Book Nook Cafe discussion
Book Buddy !
>
Ragtime ~ Feb. 2017
date
newest »
newest »
Klela wrote: "You're making me curious....I think i'll read it soon!"Great to have another ‘buddy' for this reading, Klela :)! Like Alias I’m enjoying Regtime very much. Looking forward for you comments!
Alias Reader wrote: "Chapter 19The short story by Nathaniel Hawthorne can be read online.
The Birthmark
http://www.online-literature.com/hawt..."
Chapter 16 - 19 .
Ford, as described by Doctorow, is an heartless man, looking at people as mere instrument of labour to be exploited at the highest rate, regardless of anything else. Humans are considered not even like animals, but at the same level of machines. Horrifying!!!!!
Then the author introduce Morgan, the finance giant, but also the arts and culture lover, a man of letters and research, a great personality, quite fascinating.
The meeting between the two is as a great scene, totally loved it. Ford is never intimidated by Morgan, he's cocky, don’t show any interest towards what is shown to him by the other man, but merely comments that all his years of research have been time wasted as a cheap book he read as a boy would have cover it all. I think Doctorow here makes another point on how industrialization just swapped away anything that wasn’t profit and money making. Ford is the symbol of the ‘900 successful man, with no education, no feeling but productive ideas. In this sense Morgan is already the past.
Like you Alias I am interested in read a bit more about the two men, I will check out the book you listed!
There is another point I like to raise, about Tateth and the girl. It is interesting how Ford tells Morgan that the Jews are different from the other people with regards to factory labour, just after telling us about the development in the story of the Jewish family.
When Tateth arrives in Philadelphia he tells her ‘I hate machines’. With all happening in the book he seems to be the only real fighter, escaping from the city which he feels is destroying his principles and corrupting his daughter, winning a smile back when crossing the countryside, running after a train to not abandon the girl. He’s an artist and doesn’t want to sell his soul to the cruel industrial revolution. He feels America is destroying him, but is not taking it and resolves to sell one of his silhouette books to the magic shop finding his way around it.
Doctorow writing about Tateh always underlines is love for his daughter, the way he olds her hands, his desperate attempt to make her happy and smile with the few resources he has. All the other the characters don’t seems to be able to have feelings anymore, always on the search for something to fill their empty lives. Nothing satisfies them (Houdini constant challenges, Evelyn research for lovers...) as money and fame do not cover the lack of true love.
Francesca M wrote: "Chapter 16 - 19 .
Ford, as described by Doctorow, is an heartless man, looking at people as mere instrument of labour to be exploited at the highest rate, regardless of anything else. Humans are considered not even like animals, but at the same level of machines. Horrifying!!!!!
---------------------------------
Yes. This is why I want to read more about Ford. Though I do try to keep in mind to not judge people by the standards of today. Still, Ford seems to have been a raging anti-Semite. I recall in other books that I read that he had his own newspaper that was very anti- Semitic. I don't recall if it's mentioned in Ragtime also. Here is a link I found online.
http://www.history.com/this-day-in-hi...
---------------------------------------
Francesca wrote:
Then the author introduce Morgan, the finance giant, but also the arts and culture lover, a man of letters and research, a great personality, quite fascinating.
------------------------------------
I enjoyed this meeting, too. From chapter 20 I had to look up
Rosicrucian and Hermetica. They are still and organization !
https://www.rosicrucian.org/
-------------------------------------------------
Francesca wrote:
I think Doctorow here makes another point on how industrialization just swapped away anything that wasn’t profit and money making.
-----------------------
I used to joke that when I was in school and I didn't know an answer to an essay question, I would always say the cause was the Industrial Revolution. :)
--------------------------------------------
Francesca wrote:
When Tateth arrives in Philadelphia he tells her ‘I hate machines’.
---------------
Good catch ! I missed that line.
I mentioned that I am seeing the musical version of the book later this month. My dance teacher is playing the part of Tateh !
---------------------------------
Francesca wrote:
Doctorow writing about Tateh always underlines is love for his daughter, the way he olds her hands, his desperate attempt to make her happy and smile with the few resources he has. All the other the characters don’t seems to be able to have feelings anymore, always on the search for something to fill their empty lives. Nothing satisfies them (Houdini constant challenges, Evelyn research for lovers...) as money and fame do not cover the lack of true love.
-------------
Good points. Though I do think Mother and the boy (narrator?) do stand up to Father at times. At least up to the point I've read so far. Chapter 30
Alias Reader wrote: "Francesca M wrote: "Chapter 16 - 19 .
Ford, as described by Doctorow, is an heartless man, looking at people as mere instrument of labour to be exploited at the highest rate, regardless of anyth..."
Alias wrote:
I mentioned that I am seeing the musical version of the book later this month. My dance teacher is playing the part of Tateh !
Oh great!!!! I remembered you said that. I did check if the musical was on in London and it actually is, but it ends in March and the tickets were already sold out :(...I was so disappointed, hopefully they will start a new season some time soon, I really want to go see it!
Nice to know you are a dancer Alias, I dance too street jazz and hip hop mainly, loved it so much. Do you do modern dance or classic?
------------------------------------------------------
Alias wrote
Good points. Though I do think Mother and the boy (narrator?) do stand up to Father at times. At least up to the point I've read so far. Chapter 30
I hope they will come out as rebels :), I think Mother already showed some of her character, I haven’t understood the boy much yet to be honest...I’m at chapter 22 now.
Francesca M wrote:Nice to know you are a dancer Alias, I dance too street jazz and hip hop mainly, loved it so much. Do you do modern dance or classic?I wouldn't say I am a dancer. I wish I was.
I do take absolute beginner Jazz and ballet classes at the YMCA and sometimes at other dance schools. :)
Alias Reader wrote: "Francesca M wrote:Nice to know you are a dancer Alias, I dance too street jazz and hip hop mainly, loved it so much. Do you do modern dance or classic?I wouldn't say I am a dancer. I wish I was. ..."
I’m floating between beginner and intermediate too, depending from the classes, I think I started a bit too late to be much more than that ;), but still it’s lot of fun...love to go see the shows thou, either baller or musicals, London is amazing for that, there is always so much going on!!!
Francesca, where are you in your avatar? It's looks lovely.
I’m in an art museum near Lille, France.The building used to be an Art Deco swimming pool in 1930 and was converted into a museum by Jean-Paul Philippon, the architect that has also remodeled the the Musée d’Orsay in Paris from a station into a museum.
What an incredible place!!!!
This is the link to the website if you are curios to take a look!
http://www.roubaix-lapiscine.com/le-m...
this one is in english, not sure the other is translated :)
https://www.thegoodlifefrance.com/la-...
Francesca M wrote: "I’m in an art museum near Lille, France.The building used to be an Art Deco swimming pool in 1930 and was converted into a museum by Jean-Paul Philippon, the architect that has also remodeled the..."
I could tell from just the small avatar that it was a special place. Thanks for the links.
I finished. I gave the book 4/5 rating. I thought it was pretty amazing how he was able to weave into the story all those historical figures and also have the various plots merge. Well done !
1. When the story opens, the narrator describes life in the early 1900s, noting that “There were no negroes. There were no immigrants.” Is this description accurate? What might this statement propose about the accuracy of historical accounts?For the people at the top of the economic, power, and political ladder this was true. As far as they were concerned "Negroes" and immigrants were just like a cog in the machines that Henry Ford would say are interchangeable. They were not viewed as people but something to be used. Their troubles were invisible to the people at the top because they choose not to see it.
24. Why do you think that the author chose the quotation by Scott Joplin as the novel’s epigraph? What does it signify?Do not play this piece fast. It was never right to play Ragtime fast...
Scott Joplin
I think this relates to how Doctorow told the story. It slowly unfolds until he brings all the characters together in the end. All of their individual stories make up the tapestry of that era. We get the point of view and experiences of all members of society from the street peddler to JP Morgan and all in between.
Alias Reader wrote: "I finished. I gave the book 4/5 rating. I thought it was pretty amazing how he was able to weave into the story all those historical figures and also have the various plots merge. Well done !"Well done Alias! I'm ten pages away...never hoped more for my the train to be delayed than this morning, I really didn't want to close the book to get off it and walk to work. Looking forward for my journey back home :)!
Chapters 33-34
I liked a lot chapters 33 and 34, Doctorow description of the family at the seaside really gives a picture of how a summer by the beach must have been in '900. Also, enjoyed very much the encounter of the family with Tateth and particularly the friendships between the two kids. Their natural attitutue towards life and the approach to each other without prejudices, so pure, as, unfortunately, rarely happens past young age.
Interesting also how the author indirectly describes the fall of Father, his difficulties in adapting to changes against the dynamism of Tateh. The latter, after all his suffering, has found his way and now looks at the feature hopeful, while Father is overcome by negativity and hopelessness, struggling to make any decision because worrying for more trouble rather then positive changes. He gave up! And this, I felt, is so clear in his own reflections during the baseball match. Mother is the opposite, that is why, I think, she gets close to Tateh. The storm, in this sense, is key. Mother, Tateh and the kids are at their emotional pick, Father is sleeping and totally out of the scene.
Francesca M wrote: " and particularly the friendships between the two kids."Maybe that is why some see them both as narrators.
------------------------
Francesca wrote: Interesting also how the author indirectly describes the fall of Father, his difficulties in adapting to changes against the dynamism of Tateh. The latter, after all his suffering, has found his way and now looks at the feature hopeful, while Father is overcome by negativity and hopelessness, struggling to make any decision because worrying for more trouble rather then positive changes.
------------------------
Thank you for pointing this out. I like the way you expressed this, too !
Alias wrote: Maybe that is why some see them both as narrators. Yes, after that chapter the idea started to make sense to me.
----------------------------------------------------------
Alias wrote: Thank you for pointing this out. I like the way you expressed this, too !
This is a huge compliment Alias, thanks! I’m always worried to not be able to communicate my ideas in english as I would in Italian, I am glad you like the way I expressed the concept.
By the way I just finished Ragtime. I really liked it and will give it 4 stars. It was great reading it with you too, I enjoyed our discussion a lot and hopefully we will do again it for another book soon :).
Also, please let me know how you find the show, I am really interested!
Francesca, I mean this sincerely. Until you mention it, I forget that English is not you first language. You express yourself very well. What did you think of the Coalhouse Walker story line ?
As to the play, I honestly can't imagine how this will be a musical !
I have appreciated reading the comments shared here about the book. I'll be eager to hear how they transform this into a musical, too.
Alias Reader wrote: "Francesca, I mean this sincerely. Until you mention it, I forget that English is not you first language. You express yourself very well. What did you think of the Coalhouse Walker story line ?
..."
Mmm...Coalhouse, I am glad you raise this point, Alias, as I have been wondering about it myself. I felt Doctorow introduced this story line more as an instrument to show the impact of the musician actions on other people (the whole Family, Sarah and the society in general), which is totally radical and dramatic, rather than to make the reader interested in him personally and emphatic towards his situation.
I have to say I didn’t like him since the beginning and the more was told about him, the less I felt symphathetic. We never know who really is, what was his relationship with Sarah before he came to see her at the house, we just witness the destruction he causes around him. Probably the way Doctorow intended the reader opinion to be on Coalhouse is fully described through the words of Booker Taliaferro Washington when he goes to see him in Morgan library, or at least it worked for me.
Not sure thou, my interpretation could be wrong, I also found interesting that the Italian edition cover of the book has an image of a men which clearly is meant to represent Coalhouse, so maybe I am giving him less weight than I should? I am curious to know your view on this.
Also the title, Ragtime. While reading the book I imagined it like a black and white silent movie with a ragtime sound track in the back ground and I thought it could have really worked. Ragtime is just as fast and various as the crazy development of all the story lines...what is your take on this?
madrano wrote: "I have appreciated reading the comments shared here about the book. I'll be eager to hear how they transform this into a musical, too."That is what I am so curious about too, Deb!
Francesca M wrote: "we just witness the destruction he causes around him. ."I saw the character of Coalhouse differently. The books opening line tells us it's 1902 in the U.S. The character of Coalhouse represents how people of color were treated during this period.
I didn't feel he caused destruction. He reacted to how he was treated. He felt if he worked hard and treated others with respect than that same respect would be accorded to him.
Many of the characters are put off by this proud black man. He dresses well, speaks well, has a job, some money, and he wants to do the right thing and marry the woman who had his child.
When the firefighters see a well dressed black man in a nice car, that infuriates them. Coalhouse tries to go to the law for redress to no avail. So that shows us the not only is society racist but the legal system is also biased against him. He is backed into a corner.
Should he have swallowed his pride and accepted the loss of his property? Should he have just accepted that the law was never going to be fair and just to a black person? In the end I think the character of Sarah shows it would not have helped. She does nothing wrong. Her crime is being black. So she is beaten and dies.
Coalhouse feels, in a just society, if he conducts himself in a morally and upstanding way that others should treat him that way too. He expects it. He doesn't beg for it. That he sees himself as an equal, infuriates others. We see this also the way that Father interacts with him. It's only Mother and her brother who see him as an equal.
In the end Coalhouse can't win. The road to success will always be closed to him. He becomes unhinged after Sarah's death. He pays for her funeral with the money he save for the wedding. He then goes on a killing spree. Perhaps in his mind it's a matter of all is fair in war. He feels he is at war with a racist government. In his letter of demands he calls himself the "President of the Provisional American Government". The "American Dream" will always be just that for him, a dream. So he might as well take a stand for justice. He also notes in his demands that he wants Conklin to be"turned over to my justice." Some may find his methods wrong. But really what other avenue does he have? Society and the Law have turned a blind eye. As James Baldwin said, "The most dangerous creation of any society is the man who has nothing to lose". A sentiment that is often found in literature and song.
Compare Coalhouse to Tatah. Tatah, being white, is allowed to succeed. He symbolizes the American Dream. Through hard work and persistence he rises to to the top. The road to success is open to him. Unlike the literal road Coalhouse was driving on when blocked by the firemen, that road will always be closed to him.
Anyway, that is how I interpreted it. I am not saying my way is correct, it's just my interpretation.
Francesca M wrote: "Also the title, Ragtime. While reading the book I imagined it like a black and white silent movie with a ragtime sound track in the back ground and I thought it could have really worked. Ragtime is just as fast and various as the crazy development of all the story lines...what is your take on this? "I think the title also shows the importance of Coalhouse in the novel.
Ragitme is a "genre has its origins in African-American communities."
Here are the songs Coalhouse plays in chapter 21.
Maple Leaf Rag Played by Scott Joplin
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pMAtL...
Scott Joplin - Wall Street Rag
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nA766...
I wanted to thank you for reading the book with me, Francesca. I hope you enjoyed it, too.I am still trying to figure out why Houdini was in the story. His plot was interesting. I'm just not sure if the author was using him to say something about the era.
Anyway, it was a good read. :)
Curiously, it was the Houdini part i seem to recall best. I wonder if that is because i kept trying to figure out why he was there.I'm liked reading the discussion shared here. Thanks for sharing!
Alias Reader wrote: "I wanted to thank you for reading the book with me, Francesca. I hope you enjoyed it, too.I am still trying to figure out why Houdini was in the story. His plot was interesting. I'm just not sure..."
I really enjoyed the book too Alias and read it together made it even more satisfying. Sorry for late replay I was in Paris these last few days and I neglected GR a bit!
The Houdini story line was one of my favorites since the beginning of the book. The endless research for new challenges that never seems to fulfill his expectation or the satisfaction he would like to get out of his ventures, but that in the end does not come, sounds so familiar... I also enjoyed his own reflection on the society, although he kind of fits within it, he is a famous and successful man, he also realizes the cruelty of the '900 century world and the superficiality of many around him. When the mother dies, he seems totally lost and alone in a world where there is no affection and where, in the end, he is no less an outsider than the dwarfs he meet in the rich lady's house party. I think Houdini is the deepest and complex character of the whole book.
About previous comment o the Coalhouse story-line, I do agree with your points nearly on everything, it is a strong and truthful picture of the condition of black people at the time, unfortunately. Still I am a great believer that violence is always wrong, and as much as I can totally understand Coalhouse feelings and his rage in being subjected to injustices and unfair treatments , I can't say I feel he's done the right thing.
Francesca M wrote: "I was in Paris these last few days and I neglected GR a bit!."
Nice !
I agree. Houdini was an interesting character. I think he reflected the times well.
I thought it was really amazing how the author had all the various story lines going to show us that period in time. Well done.
Thanks for reading the book with me. Having someone to share the experience with made it even more enjoyable.
I'll probably see the musical either this or next weekend. I'll let you know how it goes.
D
I saw the musical this afternoon and it was really good. It was done by a local amateur theater group. The singing and the acting were top notch. And it stayed true to the book.
Alias Reader wrote: "I saw the musical this afternoon and it was really good. It was done by a local amateur theater group. The singing and the acting were top notch. And it stayed true to the book."Thanks for your feedback Alias. I will definitely check out when the show is back in London, so curious to see this book translated into a musical!!!
There are videos clips on YouTube. Here is one.
Ragtime (1998 Original Broadway Cast) - Tony Awards
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=228R4...
Looks very cool!!! Thank you for sharing it Alias.
Neat, Alias. Glad you shared this experience. And thanks for the link...it hadn't occurred to me to check it out on YouTube.
I really liked how they showed the 3 different groups. (people of color, upper class, and immigrants) to help define the era. Also the songs with that ragtime beat are quite catchy.It's funny one person and myself that read the book didn't cry. I guess because we knew what was going to happen. However, the other two people I was with did cry.
It's really a very moving and well done show. If it ever comes back to Broadway it's one I would want to see. Though this amateur production was top notch. And my dance teacher had the lead ! He played Tatah. :)
Neat about your dance teacher. It's interesting that the two of you who knew what was coming didn't cry. Sometimes that anticipation can push one into tears when it finally arrives.
madrano wrote: "Neat about your dance teacher. It's interesting that the two of you who knew what was coming didn't cry. Sometimes that anticipation can push one into tears when it finally arrives."It's interesting that I cry way too easily watching TV, movies and reading books. But I seldom cry in the theater. Tear up a bit but not really cry. I really only recall one time I did and that was watching the brilliant Brian Dennehy play the lead in Death of a Salesman
Though I didn't cry when reading Ragtime either. lol
I did get goose bumps though many times when the actors sang. They had very moving and beautiful voices.
I'm trying to remember if i've cried at a live performance. Surely i have. The first movie where i cried was Shenandoah, of all things. When the lights came up i noticed many around me were also in tears, which made my 13 year old self feel better about it.
Book Nook Cafe
Books mentioned in this topic
Death of a Salesman (other topics)The Tycoons: How Andrew Carnegie, John D. Rockefeller, Jay Gould and J.P. Morgan Invented the American Supereconomy (other topics)
The Robber Barons (other topics)
American Colossus: The Triumph of Capitalism, 1865-1900 (other topics)
Thomas Alva Edison: Great American Inventor (other topics)
More...
Authors mentioned in this topic
Nathaniel Hawthorne (other topics)Matthew Josephson (other topics)
Charles R. Morris (other topics)
H.W. Brands (other topics)
Michael Burgan (other topics)
More...
Isn't that the way? I suspect that truly strong nonfiction lends itself to that but when a novel does the same thing, it's neat. I have a couple of the books you listed on my TBR but don't see myself getting around to them anytime soon. Bummer.
Elsewhere i mentioned visiting LBJ's ranch. I must say that when we visit presidential homes & birthplaces i always end up with a list of books i want to read. Usually i'll purchase one at the site, then check the library for the others. It's kinda fun to see where we run into titles to add to our list, imo.
Shomeret, you make a good point about anthologies. I don't take advantage of them often enough.