Georgette Heyer Fans discussion

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Pistols For Two
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Pistols for Two Group Read March 2017


Here GH's gift for writing about men and from the male view point comes to the fore. Her gift at period setting (reference to grandfathers fighting in wigs) and for deft touches on characters is evident. What fondness she has for boys, adolescent men, when they are in their primes and in later life. Perhaps that is one of the reasons why women love GH so much - because she is writing about men (whom we in general) also adore? Some things that made me chuckle - was the dismissal by Jack and Tom of a 'thirty' year old as if they were ancient - probably already a father of a hopeful family and the reference to their fathers playing chess as veritable ancients 'probably above 45' and couldn't relate to the passions of a hot headed 17 to19 year old (not yet down from Oxford?) male. Of COURSE there is someone with grey eyes (Jack) because that is a GH signature. Its is very sweet - i.e. Gavin Kilham's deft handling of these young men's delicate pride. I imagine he briefed Marianne's father behind the scenes that he would take care of the fight - i.e. make sure the guns weren't loaded. It is so amusing how the three young men could be distracted by a bang up pair of thoroughbred horses. Of course we had the last minute remorse before the duel and Tom's recollection of how Jack actually meant more to him as a bosom friend than Marrianne did. Its also touching how he regarded Jack's father as an uncle and how his own father the squire was close to Jack's father - no doubt how Jack and Tom will end up one day. I think GH had such a good feel as to how these small communities - everyone knew everyone else and was close.
I can't think of another GH story which was such an outright tribute to the male of the species - apart from perhaps Frederica.
Loved this short story - which was essentially a beautifully written note of affection by GH to all little boys, hopefully adolescents, young bucks and wise 'old' men of 45 plus.


i "I can't think of another GH story which was such an outright tribute to the male of the species - apart from perhaps Frederica.
Bonds of male friendship were a very strong theme of The Conqueror.

Here GH's gift for writing about men and from the male view point comes to the fore. Her gift at period setting (reference to grandfathers fighting in wigs) and for deft touches on..."
Beautifully put as always Belinda! I hadn't thought about it like that but you're absolutely right, she has a way of writing boys and young men (and "old" men) that is very touching. Thanks, I smiled just remembering Jack and Tom's friendship.

There has to be! We can't have her going off to take charge of nine children, for a woman who thinks the gig is good enough for the governess on a rainy day! I agree with John that she cannot be "at all an amiable person."

I have been impressed with the many comparisons and similarities demonstrated between these stories and Heyer's novels, with plot devices and stock characters reappearing with variously successful effect.
This story is really the only one I could not easily place in her other works. I agree with Belinda's assessment of it as: " a beautifully written note of affection by GH to all little boys, hopefully adolescents, young bucks and wise 'old' men of 45 plus."

This, along with the title story, are the only ones that I remembered from reading it many years ago, and I love it. Anne is not as young as we think she is at first, but she might as well be due to her naivete and lack of Society experience. The line that stayed with me all those years was, "He knew an impulse to kiss the face he had upturned, but he repressed it, released her chin, and drove on." Anne's effective use of the puppy-dog eyes is reminiscent of Felix in Frederica and his appeals to Cousin Alverstoke, although transplanted into a soon-to-be romantic relationship. At least he doesn't propose on the basis of a few days' acquaintance, as happens in many of the other stories!
How could you not love Lady Almeria Spalding, though -- Miss Eugenia Wraxton of The Grand Sophy made over, but mouthier. I love her brother's appalled realization that she is throwing away money with both hands as she gives Sir Charles what-for! This one also has traces of Sprig Muslin with the mistakenly identifying a well-bred young lady as a "barque of frailty" (one of my favorite Heyer-isms.)

Although we never see her, Elinor's sister Clara is obviously Selina from Black Sheep. Good thing we don't see her, because we hate her anyway, as does Iver, and there doesn't seem to be much love lost between her and Elinor either. Usually in Heyer's elopement plots, the youngsters are the ones who fall to quarreling like children, but here it's the grownups sniping at each other with every sentence, while the kiddos (at least Arthur) are responsible enough to go to a relative's home instead of Gretna Green. I love that Iver wants to head right on to the Border with Elinor. I kind of wish they had done it!

As has been previously noted, the impoverished nobleman needing to marry the heiress who is secretly in love with him is straight out of A Civil Contract. The climactic scene of mistaken elopements recalls Friday's Child. Henrietta's shy demeanor reminds me of Harriet from The Foundling, in that (view spoiler) . And the Honourable Timothy Allerton is clearly kin to dear Freddy of Cotillion.

I do like this story, improbable as it is. Dorothea is such a sweet little heroine that I would like to believe she could make a man like Rotherfield instantly make a complete about-face in his lifestyle and character. I don't believe it, but I sure would like to.
Rotherfield's anger at thinking he is being stalked by a designing young woman mirrors Charles Beaumaris' in Arabella. A common Heyer stock character, the useless and expensive brother, shows up here in much the same way as Arabella's brother, and Nell's from April Lady.
I think my favorite, though, is Lady Saltwood and her reaction to Rotherfield's proposal: "Rotherfield! A countess! You sly little puss ... I was never so happy in my life!" She is channeling Mrs. Bennett from Pride and Prejudice: "Good gracious! Lord bless me! only think! dear me! Mr. Darcy! Who would have thought it? ... Oh, my sweetest Lizzy! how rich and great you will be! ... Ten thousand a year! Oh, Lord! what will become of me? I shall go distracted."

This is one of the weakest stories, for me, mainly because it's sooooo melodramatic. I'm pretty sure, although it's been many many years, like back when I was in high school, that this plot showed up in more than one of Barbara Cartland's novels. (Don't judge.) So that is a strike against it. However, as always, anything Heyer touches is going to be elevated above the ordinary romance novel.
Helen is a great character. Like Lady Hester Theale of Sprig Muslin, she is overworked and underappreciated by her family, although Helen clearly has had to put up with much more than just being taken for granted. Although you know Heyer is never going to give any gory details, I'd love even a teeny little hint of what led to, "Do you think I would not sooner die than return to this house?" Chilling. And Ralph himself, who offers her to his drunken friends as stakes for a bet, then turns around and tries to keep her from leaving! He's a Bad Man.
Helen and Carlington = Mary and Dominic of Devil's Cub for me. She is calm, trying to make the best of a very bad situation, and, although he is dangerously wild, he never forgets that she is a lady. ((view spoiler) ) Helen goes with him willingly, as does Mary, but thinks that they really are going to get married. That applecart is upset by another unwelcome engagement, which is ended by yet another intersecting elopement! They're everywhere!

I don't even remember this story, and I can't understand why, because I just adore it. So many Heyeresque things going on here:
the economically challenged clergyman's daughter who is refreshingly unspoiled and a wonderful person (Arabella, Patience of The Nonesuch); the coach accident resulting in a broken leg and travel delays (view spoiler) ; the vulgar housekeeper marrying the elderly miser (view spoiler) .
Julian is perfect -- perhaps the most perfect Heyer hero ever created. We're told that he is accustomed to being welcomed anywhere because of his great wealth, but this does not seem to have made him cynical or embittered. He is pleasant, resourceful, and kind in looking after Sophy and her injured maid. Having someone judge him solely on his merits, not because of his title, popularity, wealth, is a new and unique experience, but he passes the test with flying colors. In an improvement over Gilly's experience in The Foundling, Julian does this without having to (view spoiler) . He only has to drive Sophy to Bath in an open carriage, in cold weather, and knock her obnoxious cousin down. (Have to say, Sophy's joy in that encounter was delightful! I was pretty happy about it too.)
Julian benefits from realizing that she likes him just fine without knowing anything about him except what she's seen in their very brief relationship. Sophy benefits from realizing, after she's agreed to let him pay his addresses to her, that this lovely man who wants to marry her, has piles of money. Win/win.

I liked this story but I didn't love it. Many elements from Sylvester:
(view spoiler) .
(Hester Theale gets much the same treatment from her family regarding Gareth in Sprig Muslin, but she (view spoiler)
The insanity angle ("roses bathed in moonlight!") is funny, but leaves Stavely in another awkward position: having to convince Papa that he should let his daughter marry a crazy man. And this is one of the quickest Insta-love (great expression!) examples in a book that's replete with them -- I mean, in Duel, Rotherfield at least takes a week to think about it, and Sir Charles doesn't make any stated declarations to Anne in Bath Miss. Oh, and Pink Domino -- how could I forget Pink Domino? But Stavely offers marriage based on less than twenty-four hours' acquaintance. Barely twelve hours, if you think about it -- he meets her for the first time at midnight, and proposes to her after breakfast the next day!

There has to be! We can't have her goi..."
So true!
Elza, you raise many valid points in your story reviews - I'd never read this collection of stories, so I guess I just suspended reality and went with the flow. In fact, in the spirit of trying to recapture the essence of fluffy romantic fun in these stories, I'm on an old Marion Chesney reread kick right now waiting to start Sylvester!

I've gotten myself out of order and can't believe I forgot to make any notes on Pink Domino. Another enjoyable but highly improbable tale of love at first sight based on absolutely nothing but physical appearance. That does *not* sound like the basis for a successful lifetime relationship, but Heyer makes you believe it.
Giles Wrexham is Charles of The Grand Sophy -- the responsible older brother who holds the purse-strings and expects to be obeyed. Letty is any number of young, headstrong young women who do not respond well to this treatment (Judith of Regency Buck, Lucilla of Lady of Quality, Eustacie of The Talisman Ring). I confess, I wasn't surprised that Giles found his sweet-faced lady at the Pantheon Ball. However, I was surprised -- shocked, really -- that he so cavalierly abandoned his quest for his sister in order to get Ruth out of there. Even though Ruth reminds him of her supposed presence, he dismisses any responsibility: "It is of no consequence ... If she is here, it is not under my protection!" That bothered me a lot, his willingness to leave his sister in what he knows to be a dangerous and compromising situation. Just doesn't ring true for the character. The fact that she isn't, in fact, there doesn't excuse him, because he doesn't know that.
In the end, though, Giles finds true love (albeit from the wrong side of the tracks) and hopefully, like Charles, learns to be a little less uptight. Letty's military man turns out to be a good guy and apparently just as much of a stickler as Giles, so everybody gets their Happily Ever After. But I'm still mad that he would go off and leave his sister!

When I read "Pink Domino" I took Giles' decision to leave Letty to her own devices at the Pantheon as weariness with her antics, disobedience etc.
However, I did find it

I completely understand that he was angry at Letty and tired of dealing with her -- but I would have thought that the treatment he rescued Ruth from, would have kept him from leaving his sister there. I mean, that's why he didn't want her to go in the first place.

I do like your comparison of Giles to Charles from tGS.

I do like your comparison of Giles to Charles from tGS."
Giles did have a good search though & neither of the other women in rose pink dominos could have been Letty. I guess it's more worrying that if Letty's swain had been a dastardly character, he could have persuaded her to elope!
I still love the scene where he arrives home. Other than (view spoiler) I don't think we ever see a Heyer hero so poleaxed!

Although we never see her, Elinor's sister Clara is obviously Selina from Black Sheep. Good thing we don't see her, because we hate her anyway ..."
hahahahaha!
You should bundle these observations together as a review Elza! Very good!!!!

This is one of the weakest stories, for me, mainly because it's sooooo melodramatic. I'm pretty sure, although it's been many many years, like back when I was in high school, that this p..."
Of course it did! Cartland was a notorious plagarist - made Gh's life a misery. Tadiana remembers reading a Cartland that ripped of The Prisoner of Zenda as well!

This is one of the weakest stories, for me, mainly because it's sooooo melodramatic. I'm pretty sure, although it's been many many years, like back when I was in high school..."
i don't think she made heyer's life a misery. heyer claimed Barbara cartland had pinched one of her plots, but i doubt it made any difference to heyer's sales. barbara cartland was staggeringly prolific - wrote hundreds and hundreds of books, and plots of romantic historcal novels are bound to occasionally resemble each other in some respect.

According to Koestler, Heyer was very angry indeed about it & some of Heyer's readers believed she was turning out cheap knock offs of her own books. Heyer finally got annoyed enough to write a letter to La Cartland & believed the plagiarised books had stopped, but The Unpredictable Bride was written a number of years after that. She mashes up elements from Arabella, Friday's Child & the Inconvenient Marriage.

According to Koestler, Heyer was very angry indeed about it & some of Heyer's readers believed she was turning out cheap knock offs of ..."
heyer may have been angry, but that doesn't mean her life was a misery. and i think certain themes are bound to crop up in romantic period novels - missing heirs, girls disguised as boys, young heroines with older wiser heroes etc, cartland may have been influenced by reading Heyer perhaps, but the number of books she wrote was so staggeringly vast, it would be surprising if some of the same themes didn't crop up in a few of them. she wrote about a book a month or something like that.

Thanks Louise but I do reserve the right to phrase things how I want.
Have you read The Unpredictable Bride? Because I have and I reread in 2015 & this was far more than being "influenced."



Thanks, Carol! I'm planning to do just that. I've commented for a while but have never posted a review, and that is something I want to start doing.
Also, I went back and added some necessary spoiler tags this morning. My apologies for not doing that when I posted -- I was in a state of euphoria resulting from my team making into the NCAA Final Four. Go Gamecocks!

Same here, never read Cartland either, I always got the impression she was regarded as a hack, and none of my romance reading friends or family ever recommended her to me so I never sought out her books. I'm not as sharp as you ladies, remembering all the plots and characters in Heyer's books, maybe because many of them I've only read once or twice over the years until now. But now that I've read Heyer, I don't think I'd waste my time with rip-offs!


Ick...

Haha! Ok, I take it back. I don't want to read them!

Thanks, Carol! I'm planning to do just that. I've commented for a while but have never posted a re..."
No need for spoiler tags in this thread (other than if you are referencing another GH book) Just clear headings. But thanks. :)
I've read about 20 Cartlands but the Unpredictable Bride was the only one I enjoyed. I also read the one where not only did she steal a lot of Heyers plot from Friday's Child - she used a lot of the names. I think when that title was republished she changed the names.
As loathsome a human as I think Cartland was, I have been collecting some of the pbs for the artwork. She ripped the artist off too! (by keeping the originals)

Elza wrote: "I do like this story, improbable as it is. Dorothea is such a sweet little heroine that I would like to believe she could make a man like Rotherfield instantly make a complete about-face in his lifestyle and character. I don't believe it, but I sure would like to.."
This really jumped out at me and I agree so completely with it. Like you, I WANTED to believe it but just couldn't. Too fast. Too much.

LOL .... yes ... the ellipses ... because none of her ... heroines ... could speak a complete ... sentence ... without ... them!

That's why they were needed!

That's why they were needed!"
*blush!* Sorry. Only Cartland i want to read is Jig-saw published when she was a young flapper. Supposed to be very different from her other books. Its available for a whopping £22 from her website.
http://www.barbaracartland.com/pages/...
2 warnings about her website;
►It is coming up as not secure for me.
► As you might expect,it is a sea of candyfloss pink.

Thanks Louise but I do reserve the right to phrase things how I want.
Have you read The Unpredictable Bride? Because ..."
Nick wrote: "Ha, I had no idea about any of this. I kind of want to read Cartland now, just to see it for myself!"
Who said you couldn't phrase things the way you wanted?
And no i haven't read The Unpredictable Bride, and don't want to. Life is too short. The only Cartland book i've read is We danced All Night, which is about life in the 1920s and is quite interesting.

Maybe you could have made it clear in your comments that you hadn't read Cartland's romances.
Cartland plagiarising Heyer is a pretty well known fact - is even on Cartland's Wikipedia page https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbara...

Well someone has grey eyes in the very first sentence - boom - GH is true to form. I didn't really enjoy this one. The two main characters were sniping at each other so the chemistry felt forced. There were strong similarities for me with the storyline of Jane Austen' persuasion. A weaker woman was talked by her family out of agreeing to marry the man she loves and lives in regret but gets a chance of reconciliation in later life. Elza I don't agree Clara is Selina. I think Selina was written to have a nice side but Clara seems despicable through and through. This also reminds me of our recent read of Lady of Quality.

This one really is unique, as others have noted, in focusing on a mature woman as the heroine. I can't think of another Heyer that has a principal love interest who is in her 30s and a parent. And she's a good parent too, which is almost as rare.
Clarissa (whose first name, interestingly, is only ever used in Part I, by her cousin) has not led a sheltered life or an easy one. We sympathize with her desire to keep Fanny from suffering disillusionment in her marriage as Clarissa apparently did in hers. She admits to "scheming ... to provide my Fanny with everything that will make her life all that mine was not."
It all makes her obvious attraction to Lord Harleston more poignant, as the husband she wants for Fanny is the husband she wishes she'd had herself -- and would like to have now! "Have you ever met any gentleman more likely to make a female happy?"
This is a particularly satisfying story for me: two happily-ever-afters, rapid resolution of the Big Misunderstanding (timing is essential -- I hate it when they go on too long), and a heroine who owns up that she has been "so absurd."
Besides, being in love with your son-in-law -- that's awkward. Not a Georgette Heyer kind of plot at all.

Things I like in this story: a young man and woman who are neither of them aristocratic, titled, or independently wealthy. Both are doing what they can, and must, to earn a living. John is, as Mr, Waggleswick puts it, "a regular noddy" but you feel sure he has learned from that mistake. Mary seems pleased enough to have secured a place that promises longevity, if not luxury. She seems equally pleased, though, to have met John.
Things I don't like: thieves' cant. Heyer loved showing it off, but I don't like it, never have, never will. That is probably the only reason I have never re-read The Corinthian. And on the Group Read of The Foundling, I remembered why I didn't like parts of that one too.
Another thing I don't like: the gruesome criminal den below the Pelican -- straight out of The Devil in the White City. Heyer didn't pull any punches on this one. They're not just being murdered, they're being chopped up and boiled, for heaven's sake! That may be all in a days' work for her mysteries, but it's not typical at all of her Regencies. The shock value is certainly effective, which may have been what she was going for. Or perhaps she was just foreshadowing Sebastian St. Cyr. *smile*

I had to come back to this one after thinking about it a little more, and it came to me that the point of this story is not about the girl. It was never about the girl. It was always about the relationship between Tom and Jack. It's a competition, and the prize is not winning the girl -- it's beating the other guy.
When push comes to shove and short tempers and wounded feelings lead to the duel -- Tom's sleepless musings are, for me, the crux of the story. How can you not be affected by Tom's desperate wish that "it had been true, and he and Jack were going to tramp off through the dewy early morning, sandwiches in their pockets, rods in their hands, creels on their backs, and nothing between them but the comfortable, idle chat of close friendship!" Maybe it's because I have two sons, but I think that's as moving a passage as Heyer ever wrote.
Suddenly being thrust into a very grown-up situation where careless words and prideful actions can have devastating consequences, two young men find themselves uncertain of how to maneuver in this strange new world of adulthood, and long to be once again those carefree boys. Sir Gavin has just the right touch in throwing them a rope, so to speak: not so old as to be fatherly, but experienced enough to set a helpful example. You know that Jack and Tom are going to be just fine, and you know that they will be friends for the rest of their lives.


Pink Domino reminded me of this advertisement which appeared in London Chronicle in 1758 for 'A young Lady who was at vauxhall on Thursday night last, in company with two Gentlemen' who had been spotted by ' a young gentleman in blue and a gold- laced hat who, being near her by the orchestra during the performance, especially the last song, gazed upon herwith the utmost attention . . . He earnestly hopes (if unmarried) she will favour him with a line directed to A.D. At the bar of the Temple exchange coffehouse, Temple-bar, to inform him whether Fortune, Family, and Character, may not entitle him, upon a further knowledge, to hope an interest in her Heart.' (quoted in a book called Shapely Ankle Preffer'd, a history of the lonely hearts advertisement)

Pink Domino reminded me of this advertis..."
Wow! I had no idea lonely hearts ads went back so far - I wonder if she answered?

Pink Domino reminded me o..."
I wonder if she answered too, and if she was unmarried. According to the author of Shapely Ankle Preferr'd, Francesca Beauman, the first advert for a spouse appeared in 1695, in one of the weekly pamphlets sold in London: 'A Gentleman about 30 years of Age, that says he had a Very Good Estate, would willingly Match himself to some Good Young Gentlewoman that has a Fortune of 3000l. or thereabouts, and he will make Settlement to Content.' The first 'Once Seen' ad appeared in the Tatler in 1709: 'A Gentleman who, on the twentieth instant, had the honour to conduct a lady out of a boat at Whitehall Stairs, desires to know where he may wait on her to disclose a matter of concern. A letter directed to Mr Samuel Reeves, to be left with Mr May at the Golden Head, the upper end of New Southampton Street, Covent Garden.'
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Did you not get the feeling that there was..."
I thought it was a definite romance-on-its-way!