer's I have seen with the Vorkosigan series jumping all over the place within the sci-fi genre. Curse of Chalion and Paladin of Souls are also very unique feeling books with characters that feel real.

Judy Wrote: "And of course I knew in Japan that I was surrounded by Japanese, lol. But there's a difference between just passively knowing and actually stopping to contemplate how it makes you feel. I still don't really understand Japanese TV. They could explain it to me all they like, but I still may not get it. Culture is real, and we are all bound by our own cultures, as much as we may try to be blind to it.)"

I think this hits the problem a good bit more, due to excessive amounts of anime, LNs, VNs, Manga, JDrama, etc. I think I get their entertainment culture and their jokes but there is a good bit of hillarious stuff that if I show to someone who hasn't done all of this will just not get it. I feel this is kind of the problem if you try to write from another perspective or about another culture is you just don't get it and the majority of people never really go out of their way to get it, which is why a good number of SFF authors create their own new cultures/races so they can explore the same themes but without all the work of researching an existing culture.

[Ken]

Amy wrote: "And gentlemen, I don't want to hear any complaints. At least your clothes fit and function. Shoes too."

I've actually whined to my wife about how mens' clothing is so drab and unoriginal. I envy some of her awesome jackets with needless buckles and collars, with multi-colored shoes and socks. And being my proportions (narrow and not all that tall either) makes finding clothing hard. "M" should be the average size, not XL. And I always have to wear a belt and roll up my leg cuffs. I suppose that's a whole separate topic involving US fashion and/obesity trends.

Amy, as you said, the industry serves "only 2 vague metrics used in book selection: "What has sold in the past?" and "Is this like what some trend I thought I saw?" And this is really unfortunate. Publishers ride the fad waves and the selection that is widely available suffers for it. Because of this, I have not heard of you, nor do I peruse brick and mortar bookshops. They simply stock a whole shelf of Twi-copies rather than one copy of each book by varied authors. Sure, that's an exaggeration. But only sort of. I end up buying paper books online as a result.

Always looking for recommendations and interesting new (to me) authors, hence membership in GoodReads and other websites of similar use.

[Amy]

Jim wrote: "Amy wrote: "And to the others here: do me the favor of explaining to me as a small bit of market research -

What is it that appeals so much to you about endless argument and complaint?..."

Hi Amy..."

Well, it's not like I said the same as has been said 10K times before, is it?

You'd probably like Igor's work. He's the Naked Poet and I'm the Janis Joplin of publishing. http://igorgoldkind.com/tag/igor-gold...

Anyone here who does not know who I am, may discern from what I've said and the links I've put who I am. There's also our spare brain, known as "Mr. Google" and I do have a full Goodreads profile with book links. If you think I'm nobody, respectfully, I do not draw my sense of self-worth from this type of thing.

Thank you for all the feedback and responses. There is indeed a divergence in the reading tastes and preferences of those who buy new paper books and those who use e-readers.