Beta Reader Group discussion
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Beta for Plot and structure
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For me, I make comments as I go. I want to mimic a true reader's experience, and a regular reader probably won't be as thorough as we writers! But after my initial gut impressions, I go back and think about how to improve the book overall, and write a "report" at the end of the document. What a lot of authors don't do and I wish they did was ask questions. In mine, I ask guided questions every third chapter or so that I'm dying to know (how do you feel about the MC? Do you think the characters are changing over time?). That way, regardless of if a first time reader or a seasoned reader is beta-ing my work, I can at least get the answers to the burning questions. Sometimes I don't know what kind of critique authors are looking for, so questions during the actual reading would be helpful.
I do both, and a tinsy bit of editing. As an editor, I, like you remove myself from overall like or dislike until I've read through the work, but also highlight points that really turn me off of a manuscript. Readers are strongly connected to the books they read Beta or no (or not at all in the case of poor fits or poor manuscripts), and many of them pick out grammar, punctuation, and some can be turned off by a number of editorial errors (but a manuscript should be very well edited before it goes to a Beta - I also offer Alpha Reading and Developmental editing so manuscripts are in raw forms for those). I think most readers do and should focus on plot structure and plot holes. Those are, as you say, some of the biggest elements that need to be solidified within a manuscript. There are merits in both methods. I always go for a balanced approach.
The thing is many writers don't understand the mechanics of storytelling--at least not when it comes to narrative structure and character development. But many of them get by because they've been devouring stories through books and other forms of media ever since childhood and subconsciously have learned how to do it even if they can't tell you how they do it. You don't have to tell most writers that a story should have a proper beginning, middle, and end. But do they really understand what that means?That's where I agree that having a beta reader who understands narrative structure is so helpful. They can identify the shortcomings in a story the same way an architect can spot flaws in a building's construction.
What happens more often than not is that a writer sees the whole story in his head and doesn't translate it to paper, so they need to layer in the rest of the story. But when a story goes off the rails, that's generally because the writer doesn't understand structure. So I agree it's helpful to use a beta who can go more in depth into their analysis of a story. But it's hard to find beta readers of that quality. Many authors intuitively know how to write, but can't break a story down to its components. That's why I don't believe writers always make the best beta readers.
Catherine wrote: "I do both, and a tinsy bit of editing. As an editor, I, like you remove myself from overall like or dislike until I've read through the work, but also highlight points that really turn me off of a ..."Balanced, like you said, is the way to go. If either mechanics/grammar or plot flops, then generally, the story flops from the onset. But my angle is that grammar and technical errors can be fixed relatively easy and a Beta should be able to read through that stuff and get the dealio. However, a non-existent or weak story structure is a whole new year at the keyboard.
Kevis wrote: "Many authors intuitively know how to write, but can't break a story down to its components. That's why I don't believe writers always make the best beta readers. .."I think many writers make good betas if: A) if they are open minded and aren't doing it to slam another writer to beef their own ego and, B) if they have a solid understanding of story structure, and C) stick to the genres they know best.
Personally I think that looking at the plot and characters is the most important thing that a beta reader should be doing. Editors and proof readers should be picking up on grammar and typos, although there's nothing to stop a beta reader doing that as well. I'm not a writer but have a business beta and proof reading. Like Jessica mentioned earlier, when I read I make comments as I go. All the authors I've worked with seem to find the experience of being inside a reader's head helpful. As a reader, at the beginning of a book I want to have a lot of questions. Who is that person? Why are they reacting like that? What do they mean when they refer to...? etc. By the end of the book I expect that all these questions will have been satisfactorily answered. If some are unanswered I point them out as plot holes. If there aren't enough questions being generated, then there isn't enough of a plot!
I agree with Jeanie. I always say to authors that if they've got a good plot and well-defined characters then that's what's important. Grammar, writing glitches etc. can easily be worked on and fixed. If you haven't got a good story you might as well give up before you even start.
Jeanie wrote: "Kevis wrote: "Many authors intuitively know how to write, but can't break a story down to its components. That's why I don't believe writers always make the best beta readers. .."I think many wri..."
The overall pacing can definitely get lost in the writer's flow of the novel, and therefore, I think it is paramount to 'feel' the plot unfold as the characters develop.
by reading the entire piece through and giving overall impression and then sensing, through experience, the glitches in the overall picture that is crucial.
As a 'mature' writer (of 69) who is just beginning with novels having only published in my field of psychology, I need this help and am assertively searching a beta reader.
If interested my YA cross-cultural novel is 45k words,
Jeanie wrote: "How many beta readers here sit down with a manuscript and consider plot points as a primary concern?As a writer, I give immense thought to plot points, not because I’m a rule follower. I believe ..."
Please explain the concept of plot points.
Stan,I just started a thread in the following group. Maybe you want to join and read if you haven't already. Like I said in the post, I have a very important read that I'm working on tonight, but I'll post my definition sometime tomorrow.
Jeanie
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The Writing Process > The vast world of PLOT
As a writer, I give immense thought to plot points, not because I’m a rule follower. I believe rules in anything creative are mere guidelines, if not meant to be pushed, bent, and broken to build something unique. But clear and strong plot points (even in character-driven stories) add tension and character purpose, and ultimately pull the reader further into the story and set pacing.
When I beta read for others, I read through the whole thing first so that I know the story and how it unfolds. I may make some quick notes in the review bubbles as flash impressions, but I allow the story to show first. Then I re-read the ms so that I can locate and point out the things that work and don’t work in the grand scheme. I’m more of a content beta in that regard, because I realize that mechanics and word choices can be fixed easily, but the structure of a story is not so easily fixed. If I’m having a hard time staying with the story, it’s usually because of the weak plan, and thus weak characters. I’ve also found that once some clear plot points are established, my writers revise more compelling page turners with clear character arcs. And let’s face it—the stories we love, we love because we become flies on the walls listening and watching interesting people go through interesting stuff.
Are there others like me, or do most beta readers just look at mechanics and sentence structure and then decide if they like the story without asking why it all works or doesn’t work?
I’d love to hear the approach and philosophies from other betas!