The Subtle Knife by Philip Pullman -> Start Date March 16th 2017

[Haley]

A buddy read for The Subtle Knife!

[Kikijanika]

Awesome! Can't wait :)

[C-shaw]

I'm in! How does this work? Do we just start reading 3/16 and post comments about our progress? I have all three of the "His Dark Materials" novels, have only read _The Golden Compass_ some time ago, but I really loved it and have intended to get back to the series. Here's my impetus!

[Haley]

Yay!! Yeah you pretty much just start around the starting date and just post your updates and thoughts on the book.

[C-shaw]

In the meantime, I'm going to re-read the first book to refresh my memory.

[Kikijanika]

Awesome! Welcome C-shaw ☺

[C-shaw]

Thanks! _The Golden Compass_ is just as good the second time around. (I read it in 2015 and have read hundreds of books since then, so really needed to refresh my memory.) I'm reading furiously in order to finish it before our 3/16 start date for the second novel.

[Kikijanika]

Good luck! I hope you can finish it ☺

[C-shaw]

I presume you have read _The Golden Compass_, Kikijanika and Haley. One thing I kept wondering is whether the daemons ever ate or drank. I don't remember any reference to it from the first reading, and so far haven't seen it in second reading. (I'm on Page 188 of 351.)

[Haley]

I don't remember them referencing that they ate or drank. I'm not sure if they ever needed to, but they are connected to the person so I feel they should have to. That's a really good question.

[Kikijanika]

Yes I've read it. I never came to wonder about that but now when you point that out, I don't remember it ever being mentioned

[C-shaw]

Maybe the host's ingestion sustains them???

[Kikijanika]

Haha :D That's possible!

[C-shaw]

Almost done ahead of time: I only have about 14 pages to go, will finish tonight!

[Kikijanika]

Awesome! Good job

[Kikijanika]

I'll start this one tonight :) How about you guys?

[C-shaw]

I've started it. How shall we discuss? There are 15 chapters and an appendix. Perhaps after three chapters, which are fairly long??Or on a certain day?? I have finished three chapters (70 pages), am open to any suggestions ya'll have.

[C-shaw]

For our discussion, one of my Goodreads friends sent me this message about the series:

"The first book gave me nightmares. That does not happen! When I heard in an interview that his motivation in writing it was to convince kids not to believe in God, I began to understand the bad dreams."

[C-shaw]

Here is some info from Pullman's Amazon page:

"It has recently been announced that The Book of Dust, the much anticipated new book from Mr. Pullman, also set in the world of His Dark Materials, will be published as a major work in three parts, with the first part to arrive in October 2017.

"Philip Pullman is the author of many other much-lauded novels. Other volumes related to His Dark Materials: Lyra’s Oxford, Once Upon a Time in the North, and The Collectors. For younger readers: I Was a Rat!; Count Karlstein; Two Crafty Criminals; Spring-Heeled Jack, and The Scarecrow and His Servant. For older readers: the Sally Lockhart quartet: The Ruby in the Smoke, The Shadow in the North, The Tiger in the Well, and The Tin Princess; The White Mercedes; and The Broken Bridge.

"Philip Pullman lives in Oxford, England. To learn more, please visit philip-pullman.com and hisdarkmaterials.com. Or follow him on Twitter at @PhilipPullman."

Have either of you read any of his other books?

[Haley]

Oh yeah I saw that! I was thinking about preordering it, but I'm just going to wait. I'm going to start the book tomorrow!

[Kikijanika]

That looks interesting. I haven't read anything else from Pullman but I'd like to. What your friend said about the 1st book and children believing in God, I can quite believe when thinking about how the church is such a dark institution in these books. And especially now that (view spoiler)[Thorold insinuated that Lord Asriel perhaps wants to destroy The Authority, that basically seems to be their god. (hide spoiler)] Or maybe not to prevent them from believing but at least to make them think more critically about religion.

Writing after 3 chapters is ok for me. I've read 2 chapters and I'm just about to start chapter 3.

[Kikijanika]

I've read the first 4 chapters now. So far I feel like this sequel might be even better than the first book. I think the concept of (view spoiler)[skipping between worlds is interesting but I'm completely confused when it comes to people and worlds and events and dust. Like how are Will and his father connected to dust and to Lyra's story, for instance? And is Lord Asriel really a hero or a villain and is he really trying to destroy The Authority? And does the authority have something to do with dust? And I'm still not sure whether dust is something that's good or something that's bad. I'd guess good. Think I need to read on if I want to get some answers (hide spoiler)]

[Kikijanika]

I just finished chapter 6.
I wonder if (view spoiler)[ the spectres are some form of dust, too. (hide spoiler)]

This story seems to get new dimensions all the time...(view spoiler)[new worlds..now angels...I wonder what's next. I also wonder why the angels would follow Lord Asriel's call. He's just a human after all. I'd also like to know whether Ruta has her own agenda of some kind, although she seems trustworthy to me. (hide spoiler)]

[C-shaw]

You are just whizzing through, Kikijanika! I really like Will and am intrigued by his story. No, I couldn't imagine how he and Lyra could be connected, but it's interesting what is happening between them. I am befuddled about dust. Do you think Will's cat will become his daemon through dust?
Haley, spoiler ahead:


As a devout Christian, I was dismayed to read about The Authority being God and Lord Asriel's determination to kill Him. Pullman seems to have an axe to grind with the Catholic church! The story is good and I will keep reading, but I am unhappy with the not-so-subtle anti-religious aspects.
Did you notice that Lyra's daemon stuck his paw in the omelet egg batter and tasted it?

[Kikijanika]

Haha :) I've got a day off from work so I'm trying to read as much as possible :)

I never thought about (view spoiler)[ the cat becoming a daemon but I guess it could happen. At least, I think he'll have some part to play in the story. I missed the part about Pantalaimon tasting the omelet but I noticed he was picking at eggshells :D (hide spoiler)]

I agree with what you said about (view spoiler)[ the story being anti-religious. I'm not very religious myself so it does not bother me but I can imagine it not sitting well with everybody. But who knows how the story will progress...perhaps The Authority will win in the end and Lord Asriel will become a convert. Although, if it's true what your friend wrote about Pullman's motives, then I doubt it. I hope you can enjoy the story, nonetheless. (hide spoiler)]

[C-shaw]

Kikijanika wrote: "I just finished chapter 6.
I wonder if [spoilers removed]

This story seems to get new dimensions all the time...[spoilers removed]"

I love Ruta, love the witch angle!

[C-shaw]

Kikijanika wrote: "Haha :) I've got a day off from work so I'm trying to read as much as possible :)

I never thought about [spoilers removed]

I agree with what you said about [spoilers removed]"
Thanks. I'm getting more nervous after reading your comments about angels joining the story. I'll read more tonight, try to catch up with you.

Where are you Haley??

[C-shaw]

The idea of personal (helpful) daemons such as Pantalaimon is interesting for a purely fantasy story though. What kid wouldn't want to have a live teddy bear, so to speak, who could talk to them and change form?

[Kikijanika]

C-shaw wrote: "The idea of personal (helpful) daemons such as Pantalaimon is interesting for a purely fantasy story though. What kid wouldn't want to have a live teddy bear, so to speak, who could talk to them an..."
Yeah, I would have loved one as a kid

[C-shaw]

Remember that the alethiometer in Lyra's world required long study of a book for the Scholars to use? Then in Chapter 4 it is compared to the I Ching? I'm not very familiar with the I Ching, but plan to Google it. I suspect it requires long experience and study to use and it may be the alethiometer of Will's world.

[C-shaw]

Oh yes, there is definitely a connection between the alethiometer and the I Ching. But both are forms of divination and thus evil in the eyes of God. Sheesh. This book is getting more and more uncomfortable for me. I thought it was just a goofy fantasy story, but there are insidious anti-Christian aspects! Luckily I am very strong in my faith and can see through Pullman's devices.

[Kikijanika]

My granny used to have a book of I-ching. I don't know where she got it. Her house is full of books. We used to use I-ching for fun as kids with my sister. It was kind of like telling the future with coins or getting answers to your questions by flicking coins and then interpreting the book accordingly. Kind of similar to the alethiometer now when you pointed out :) I'm sorry this book is so distressing for you. I hope you can think of it only as a fantasy story and try to ignore the things that have to do with religion.

[C-shaw]

I am thinking of it as pure fantasy and I am enjoying the story so far.

What do you think about the fact that daemons are always the opposite sex of their hosts? Is that some yin and yang thing? Philip Pullman has some very Asian-influenced beliefs.

When I said I loved the witch Ruta Skadi, I meant Serafina Pekkala. She's about my favorite character so far! I suppose Will and Iorek Byrnison are tied for second favorites.

Have you read _The Red Heir_? Weird: When I read in Chapter 6 about walking through doors to other worlds with or without locks, it paralleled so much the early part of _The Red Heir_, which I am reading at the same time as this book!

I'm on Chapter 8, about halfway through.

Where, oh where, is Haley??

[Haley]

Sorry! Last minute planning to go to Disney, but I'm going to still read while I'm here!

[Kikijanika]

oh..have a great time in Disney! Hope you get some reading done there ☺

I have not read The red heir. Is it good? Serafina Pekkala is one of my favorite characters as well! When it comes to the gender of the demons, I never really thought about it but I guess there is some meaning behind it. Could very well be the yin and yang...demons and their humans are supposed to complete each other after all.

I just finished chapter 11. I meant to write earlier but got carried away. Anyway, I feel like (view spoiler)[ Will's and Lyra's chances for completing their mission are much better now when they've got the subtle knife. But I wonder what is the task that the bearer must undertake that Grumman was talking about. I also wonder what he'll think when he'll find out the bearer is his own son. (hide spoiler)]

And yeah...(view spoiler)[ I always got the feeling that Will's father will turn out to be someone we already know somehow. Actually I'm not so surprised it was Grumman because he got lost in the north just line Will's father. I just didn't think it could be him because their names were different but now that's explained. I'm also happy to hear Will's father didn't just abandon his family and that he's not in any great danger. (hide spoiler)]

I'm glad Lyra and Will (view spoiler)[got the alethiometer back. But mrs Coulter seems to be on their geels again. I wonder if they'll face each other still in this book. (hide spoiler)]

[C-shaw]

Not reading your spoilers yet because I'm on Chapter 10. I'm blown away about Dr. Grumman!!!! Yikes. Guess I'll finish the book tonight.

Haley, I don't know if you've been to Disney World before, but you'll likely be too worn out at the end of each day to read. Have a wonderful time and don't read our spoilers until you get farther along in the book. I'm so glad you're joining us after all.

[Kikijanika]

I'm now done with chapter 13 and I hope to finish the book after work today.

I wonder if (view spoiler)[ Will will find his father in this book or in the next one. Because I'm hoping the third book won't focus only on the war...that might be boring. (hide spoiler)]

I'm a bit confused now...or should I say again, about dust. (view spoiler)[ Dust is angels? But what about those angels the witches saw? Are they then dust, too? Or are they made of the spirit that is dust or something? I don't know...so confusing! (hide spoiler)]

[C-shaw]

I finished the book this afternoon, will comment later after I try to absorb it. All in all, the adventure part is very good, but that good vs. evil stuff is horse crap.

Do you want to buddy read the third book? I have it, so now would be a good time for me to read it while the storyline is fresh on my mind.

[Kikijanika]

I finished, too.
I kind of liked the ending. It left many things open for the third book. (view spoiler)[ So many people seem to be dying, though I wonder if all of them are really dead or will stay dead. And of course the witches are not actually dead. Just devoured by the spectres. I did not expect Lee to die but I expected Grumman's/Parry's death even less. I thought there'd be a happy reunion for him and Will. (hide spoiler)]

I wonder if Lyra (view spoiler)[ was taken to her mother or if she perhaps escaped. I guess she was taken captive because I don't think she would have left the alethiometer behind otherwise. (hide spoiler)]

I'd like to read the 3rd book but I must finish some library books first. Perhaps some time in April?

[Haley]

I'm finally reading!! I should be able to read most today and finish the rest tomorrow!

[Haley]

To chapter 5 (view spoiler)[ I wonder what Will's father has to do with Lyra's story, but I'm sure it connects. It's interesting reading about how Lyra can jump worlds although it's confusing with the dust/particles. There's so many questions I have about Lord Asriel and him wanting to destroy the Authority. I just hope the next few chapters will answer them for me. (hide spoiler)]

[Haley]

To chapter 8 (view spoiler)[ I've been reading your spoilers as I read and I like how the demons are the opposite sex, but then again I do find that odd it makes sense for the yin and yang. I'm not enjoying this book as much as the first, but there's still the rest of the book to go through. I don' enjoy the religious views Phillip keeps bringing up and I never though that this book would be filled with them. I wonder how the old man plays a part in the story with him stealing Lyra's alethiometer and making a trade with the knife. (hide spoiler)]

[Haley]

To chapter 12 (view spoiler)[ I can't believe Mrs. Coulter found her! I didn't think she could travel worlds. It surprised me that she had guards without any demons. I find the spectre's interesting and how they allow the children to pass through and not the adults, but it's because of their dust settlement on the demons. I'll probably be able to finish this book today! (hide spoiler)]

[Haley]

finished (view spoiler)[ I didn't like this book as much as I thought I would. I can't believe Will met his dad and he was just killed right in front of him. I wonder why Lord Asriel needs him and where Lyra went. I have a feeling she was captured by someone because she wouldn't leave her alethiometer behind. I'm still confused about the dust, but at least we have the angels more explained. (hide spoiler)] Thank you for buddy reading, sorry I was late. I'll be picking up the 3rd book asap and will probably start reading it in about 2 days.

[Kikijanika]

I'm glad to see you finished this, too ☺ I didn't expect the story to be built so much around religion, either. It did not really bother me but it was different from what I expected. I still have so many questions about dust and other things. Hopefully the third book will answer them. And don't worry about being late. It's still nice to read your thoughts! Hope you'll like the third book better than this one ☺

[C-shaw]

Well Haley, we can buddy read it together and Kikijanika may join us the first of April. I'll likely start in a day or so. I finally finished the nearly 1000-pg. book I was reading, but I'm still reading _The Red Heir_ (pretty good, but not my type of book - those who like _Mistborn_ would enjoy it) and just started cozy mystery _Leave No Stone Unturned_, which is good. I'd like to finish those before starting yet another.

No need for spoilers, so. . . Yes, I was so shocked to find out Grumman was Will's father, and equally so that he was killed just as they met. I was dismayed that the spectres got the witches, whom I love. I no longer even care about the stupid dust and I found the stuff about the angels to be ridiculous. And is Lord Asriel good or bad? Depends on your point of view, it seems.

I think Mrs. Coulter nabbed Lyra, who deliberately left the altheiometer behind for Will to find. I did not like this book as much as I did the first one, but will read the last episode in order to find out what happens. I think it got better reviews than this book. I hope the bears show up again.

I'm glad I read it, though don't at all like Pullman's digs at religion. I'm not Catholic, but he seems so bummed out at the Catholic religion in particular. Was he forced to serve as an altar boy? Was he molested by a priest? Did his mama make him say his rosary on his knees when he was bad? Hmmm.

[C-shaw]

Kikijanika and Haley, it's been fun buddy reading with you. I've never done a buddy read before and since I live a fairly solitary life with mostly farming guys who don't read much to talk to, it's been so interesting to see reading girls' comments. Thanks for the experience, sweeties!

[Kikijanika]

You're welcome ☺ It's been fun reading with you, too!