WE ARE OPEN - WEEK ONE - SPQR - A HISTORY OF ANCIENT ROME - WEEK ONE - April 17th - April 23rd - Prologue: The History of Rome and Chapter One: Cicero's Finest Hour - (pages 15 - 52) ~ No Spoilers, Please

[Cynthia]

Hi! I'm Cynthia from Maryland. This is my first time in an online book discussion group. I read this book last year, but will enjoy revisiting it. It's a great read and packed with information. I promise not to reveal any spoilers!

[Vicki, Assisting Moderator - Ancient Roman History]

Mary wrote: "Hello all, my name is Mary and I live in South Carolina. Roman history is one of my history enthusiasms. I'm fascinated by the conflicts of the ruling class - never a dull moment."

Welcome, Mary. I hope you're enjoying the book.

[Vicki, Assisting Moderator - Ancient Roman History]

Cynthia wrote: "Hi! I'm Cynthia from Maryland. This is my first time in an online book discussion group. I read this book last year, but will enjoy revisiting it. It's a great read and packed with information. I p..."

Greetings, Cynthia. We look forward to your comments. Maybe a second read will incite a deeper understanding.

[Marianne]

My name is Marianne and I live in New York City. I am a nurse practitioner who made it all through undergraduate and graduate school taking the minimum amount history and literature courses required for graduation...mostly survey courses. I am trying to catch up. I have been reading biographies of American presidents and lots and lots of Churchill. I find the History of Ancient Rome challenging. After reading the first assignment, I feel like Ancient Rome is the calculus of history. You can't understand calculus until you understand algebra and trigonometry. Likewise, I don't think I can understand this ancient history because I know little about Latin, classical literature, philosophy and history. I will work at it, however. I assume there may be other neophytes out there who are curious.

[Rafael]

Hi, my name is Rafael from Germany and this is my first group read too. I love history since high school, although I've chosen a Bachelor course not so related with History, I keep reading about it ever since. I love all types of History but I mostly read about Ancient History and Medieval European History. I read quite a bit about the Etruscans a year ago, but it's been a while since I've read something just about Rome. I'm loving the book so far, btw.

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Karen wrote: "Vicki,

I am so glad you mentioned Addison's play Cato. When it was mentioned in Chernow's book on George Washington I had to read it."

Karen, you need to do citations for books that are not being discussed:

by Ron Chernow

by Joseph Addison

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Vicki wrote: "Steven wrote: "Hello, I'm Steven from Chicago, Illinois. I am a history aficionado but primarily focus on United States history but have more than a passing interest in 20th Century African history..."

Vicki, in the book discussion you do not have to cite the book or the author being discussed or personages in the book but citing books, works or authors outside the scope of the reading or in references to other readings must be cited - please help the readers who might not cite in error as well - thanks in advance.

Livy

[Boris]

Vicki wrote: "Beard tells us that is was very expensive to run for office, but doesn't give details. I have read that bribery, i.e. buying votes, was common though illegal. I wonder if you also had to pay for vo..."

Later in the book Mary Beard gives a very insightful breakdown of Cicero's and other senators' income. The main sources seem to be produce from large estates, income from (exploiting) the provinces and - for successfull generals like Ceasar and Pompey - conquest. One thing these sources had in common that they were all controlled by a very small elite. The vast majority of people were excluded from the riches of the empire. The common farmers that founded Rome gained little and even the soldiers had a hard time making a living after they retired from the army. It was not a sustainable situation and it is not for nothing that the senators were terrified by people that could appeal to the masses (like the Gracchus brother) or could build their own independent power base (like Catiline or Caesar).

[Karen]

Bentley wrote: "Karen wrote: "Vicki,

I am so glad you mentioned Addison's play Cato. When it was mentioned in Chernow's book on George Washington I had to read it."

Karen, you need to do citations for books tha..."

Oops, I forgot, added

[Vicki, Assisting Moderator - Ancient Roman History]

Marianne wrote: "My name is Marianne and I live in New York City. I am a nurse practitioner who made it all through undergraduate and graduate school taking the minimum amount history and literature courses require..."

Welcome, Marianne. You may be right - diving into Cicero/Catilina can feel a bit overwhelming. Hopefully as we go back to the origins in the subsequent chapters, it will be a bit more comfortable.

[Vicki, Assisting Moderator - Ancient Roman History]

Rafael wrote: "Hi, my name is Rafael from Germany and this is my first group read too. I love history since high school, although I've chosen a Bachelor course not so related with History, I keep reading about it..."

Greetings, Rafael. I hope you'll like being in a group read. And we'll be meeting some Etruscans in a couple of weeks.

[Vicki, Assisting Moderator - Ancient Roman History]

Boris wrote: "Later in the book Mary Beard gives a very insightful breakdown of Cicero's and other senators' income. The main sources seem to be produce from large estates..."

Thanks for that, Boris. It should be interesting when we come to the Gracchi brothers. Actually, all the eras of Roman history are interesting.

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Karen wrote: "Bentley wrote: "Karen wrote: "Vicki,

I am so glad you mentioned Addison's play Cato. When it was mentioned in Chernow's book on George Washington I had to read it."

Karen, you need to do citation..."


No problem - it is easy to - therefore the reminder for you.

[Michele]

I got my hands on this book:

by Lesley Adkins

Its not a "read straight though book." Its a reference book, an encyclopedia. I plan on using it in conjunction with SPQR.

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Very good Michelle and thank you for doing the citation perfectly

[MicheleR]

Boris wrote: "Vicki wrote: "Beard tells us that is was very expensive to run for office, but doesn't give details. I have read that bribery, i.e. buying votes, was common though illegal. I wonder if you also had..."

Fascinating insights, Boris. Glad you're part of the discussion.

[Vicki, Assisting Moderator - Ancient Roman History]

Vicki wrote: "Discussion Topics:

2. Why didn't Catilina have money? He had been governor of Africa province for 2 years. Wasn't there loot in Africa?"

I keep wondering about this. He apparently had married a wealthy woman. He was brought to trial by a delegation from Africa claiming various abuses during his term as propraetor. He was acquitted so perhaps he bribed the judges. Or maybe, like Caesar, he had thrown expensive entertainments during his term as aedile and borrowed to pay for them.

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Boris wrote: "Vicki wrote: "Beard tells us that is was very expensive to run for office, but doesn't give details. I have read that bribery, i.e. buying votes, was common though illegal. I wonder if you also had..."

Be careful Boris - do not go ahead of the assigned reading on this thread or allude to what is coming up - this is a non spoiler weekly thread and only pages up through page 52 can be discussed here. If you want discuss other things or sidebars then post on a spoiler thread which could be either the glossary, bibliography or Book as Whole thread - Vicki will respond there. No spoilers here.

[Marianne]

What is a "consulship"? Is it like a President, Senate Majority Leader, or Speaker of the House, like we have in the US? The position must have been very important if Catiline and Cicero were prepared to throw Rome into chaos fighting over it.

[Marianne]

Vicki wrote: "David wrote: "Hello everyone, my name is David. I live in suburban WashDC, via New York City, 2 modern Romas. I began to be interested in history maybe 10-20 years ago, who remembers. At the very b..."

I found references to Cato in David McCullough's 1776. David McCullough

[Vicki, Assisting Moderator - Ancient Roman History]

Cicero accuses Catilina

Discussion Topics:

Cicero insisted on executing the conspirators still in Rome.

1. Couldn't some of the senators strongly against Catilina have kept these men confined to their own houses so that they couldn't have joined Catilina in the field? Once Catilina was defeated, they could then be exiled.

2. Suppose they did leave Rome to join him. Would that have made Catilina's forces so much stronger? Did they have soldiers as clients who would have gone with them to join Catilina?

[Vicki, Assisting Moderator - Ancient Roman History]

Roman senate in session

Discussion Topics:

Catilina campaigned for consul on the promise of cancelling debts.

1. How could he have gotten such a law passed? Would a majority of senators have voted for this? Possibly the Assembly would have ratified it, being more representative of "the people".

2. Would such a promise even have gotten him elected, given that elections weren't "one man, one vote" but were weighted heavily to the upper classes?

[Aparajita]

Hi,

Aparajita from India here. Have been a history buff since my teenage years. Have recently developed a fascination for antiquity, ever since my visit to Turkey two years ago.
Been interested in ancient Rome since I started reading Lindsey Davis' Falco series. Their society, administration and concerns seemed very contemporary, in a way that reading about medieval or immediate post medieval societies do not. Reading the first chapter of this book, I also started doing a lot of background reading on Wikipedia , and this struck me yet again- a democratic and discursive system of government, a plethora of checks and balances at least theoretically built in, high levels of literacy and erudition(in this they seem more advanced than us) required in politicians, urban societies, apartments etc.

[Aparajita]

Vicki wrote: "Roman senate in session

Discussion Topics:

Catilina campaigned for consul on the promise of cancelling debts.

1. How could he have gotten such a law passed? Would a majority of senators have vot..."

Does not seem likely as a consuls were elected by the Comitia Centuriata , from what I understand which was basically an aristocratic group.
Interesting that Cicero who was an advocate of "Liberties", a constitutionalist and against autocratic government would on the other hand uphold traditional values in this respect.

[Vicki, Assisting Moderator - Ancient Roman History]

Aparajita wrote: "Hi,

Aparajita from India here. Have been a history buff since my teenage years. Have recently developed a fascination for antiquity, ever since my visit to Turkey two years ago.
Been interested i..."

Welcome, Aparajita. There are sure lots of ancient sites to visit in Turkey.

When you mention a book, you need to do the citation as detailed in our guidelines at
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

Like so:
by Lindsey Davis

[Michele]

Marianne wrote: "What is a "consulship"? Is it like a President, Senate Majority Leader, or Speaker of the House, like we have in the US? The position must have been very important if Catiline and Cicero were prepa..."

A consul was the highest elected political office of the Roman Republic. Each year, two consuls were elected together, to serve for a one-year term. Which means that there really is no modern equivalent. Consuls were elected by an assembly; ruled as chief executives for one year and were responsible for war, justice, and finance.

[Donald]

Marianne wrote: "What is a "consulship"? Is it like a President, Senate Majority Leader, or Speaker of the House, like we have in the US? The position must have been very important if Catiline and Cicero were prepa..."

The consulships were the closest equivalent of the president in that both executed executive power, had some veto rights and generally held responsibility for similar areas as the president does today - diplomacy, military, and execution of acts of parliament/equivalent.

There are obvious non-similarities as well though, such as the single one year term, the existence of two consuls, their election by the assembly, and their ability to veto one another.

[Vicki, Assisting Moderator - Ancient Roman History]

Thanks, Michele and Donald for your comments on consuls.

Also, check out this glossary entry:
Cursus honorum

[Vicki, Assisting Moderator - Ancient Roman History]

The week 2 thread is now open. We'll be discussing the two origin myths about Rome.

Here's the link to week 2.
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

[Ian]

Hello, my name is Ian and I live in Southern California. I first became interested in Roman history in my early twenties when I read Livy's History of Rome. I was amazed at the Roman people's ability to survive defeat after defeat and triumph in the end (e.g. the war against Hannibal). I have continued my interest over the succeeding decades...

In regard Bevan's questions above - these focus on some of the most important and contentious questions in Roman history writing. On the first question, there are many different views, from seeing Rome as a narrow oligarchy to a broad democracy. I'd post more, but don't want spoilers...

[Vicki, Assisting Moderator - Ancient Roman History]

Ian wrote: "Hello, my name is Ian and I live in Southern California. I first became interested in Roman history in my early twenties when I read Livy's History of Rome. I was amazed at the Roman people's abili..."

Welcome, Ian, we're glad you are joining the conversation. The determination of the Romans not to give up is demonstrated time after time, as we will see when we get further into the book.

Also, when you mention a book, you need to do the citation as detailed in our guidelines at
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

by Livy

[Vicki, Assisting Moderator - Ancient Roman History]

Sandy wrote: "Hi everyone. I'm Sandy, joining in the reading from Nova Scotia (Canada). I apologize for being late. (I am already a week behind.) I have developed an interest in history only recently, quite late..."

Greetings, Sandy. It's never too late to join a book discussion. Sorry you're a bit baffled - hopefully you will settle in as we proceed through the book.

[Vicki, Assisting Moderator - Ancient Roman History]

@Marianne – message 70

Roman consuls were elected for a term of one year and served in pairs. The office was the culmination of a man's political career. Once you were elected consul, your family was ennobled, which was very important for a “new man” like Cicero.

Check out this glossary entry:
Roman political offices

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Folks - week two has been open since Monday and here is the link if you lost your way - you can join week two as you are ready with your reading>

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

Assigned pages for Week Two are 52 through 90.

[Stormie ~ Book Dragon ~]

Hello all, I am Stormie and I currently live in Apple Valley, CA. I am a History buff, and not sure I would call myself a Historian as I don't have the degree to back it up...but I do work(volunteer) in a museum that relates to the history of Apple Valley and also Roy Rogers and Dale Evans, as they lived here from 1965 until they passed. My favorite areas are Ancient Civilizations and the American Civil War (I was born in Fredericksburg, VA and lived in Spotsylvania, VA, two of the (many) main battlefields in VA.) I am a few months late in getting back to the game, I just got the book from the library, so I will be playing catch up. :)

[Vicki, Assisting Moderator - Ancient Roman History]

Welcome to the book discussion, Stormie. We'll be interested in hearing what you think of the different chapters. Please feel free to post at any time.