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Political Correctness, Bigotry, and Hypocrisy In Current SciFi/Fantasy Circles
As for representation and writing from minority points of view, I'm the same as Jim: I don't look for myself in books. (That would actually be pretty dull...who wants to read about a fat, mid-50s white guy who spends all day working with databases in the cube farm of a major corporation? Eeeew!)Alexa put it well: look for yourself in the personality of the characters (or at least look for an empathetic connection with them).
I also think it's unrealistic to expect authors to write well from an alien (not talking space aliens here) perspective. They always tell you write from what you know. And if you've never been, or lived with, a young black woman, or a Hispanic senior citizen or an Asian non-English speaking immigrant to Louisiana...well, you can write about those people, certainly, but good luck getting it to ring true. (And get prepared for the inevitable backlash of "how dare he presume to write from that perspective!" from irate readers, no matter how well you've done).
I'm not advocating writing exclusively within your experience, but if identity literature is what you want to read (and I see nothing particularly wrong with that), would you really want to read an old middle class white guy's interpretation of whatever identity group you're interested in? Shouldn't that come from within the identity group itself?
When it comes to representation as opposed to identity, though, SFF/speculative fiction authors have it made. Since the worlds they write about can have any social/political setting they want, it's easy to put in characters that represent all of humanity. You just can't expect them to be accurate reflections of modern human experience.
Micah wrote: "As for representation and writing from minority points of view, I'm the same as Jim: I don't look for myself in books. (That would actually be pretty dull...who wants to read about a fat, mid-50s w..."Given that hetrosexual white males over the age of fifty are a minority I would hope we'd be treated with some respect :-)
Well...as Nigel Planer's character said in "The Comic Strip Presents" (the Fist Full of Travelers' Cheques episode): "Oh yeah? That's cool, everyone's got to be something."(How's that for an obscure reference?)
Carole-Ann wrote: "I've just completed reading this Very LONG Essay by James May ..."No kidding! You finished it? Well done! I tried. Eventually I copied it into a word processor and ran a count - 43000+ words - yes, 43 thousand plus!
That isn't an essay, it is a book.
Sorry, I just don't feel that motivated. If the guy really wants to put his point across, then reading out this text on a TED-style YouTube clip might be his best solution - but I think it would take well over an hour, possibly three. Sorry, not interested! I am in Goodreads to find books that I can enjoy reading - for pleasure. This, even the first couple of thousand words that I did get through, is work (and not particularly enjoyable work either!)
During my six-plus decades of existence, I have had the good fortune to be able to include among my friends, relatives and acquaintances persons representing practically every generation, occupation, social/financial status, race, religious/political philosophy, gender and sexual persuasion.They have taught me much. Many of my best ideas have come from others.
I think it's easier to say "I don't look for myself in books" when you are the primary representation in books. I'd love to see the day (that will never come) when a white male looks up and can only find books that star POC women. THEN tell me that "you don't look for yourself." Shoot, my husband gets squirrelly just reading books with a female MC. "It feels weird," he says.But for a lot of people, exploration via books is how they learn to dream. It's sad that the representation is not there. It's not like the books aren't already being written - I feel there is no need to "force" an author to write outside of their comfort zone - but they are not being picked up (for publish) regularly. ANd even when they are published, publishers white wash the covers to remove the very idea that a character is POC.
The most recent cover white washing was done with the Peter Grant series starting with Midnight Riot
. The original MMPB copy had an African American man (full face & body) on the cover. It was then suddenly changed to the shadow you see above. The editor said she would do a Q&A with the group when we picked Midnight Riot but she then dipped out when we questioned her about the cover change.
MrsJoseph wrote: "I think it's easier to say "I don't look for myself in books" when you are the primary representation in books. I'd love to see the day (that will never come) when a white male looks up and can on..."What you forget is that most people don't care. They read books for enjoyment. If they're not enjoying them the book is slung, probably unfinished.
If I'm reading a book that has a cracking good story, I don't care what the main character is
If I'm reading a book written because it's trying to further some late 20th century, early 21st century social agenda, it's going to get slung, unless it's a cracking good story. In which case I still don't care what the main character is.
Just edited to comment that given the ease of indie publishing you can put what you like on the cover
Jim wrote: "What you forget is that most people don't care. They read books for enjoyment. If they're not enjoying them the book is slung, probably unfinished. "Strange. I happen to know a LOT OF PEOPLE who do care. Personal experience and all that.
But I can clearly see that we won't see eye to eye on this one. It's hard to have an issue with the status quo when you are the status quo...
I don't identify by my skin color. If I'm looking for "me" in a book, it might be a female or an alien or a blue person. I would be looking for my persona, not my appearance. I don't typically look for myself in the protagonist. I enjoy books where I loathe the protagonist's actions, sometimes. I don't need to feel kinship with them to enjoy the story being told.I hate what colonialism and globalization has done to localized culture, and I dislike the uniformity it generates and how PC attitudes are erasing the differences because we aren't mature enough to confront them, embrace them.
POC, MC, stereotypes. Please explain to the ignorant masses. When somebody writes like that I see an agenda.
On the other hand, following my generally acceptable freedom of speech, I write what my inspiration tells me.
Only when writing for money it is acceptable to be politically correct. But that is -- in sexual terms -- prostitution or at best cowardly. Even worse, writing SciFi being politically correct means being retrograde. The future is going to be different.
I believe most writers follow their inspiration and don't care about $. Which is anyway extremely difficult to get in this profession.
Jim, Kenneth, and any other white folk who don't get what MrsJoseph is saying . . . have you ever spent time (and I'm talking more than a couple hours) in an environment where you truly were a minority? She's got a point, that you can't see unless you've been there.I have a Japanese American friend. She and I went to Japan, and standing in one of the crowded subways there, she turned to me and asked, "Feel like a minority now?" I looked around, and sure enough, I was the only non-Japanese person on that train. It felt weird. She had told me before how strange and alone she felt when moving to Arizona and seeing nothing but old white people in the town (and Hispanics, but not in the area she was living). There is definitely something to be said for seeking that which is like yourself.
We need more writers like Octavia Butler. And we need publishers to not be afraid to show some color on their covers.
We also need to expand our own experiences a little, and come out of our comfort zones. Venture into that place where things are NOT like you.
Judy wrote: "Jim, Kenneth, and any other white folk who don't get what MrsJoseph is saying . . . have you ever spent time (and I'm talking more than a couple hours) in an environment where you truly were a minority? She's got a point, that you can't see unless you've been there.I have a Japanese American friend. She and I went to Japan, and standing in one of the crowded subways there, she turned to me and asked, "Feel like a minority now?" I looked around, and sure enough, I was the only non-Japanese person on that train. It felt weird. She had told me before how strange and alone she felt when moving to Arizona and seeing nothing but old white people in the town (and Hispanics, but not in the area she was living). There is definitely something to be said for seeking that which is like yourself.
We need more writers like Octavia Butler. And we need publishers to not be afraid to show some color on their covers.
We also need to expand our own experiences a little, and come out of our comfort zones. Venture into that place where things are NOT like you. "
I really appreciate the fact that you actually understand what I'm trying to get across.
Humberto wrote: "POC, MC, stereotypes. Please explain to the ignorant masses. When somebody writes like that I see an agenda.
On the other hand, following my generally acceptable freedom of speech, I write what ..."
And for God's sake, this isn't about "being PC." Or any agenda other than seeing that bright smile on a child's face when they finally feel included. But if that is some type of political agenda to you, so be it.
I CLEARLY said, It's not like the books aren't already being written - I feel there is no need to "force" an author to write outside of their comfort zone
So, please. Write to your muse and ignore my comments. I'd hate to make you feel like some sort of prostitute or something.
*rolls eyes*
Kenneth. Good job.
I agree that most readers do not identify -- necessarily -- with the characters.
I have been accused of portraying myself as the main character of my books. Some of my main characters are alien and female and I try to portray them realistically, but I am not them. Same with my male characters, although there is always this lingering doubt if I used personal experiences to tell the story.
I am not PC. Just because I lived before the term was coined and also I am not a conformist.
I believe in equality. Beyond rules. Men, women, race, $, sexual orientation. That is life. Let's portray it in our books.
Humberto wrote: "Kenneth. Good job.
I agree that most readers do not identify -- necessarily -- with the characters.
I have been accused of portraying myself as the main character of my books. Some of my main ..."
I disagree 100000%. Readers OFTEN identify with characters. ALL THE TIME.
*facepalm* I can't even...
Mrs.Joseph. I don't write books for children because I was appalled -- as a child reader -- by the cruelty of some of the classics.
On the other hand, I was reading the bible at 7 and other -- adult books -- like the 1000 and 1 nights. Which is erotic. I see two possible outcomes: I became a terrible person or it didn't matter. Either way I am glad to have read so many beautiful books. I blame my parents who didn't lock their books.
Mrs.Joseph. If you identify then good for you.
I normally don't.
For example I am reading Peter Hamilton the void books. I do not really ID myself with any. When I write I distill bites of my life in my characters. Like a car chase, but the driver is Mireya a beautiful girl.
I think that is a personal thing. I hope you can read my books and tell me if you identify yourself with Gia or Mireya or Ariane. Or maybe with my alien Empy.
I envy you. You must have high empathy and are thus able to live their lives.
Judy wrote: "...have you ever spent time (and I'm talking more than a couple hours) in an environment where you truly were a minority..."That's beside the point really. Of course we understand (intellectually if not experientially) that existing as a minority feels strange and alienating. But that's not really the point. The point is, do you need to see your own culture/ethnic identity reflected in books in order for you to enjoy it?
When you were in Japan feeling all minoritized, did you feel less inclined to watch Japanese cinema? Or read Japanese books? Plenty of us status quo white guys have read books and watched movies from foreign lands/cultures and did not find ourselves directly represented in them, and yet found satisfaction in them all the same.
Any man who feels odd reading a book with a female or minority protagonist, I think, has issues whether they're white or not.
Just pulling some of the books I've read out of my GR list...
Against a Dark Background
Blue Remembered Earth
2312
Queen of Angels
All written by white guys featuring female leads. Whether I liked the books or not had nothing to do with the race or gender of the main character. It was the quality of the writing.
All that said, I think there is a valid need for identity literature. But I think it's unfair to expect that need to be fulfilled by SFF written by your average SFF writer. That's not their main focus. Their main focus, if anything, should be to give us glimpses of societies where all that doesn't matter. In which case, just randomly making character black or Asian or Hispanic or physically disabled still won't serve the function of indentity literature.
Basically, identity literature (which can be SF, certainly) needs to come out of the demographic that needs it. I'm all for that. More black SFF authors? Yes, please. More everything authors. Just write well.
Judy wrote: "She and I went to Japan, and standing in one of the crowded subways there, she turned to me and asked, "Feel like a minority now?" I looked around, and sure enough, I was the only non-Japanese person on that train. It felt weird."You mean you didn't notice before then? Until she went out of her way to point it out to you?
Humberto wrote: "I agree that most readers do not identify -- necessarily -- with the characters."D:
That is my emoticon of shock and horror.
If I cannot identify with a character in SOME WAY, then that book has failed to engage me as a reader, and I cannot enjoy it. You can fill it with the best plot, the most expert writing, the most stunning settings... and I will dislike it.
I am a character reader. I don't necessarily look for "me" in books - part of what I want is to see things through someone else's eyes, and to learn from someone else's experiences... but it's up to the author to make that happen and write in a convincing way so that I can empathize and feel for the characters.
If you're writing based on an assumption that's not necessary, your books are not for me.
Humberto wrote: "When I write I distill bites of my life in my characters. Like a car chase, but the driver is Mireya a beautiful girl. "Uhh, what?
Seeing is Believing: Why Media Representation MattersSelected quotes:
The media helps to shape who and what we see as important, as well as outlining the range of visible options for what is collectively seen as possible. Who can be a politician? Who can be celebrated? Who is part of the community and who is Other, the outsider? Who is seen to live happy, healthy lives, and whose lives are invisible? If you see yourself, or someone like you, portrayed positively in the media, it can offer a sense of belonging and opportunity, but the opposite is also true.
[...]
The media is one of our tools for interpreting our reality, but when our reality is absent from the media, we may feel like our role has been written out. We may feel ignored, rejected, or erased.
[...]
Making media that makes space for everyone is a powerful step towards accepting and celebrating everyone. We should all feel welcome and reflected in our media and in our communities.
***
And before anyone says anything, no, for the love of the gods, this does not mean people want tokenism or that there's a PC Police checking off an accepted number of minorities in your damn book (because that's *always* the next argument).
I'm sharing this just in an attempt to help people understand their own privilege, and what it might be like for those who don't share it.
Becky wrote: "Humberto wrote: "I agree that most readers do not identify -- necessarily -- with the characters."D:
That is my emoticon of shock and horror.
If I cannot identify with a character in SOME WAY, then that book has failed to engage me as a reader, and I cannot enjoy it. You can fill it with the best plot, the most expert writing, the most stunning settings... and I will dislike it. "
Also, this. So much this.
If I can't relate to a character in some way, then I don't give a flying flip about their story.
Its not reading a story about someone who isn't like me that turns me off, that happens in literature all the time. But there are quite a few older writers who actually include sexist, homophobic writing.Having a novel with the main characters being straight, white guys isn't a problem. But if they treat any female or gay characters like crap, as stereotypes, or, the women, as nothing more but a body with a vagina then that's a problem. There is just so much demeaning of women that I can take in my reading before I'm ready to throw a book out the window.
I read about half of that article and the writer just seemed angry that others are being represented in stories. Tokenism is just as crappy. But a good story can have a diverse character and still be a good story. Like in Snow Crash, the main character is black-Japanese. Would it have made the writer of that article feel better if he was just another white guy?
Yes, SFF has a past, but sometimes the biases of the past can make stories unreadable to modern readers. Why waste time reading something you don't enjoy?
There's seomthing funny about calls for SFF authors to write more "diverse" characters that underrepresented readers can identify with because, at last check, the Malazan Empire is not a real place and none of us have had the burden of growing up an orphaned Child of Prophecy. I'm a card-carrying member of the patriarchy and I've never "identified" with a character on the basis of race or gender. Rand al-Thor, Richard Rahl, and Ender Wiggin to a lesser extent, despite all being people of pallor, are douchebags and folks I don't identify with. Whereas Tyrion Lannister is a character whom I completely identify with (despite the fact he's a deformed dwarf, but he's a badass).
Unless the author elects to shove it down my throat and describe a character as "fuligin." (or slightly purple-ish if you're Drizzt) I'm not paying attention to their race or gender of the character and it's RARELY integral to the character.
So when people seek characters "familiar to themselves", maybe stories about Dragons and Lasers Spaceships isn't the best place...
Christopher wrote: "There's seomthing funny about calls for SFF authors to write more "diverse" characters that underrepresented readers can identify with because, at last check, the Malazan Empire is not a real place..."Ok. So, I never, ever want to hear "but realism!!!" from you (or any man in this thread claiming to not understand) the next time sexism or rape comes up in discussion.
Humberto wrote: "Mrs.Joseph. If you identify then good for you.
I normally don't.
For example I am reading Peter Hamilton the void books. I do not really ID myself with any. When I write I distill bites of my ..."
willful blindness is willful.
Ok. So, I never, ever want to hear "but realism!!!" from you (or any man in this thread claiming to not understand) the next time sexism or rape comes up in discussion.You'll hear if it applies. If the author is writing about something with a real-world parallel (for example, a near future novel with a car chase where the author doesn't understand how cars work), then realism (or rather, believability) is relevant. But rarely does gender or the color of one's skin or factor into whether the Flaming Sword of Demon-Slaying lights up or whether the Gothon BattleCruiser will be able to make .5 past light speed.
If you want to say that most male authors can't write a believably traumatic/horrific rape scene, no arugment here. I'd go further and say most authors of EITHER sex would fail at that task. (and this is not unique to SFF in any way, shape, or form).
Micah wrote: "That's beside the point really. Of course we understand (intellectually if not experientially) that existing as a minority feels strange and alienating. But that's not really the point. The point is, do you need to see your own culture/ethnic identity reflected in books in order for you to enjoy it?"It must be nice to argue from a place of privilege.
So, can you agree that media is powerful? Often insidious?
You can't see - at all - the desire for representation of yourself?
And does it really become PC for someone to say, "It would be nice to see me in a book"? Seriously? This is a PC thing now. I didn't even realize I'd contacted my senator to lodge a complaint or anything... /sarcasm
It must be nice to be able to rattle off a list of 4 books that don't have a white male MC. I can rattle off a list that mostly includes EVERY BOOK IN MY LIBRARY that DOES have a white male MC.
Have I once demanded that someone run off and write a book - catered to me??? Not. At. All.
Have I once demanded that writers go off and - as Humberto so sweetly put it - "prostitute themselves" by not writing another book with a while male MC? Not. At. All.
So, while you can not agree with me, it is insulting to say that my viewpoint "is besides the point." You are dismissing ME and everyone else who does not share your privilege.
I'm with U. Describing an alien who people identify with is really an achievement. Highly anthropomorphic thou.
Aliens are different. But so are many humans. If a reader has to find something in common with the character, that is limiting.
Maybe that is why mythological gods were made in our image. And others too.
Christopher wrote: "Ok. So, I never, ever want to hear "but realism!!!" from you (or any man in this thread claiming to not understand) the next time sexism or rape comes up in discussion.You'll hear if it applies. ..."
Bullshit.
You can't decide when realism in regards to SFF - cause it seems your line is "what ever I like."
Cause I want to see where rape and sexism applies to fantasy. You are saying fantasy ≠ reality. So now we only apply reality when a woman gets raped or mistreated. But if we start talking about representation of women, minorities and/or LGBT we should pull out the "SFF ≠ Realism" line??? Reaalllly?
This is laughable now.
Humberto wrote: "I'm with U. Describing an alien who people identify with is really an achievement. Highly anthropomorphic thou.
Aliens are different. But so are many humans. If a reader has to find something i..."
willful blindness is willful
Christopher wrote: "If the author is writing about something with a real-world parallel (for example, a near future novel with a car chase where the author doesn't understand how cars work), then realism (or rather, believability) is relevant."So, it kinda sounds to me like you're saying that social issues like race and gender and status cannot have a parallel in made-up-world SFF. That is probably the most ridiculous thing I've seen today.
There's a quote from Solaris that has stuck with me for a long time. It's in regards to space exploration, but I think it fits here, too:
"We don't want to conquer the cosmos, we simply want to extend the boundaries of Earth to the frontiers of the cosmos. For us, such and such a planet is as arid as the Sahara, another as frozen as the North Pole, yet another as lush as the Amazon basin. We are humanitarian and chivalrous; we don't want to enslave other races, we simply want to bequeath them our values and take over their heritage in exchange. We think of ourselves as the Knights of the Holy Contact. This is another lie. We are only seeking Man. We have no need of other worlds. We need mirrors. We don't know what to do with other worlds."
We look for ourselves in everything - even fiction. We relate it to ourselves. It may be a non-Earthlike world, but it's still just us.
MrsJoseph wrote: "Strange. I happen to know a LOT OF PEOPLE who do care. Personal experience and all that.But I can clearly see that we won't see eye to eye on this one. It's hard to have an issue with the status quo when you are the status quo...
..."
Sorry but I'm a minority to, rural white hetrosexual males are very much a minority in the UK :-)
But then the British attitude is probably different to the US attitude
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fHMoD...
You can't decide when realism in regards to SFF - cause it seems your line is "what ever I like."Cause I want to see where rape and sexism applies to fantasy. You are saying fantasy ≠ reality. So now we only apply reality when a woman gets raped or mistreated. But if we start talking about representation of women or minorities we should pull out the "SFF ≠ Realism" line??? Reaalllly?
This is laughable now.
Pause. Breathe. Re-read. Edit. Respond.
How women are portrayed in fiction (of all stripes) is a legitimate topic of discussion. That's not in dispute (no matter how many questions marks or exclamation points you use).
What's laughable, however, is your odd need to see ethnically-specific characters in books about Dragons and Spaceships in entirely made up worlds.
And yes, neither fantasy nor SF = reality. I'm on pretty solid (privileged) footing there.
And I hate to break it to you, but you really DON'T have that much in common with the vaugely ethnically-specific protagonist from the 4th planet of the Quatloo Solar System. (I know for a fact that Quatlooians positively HATE all Earthlings).
So when you cite approvingly anecdotes about whitey in Japan finally realizing her "otherness" as indicative of the insufficiently diverse state of SFF writing, it makes me laugh.
So you're right, it is laughable.
Wow this... totally exploded. I'll try to address all the things directed my way.
Judy: Yes, I have been places where I was unquestionably the minority. Mainland China, the Middle East, Iceland. Again, race is not really my go-to identifier. I have been a cultural and linguistic minority in many experiences. My work causes me to travel. I have been to nearly 30 countries on 6 continents. Many of my friends are minorities here in the US.
MrsJoseph: Please understand that I am not dismissing the plight of minorities or their desire to see more of their cultures in mainstream writing. I'd like that too. I enjoy reading about things I am not familiar with. I'm not your typical white American male. My picture is misleading. The color of my skin is not who I am.
Humberto's first reply to me: Yes, exactly. I understand and agree. Except that I think I am in the minority (pun intended) amongst readers who often identify with a protagonist. I don't need to, but many do.
Micah: Yes, spot on. I agree with you too.
Alicja: I think it's important to make the distinction between what a character does and says, from what the author is trying to convey with their story. Certainly I have read stories where characters took deplorable actions but the story is at odds with their worldview. In them, the author uses the character's poor morality as a mirror to society, showcasing what NOT to do and how it can lead to self-destruction. Therefore, I can enjoy a story with terrible people in them if the story is an interesting one that itself does not harbor racist or sexist views.
RE Christopher/MrsJoseph: This is a thorny bush. Chris has a point about realism mattering. You can't break the laws of physics without an explanation, or decide that society is utopian and cordial to one another all the time with respect to race and sex. That's just not humanity, for the sad truth of it. UNLESS you're writing a utopian story. That does not mean you have to go out of your way to include assholes. It does mean you probably shouldn't go out of your way to prove the point otherwise, unless it matters to your plotline. At that point, the positive reinforcement turns into PC tokenism and just serves to undermine the advancement we've already achieved (and yes, much more to go) with regard to racial and sexual equality.
Christopher wrote: "You can't decide when realism in regards to SFF - cause it seems your line is "what ever I like."Cause I want to see where rape and sexism applies to fantasy. You are saying fantasy ≠ reality. So..."
Becky wrote: "So, it kinda sounds to me like you're saying that social issues like race and gender and status cannot have a parallel in made-up-world SFF. That is probably the most ridiculous thing I've seen today."
What Becky said.
*rolls eyes*
Becky wrote: So, it kinda sounds to me like you're saying that social issues like race and gender and status cannot have a parallel in made-up-world SFF. That is probably the most ridiculous thing I've seen today. I'd agree. But that's not remotely what I'm saying. Some of the best SFF is thought provoking analogues to real-world social issues (the graphic novel 'Saga' is a decent current example)
I'm finding humor in the calls that there needs to be more characters with my/your/his/her special snowflake ethnic/gender/orientation makeup.
Critiques that chracters aren't sufficiently idenfitiable with a particular real-world group are funny because generally, they aren't supposed to be.
They can be analogous, but if it was just a straight case of transplanting one ethnic group into a SFF setting, you end up with Mel Brooks' "Jews in Space."
You got "Jews in Space" from this discussion.*blink*
I am...disappointed. Like, so disappointed that I can't even get angry. Of course, it also makes me doubt either your sincerity or your intelligence but...
Wow. Jews in Space.
Couldn't be more insulting, but hey. If that's how you see diversity - as a Mel Brooks skit. Ok.
It's like there was a bridge...and you just jumped off of it.
Special snowflake. Right.
I'm sorry. We won't be having any more discussions with each other. I don't want to disturb you with my "special snowflake Mel Brooks" desires.
I don't see anyone calling for ethnic transplants be inserted in a fictional world. I see people raising the point that the majority of characters fall into a very narrow category of 'normal' characters. There's a huge gap where other types of characters should be and aren't. In addition, often, the "other" is seen as the enemy with little to no attempt at understanding their cultural differences.
To your point, does it make a difference if the main character is red, green, or purple if it is not vital to the plot? I say yes. Not everything has to be plot-vital to matter to a reader. Who is marked as the hero often is just as important. Does that make it a 'token' insert character? Only if the author makes it so - I think the burden of writing ANY kind of believable character falls on them.
Fiction and literature is a HUGE arena... why should it be dominated by one type of character?
You got "Jews in Space" from this discussion.It seemed an apt reference in making the point of transplanting cultures, whole-cloth, into a SFF setting. It's also a funny skit. You should watch it.
Would you prefer "A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court"?
I am...disappointed. Like, so disappointed that I can't even get angry.
Promise?
Couldn't be more insulting, but hey. If that's how you see diversity - as a Mel Brooks skit. Ok.
Actually, I could be a LOT more insulting. But as I've said several times, calls/demands for ethnic/gender/orientation specific characters being inserted into SFF settings is a funny conceit (and it is precisely that).
YOU might really really want to know "how would a ethincally Chinese day laborer react to being born on the planet Shmoosh?" If so, good on ya. It's an odd niche probably more appropriate to a fanfiction usenet group than popular literature.
It's like there was a bridge...and you just jumped off of it.
Was there a shark in the water for me to jump over on the way down?
I'm sorry. We won't be having any more discussions with each other. I don't want to disturb you with my "special snowflake Mel Brooks" desires.
Disturbing? No. Amusing? Very.
Huge arena. We would be having this discussion about minorities. Like Romans in Roman Empire. Or their slave majority.
Really, there can be no limits in writing. If somebody wants to write about a rapist, in first person, that is valid. In the plot, the rapist could feel that is the way it should be. Like in ancient wars, where the nonprofessional army went to war looking for the spoils of war. Which included rape, murder and theft.
How can anybody portray a soldier of the time? How can the author show the immense cruelty and savagery?
That time is not that far away. History has a tendency to repeat itself. A few years ago terrible things happened in Czechoslovakia. It is now happening in India, Afghanistan, Africa.
In some genders, authors have to portray reality. And reality isn't PC.
I am finding rather disturbing the way this tread has turned into a clash of opinions, with some pushing rather agressively their point of view. To expect a certain ratio of main characters to be from a specific sex or race is by itself politically incorrect in my opinion (god, I hate that term!). Before Mrs.Joseph calls me an old white male fossile, know that all the main characters in my novels are female, and not exactly weak ones. I have spent a total of five and a half years overseas and know what it is to feel different. I intend to continue writing SF in a way that is entertaining to the readers (all the readers, not only white males) and to use main characters that are pertinent to the story plot, irrelevant of sex/race. Calling others racists or sexists because you don't see what you want to see in books is not a good way to promote good SF writing.
I have to say, it seems that Humberto and Christopher are not being well understood, because I don't have a problem with their comments. You can show discrimination and evil without presenting it as a valid ideology. IN FACT, to whitewash it out would be to sweep those very real problems under the rug as if they didn't exist.
Gotta say that I don't continue with fiction that lacks a character I can identify with. But that doesn't mean that character has to be like me, a white Texas girl in her twenties. I have identified with Eowyn in TLOTR, Menolly in Dragonsinger, Flashman in those novels, Sir James the Dragon Knight, Mike Stearns in the Ring of Fire books, Jack Aubrey in Patrick O'Brian's novels, Juan Rico in Starship Troopers, Hornblower, Ged in a Wizard of Earthsea, and Alan Quartermain. What matters is that they are likable and fun.
Becky wrote: "I don't see anyone calling for ethnic transplants be inserted in a fictional world. I see people raising the point that the majority of characters fall into a very narrow category of 'normal' chara..."The whole tenor and tone of this discussion has been "most SFF is written by older white dudes. Old white dudes can't effectively write non-white dude characters. We need more non-old white dude authors and more non-white dude characters."
My point has been that the race/gender isn't generally relevant to characters in most SFF books (at least not in a modern world racial dynamic way).
And given the fantastical nature of SFF worlds, having characters TOO specifically linked to a specific real-world ethnic/religious/gender cohort is just posturing and pseudo-intellectual onanism.
Is the SFF world really missing something if the protagonist isn't SPECIFICALLY noted to be a WASP? Does the story (or even character) really get a boost by having the protagonist be an intergalactic-Navajo? No.
Can you make those aspects an interesting element of the character? Sure. But again, if the similarities are too close to a real-world analogue (because we're in a dragons and spaceship universe), then it will come across as a ham-fisted attempt at "diversity." Which it is.
Humberto wrote: "Huge arena. We would be having this discussion about minorities. Like Romans in Roman Empire. Or their slave majority."
Slaves were a majority in population, but they were quite the minority in terms of representation in the arts. They didn't have power or a voice like the Roman minority did while enjoying their conquered empire. And minorities in terms of representation in the arts is what this discussion is about.
Humberto wrote: "And reality isn't PC."
I would agree with you there. You won't see me arguing for "PC". You will see me arguing for more varied people and experiences and perspectives. Those things are not the same thing.
I'd say those things are out there. So go read them?BTW, I might mention here that my goodreads shelf is not the full & complete list of all I've read. I've been lazy in updating the back catalog, so to speak. And have recently revised a number of erroneous ratings. Missing many, if not most reviews too. Someone used that data to level an accusatory argument against me in another topic.
I'm all for more books with diverse perspectives.
I'm not for books with token characters, or books promoted above others for the inclusion of a minority viewpoint IF those others it had 'beat' were in fact better-told stories. Yes, that one is a slippery subjective slope and hard to define clearly for me. I want to read the best stories, regardless of the characters' race or sex. Recently, How the World Became Quiet: Myths of the Past, Present, and Future was very alien to me. It was interesting to read about since I could not identify with any of the characters but found her stories well-written and fascinating. The otherness itself was a good thing. But again, I won't go out seeking women authors, or authors of certain ethnicity, just as I don't seek out white guy authors. I seek out good stories.
So yes, more books with different perspectives. But not artificially propped-up stories or token PC characters.
SciFi and Fantasy Book Club
Books mentioned in this topic
How the World Became Quiet (other topics)Against a Dark Background (other topics)
Blue Remembered Earth (other topics)
2312 (other topics)
Queen of Angels (other topics)
More...
Authors mentioned in this topic
Ursula K. Le Guin (other topics)Lord Dunsany (other topics)
J.R.R. Tolkien (other topics)
Gone With the Wind counts as Romance. ;D