Goodreads Authors/Readers discussion
Bulletin Board
>
Where Did I Go Wrong???
message 51:
by
Jen
(new)
Jun 02, 2014 08:37PM
To be honest, I wish that writers who aren't concerned with professionalism would stop pretending to be professionals. If you just want an audience, go to Wattpad. There's nothing wrong with that...
reply
|
flag
Rhoda wrote: "I admit, I did not read every post here, so forgive me if I repeat a comment....But Jen, what if in the group rates the book in various categories such as: Formatting, Basic Writing Skills, Proo..."
To be quite honest, most books that are problematic have multiple issues. And I have very, very rarely encountered anything with serious grammar and spelling errors that would be well written if those were corrected.
Henry wrote: "I was just starting to like you, and now you are sending me away :)"It's tough love, Henry. You know how I am...
Jen wrote: "To be honest, I wish that writers who aren't concerned with professionalism would stop pretending to be professionals. If you just want an audience, go to Wattpad. There's nothing wrong with that..."oww..i find that elitist :)..
S. wrote: "Jen wrote: "To be honest, I wish that writers who aren't concerned with professionalism would stop pretending to be professionals. If you just want an audience, go to Wattpad. There's nothing wrong..."just like some traditionally published authors would look down on indie and self published :)
Thing is, I've read stories on Wattpad. They can be entertaining and well-written. Many writers find a lot of great feedback, and a herd of followers, by posting their work there. It's a great place for writers to work at the craft.What pisses me off is that too many "authors" put unedited crap on Amazon - some that's never even seen a second set of eyes. If these people are unwilling to invest in their work (editors, proofreaders, designers, etc.) why the hell should I be expected to? And that's what they're asking, S., when they put a price on the read...
(edited because I felt like it)
Jen wrote: "Thing is, I've read stories on Wattpad. They can be entertaining and well-written. Many writers find a lot of great feedback, and a herd of followers, by posting their work there. It's a great plac..."lol you've got to calm down :) think of it this way..first you wish that the book is being edited..the next things someone else would say there should be no erotica because ewww they are erotica..then the next thing you would hear amazon said only commercial book is allowed to be published! how is it then self publish and indie is going to be any different from the traditional publishing?
Jen wrote: "Thing is, I've read stories on Wattpad. They can be entertaining and well-written. Many writers find a lot of great feedback, and a herd of followers, by posting their work there.What pisses me o..."
Exactly.
And trad-pubbed books are already screened before they reach the market. Multiple people have been over the work, some likely being rejected time and time again until the finished product is worthy of the price tag.
Nobody's doing that with SP's. It's up to us, the readers/customers, to weed through the slush pile. Having a system to help with that is not elitist.
You (general you) are putting your products on the same shelves as the big guys. You're going to be, and should be, held to the same standards they are.
Linda wrote: "I don't think the point could have been any wider missed if he'd been standing at third and swung at a pick-off throw to first."I can't even. I'm too tired, ATM, to even process all the wtf.
Have a good night everyone. :)
I did sound a tad angry, didn't I?There will always be people who have a problem with erotica. Hell, I have a problem with it because very little is written well.
Here's the thing: I can't use random genre searches on Amazon to find books anymore because way, way, way too many of their results are crap. To be honest, I read crap occasionally (willingly) but...I don't want to pay for it. Crap is crap. There's no investment. It isn't a legitimate product.
If someone wants to put crap out there, fine. But don't charge 19.99 for 300 pages of it. And yes, I've seen that. Recently.
TinaNicole ☠ Le Book Nikita ☠ wrote: "Jen wrote: "Thing is, I've read stories on Wattpad. They can be entertaining and well-written. Many writers find a lot of great feedback, and a herd of followers, by posting their work there.What..."
well as a reader instead of seeing it as a problem looking at indie ans SP as an opportunity to get something new just like the way you go to an indie gig..i would be a far happier reader if i know im part of the process to produce cutting edge writer just like the x-factor or idol in music..thats part of the thrill..
having said that "Jen's list of favourite indie n sp authors" is I think a fabulous idea..i like to get on that list or using that list as a guideline!
S., reading drivel takes more time, effort, and patience than listening to some idiot belt out a few uneven chords of Free Bird.
S. wrote: "well as a reader instead of seeing it as a problem looking at indie ans SP as an opportunity to get something new just like the way you go to an indie gig..i would be a far happier reader if i know im part of the process to produce cutting edge writer just like the x-factor or idol in music..thats part of the thrill.. Um, no.
They aren't paying me to proofread or edit their books. I'm paying them for a finished product. Not to help them in the process of producing that product.
Linda, weird question for you: Does "At The Back Fence" mean anything to you?
Linda wrote: "Another issue that isn't getting a lot of airtime:Not every book has to be a "desert isle keeper."
Pass/fail means that the books making it to "pass" have met the basic (rather than "minimum") s..."
Agreed. I'm not saying there should be detailed explanations of all the rejections, just which ones have been rejected. And like Linda said, b/c they didn't fulfill certain criteria.
Linda wrote: "Jen wrote: "Linda, weird question for you: Does "At The Back Fence" mean anything to you?"
It does."
Man, I miss them - what they used to be, anyway. I lost days, no weeks, reading there!
I mention it only because some of the things you've said have reminded me of those articles, the whole genre of romance (at its best and its worst) and the readers and writers that formed such a wonderful community.
That's all I wanted to say. You made me nostalgic...
TinaNicole ☠ Le Book Nikita ☠ wrote: "S. wrote: "well as a reader instead of seeing it as a problem looking at indie ans SP as an opportunity to get something new just like the way you go to an indie gig..i would be a far happier reade..."ok i see the glass as half full, others might see it as half empty :) no right or wrong answer here :)
Linda wrote: "It's my understanding that the preliminary rounds of those talent search shows are filled with embarrassingly talentless hopefuls who cannot carry a tune in a rucksack. They do not pass on to the ..."Linda wrote: "It's my understanding that the preliminary rounds of those talent search shows are filled with embarrassingly talentless hopefuls who cannot carry a tune in a rucksack. They do not pass on to the ..."
exactly the point..people will flock to see Kelly Clarkson and not whatshisname? William Hung??
Jen wrote: "I did sound a tad angry, didn't I?.."
I must say, after getting to know you the past few weeks, I absolutely adore you... you can sound angry all you want! LOL
And no. that wasn't some kiss up to buy my book. lol
I'm on European time, so this response is a bit late after the flurry of posts:The idea behind The Source as I understood was to only promote good books, not to make shit-lists, because there are numerous websites who already do that.
And yes, The Source is intended to be a reference for readers, not a feedback for authors.
We've seen that some authors protested vehemently against any negative comment in the screening process. I think that anyone who would do that should disqualify immediately, but that's my opinion.
Linda and Tina, you know about authors harassing reviewers. By not posting why books were rejected, The Source aimed at keeping irate authors from coming after the screeners. And the reviews would only be for books that make it through the screening process, so those books wouldn't get negative reviews.
That said, if there's a list with numbered detractors that cause rejection, you could just provide numbers behind books on a list that failed the screening process (which, I'd like to add, is only by assessment of the Amazon sample and only on lack of professionalism, not on the story itself).
For instance, say:
1-formatting
2-spelling and grammar
3-typos and punctuation.
Then you can list a book with:
Title by Author, 2,3.
Title by Author, 1,3.
Most of the time, the books I don't enjoy are books that are clearly not ready to be professionally published. I call that published prematurely, because I think the author skipped steps that would have ensured a professional product. If you want to compete with other books, your book has to comply with the basic (not minimum) standard. No formatting issues, no spelling or grammar mistakes, no typos or weird punctuation.
It's not that difficult.
S. wrote: "well as a reader instead of seeing it as a problem looking at indie ans SP as an opportunity to get something new just like the way you go to an indie gig..i would be a far happier reader if i know im part of the process to produce cutting edge writer just like the x-factor or idol in music..thats part of the thrill."While I admit that I would also like to find a gem, I'm not all that eager to crawl through a sewer of shit to find gold at the end.
Like Linda says, X-factor mainly shows the talents that made it through the preliminary screening. Then there's a show were people get to vote (which is basically to sell advertising, as this is television, kaaa-chinggg), so what I mainly do is wait for excerpts of the absolutely incredible talents to be featured on Youtube.
And that is what The Source aims to be: the sloggers through the tripe, the judges of the talent, so that the reader can be assured that whatever ends up as 'incredibly talented' on The Source list has gone through a vetting process.
Now, S., I understand you like the challenge of sifting through shite to find gems, but not everyone has that inclination.
And books that are rejected by The Source are not crap or shite, they just fail the basic requirements to be included. In some cases, they fail miserably, in some cases they just come up short. So you're welcome to form a group with lower standards than the Source, go through the rejects and make your own list of 'not crappy' books.
Meanwhile, The Source strives to list excellent books, books that can easily compete with comparable books published by trade publishers.
D.C. wrote: "To be quite honest, most books that are problematic have multiple issues. And I have very, very rarely encountered anything with serious grammar and spelling errors that would be well written if those were corrected."I think this is true. At the very least, it requires an awful lot of imagination from the reader to see the "greatness" of a book when there are so many basic problems with it.
S. wrote: "lol you've got to calm down :) think of it this way..first you wish that the book is being edited..the next things someone else would say there should be no erotica because ewww they are erotica..then the next thing you would hear amazon said only commercial book is allowed to be published! how is it then self publish and indie is going to be any different from the traditional publishing?"I know, it's a slippery slope. First it's spell check, the next thing you know the voice of the people has been silenced.
Henry wrote: "That's a bit extreme, Sarah. I have seen some books that did not even see spellcheck, yet had a bunch of 5* reviews that claimed to have changed lives, improve quality of living, and stated that ..."
well that the thing. you could never be sure how the readers are going to be affected..you might feel angry at the writing..but for someone who had gone through the exact same thing it could be a healing process for them :))
Tbh, I think most of those five-star reviews for books like that are friends and family, socks or the people who feel like every book deserves five-stars b/c 'writing is harrrrd!' and 'editing is expensive' and 'I appreciate the effort' and the most common 'it's was only .99c!' It's the whole entitled here's your trophy for showing up attitude. And the if you don't have anything nice to say, make something up so an adult businessperson doesn't get their feel-feels hurt.
Eta: for clarity
I think there are readers who are fairly indifferent to spelling and grammar, although I don't think there are a lot of them.
Jen I would have thought the 'where have all the readers gone?' thread might have suggested why you are finding this hard going? Just a thought.
But basic formatting, writing mechanics, no gross errors of fact should be a standard. (No, you can't have your heroine standing at the corner of State and Dearborn in Chicago.) If the book passes that, THEN you review it for content. Some will like it, some won't, but it's always the reader's choice.@ Linda. I can't resist a giggle over this and thinking back on the geographical howlers in both Twilight and Fifty Shades of Grey and how successful those two books were despite them :D
I did give one book three stars, and praised it a great deal, even though it had some consistent grammatical errors. The reason I didn't criticize it more harshly is that I'm an old guy, and this was written by a young adult mostly for young adults. The story was quite inventive, and otherwise literate, and there was was no indication of laziness by the author. As I pointed out in my review when I mentioned the errors, I doubted that these particular errors would be bothersome to the targeted readers. Although I've done some harsh reviews when there was reason for it, I think I probably did the right thing with this particular book. It's doubtful that the author realized that these were errors, and in case the author reads the review it can be a learning experience to be applied to future books. I just didn't want to smack down a writer who obviously has potential.
Rhoda wrote: "Jen wrote: "I did sound a tad angry, didn't I?.."I must say, after getting to know you the past few weeks, I absolutely adore you... you can sound angry all you want! LOL..."
Rhoda, you are my favorite person of the day! :)
Linda wrote: "I'm not sure what your point is, S.No one here has ever suggested no one else should read badly written books. Those who want to read them are absolutely free to do so. And enjoy them to their ..."
huh?
Linda wrote: "I'm not sure what your point is, S.No one here has ever suggested no one else should read badly written books. Those who want to read them are absolutely free to do so. And enjoy them to their ..."
Didnt i say people will flock to see Kelly Clarkson and not William Hung?
I feel like we're being trolled.
The message here is that if you like crap, buy it up. If you don't, write honest reviews for others like you.
Misfit wrote: "But basic formatting, writing mechanics, no gross errors of fact should be a standard. (No, you can't have your heroine standing at the corner of State and Dearborn in Chicago.) If the book passes ..."I'm trying to remember a geographical howler in Twilight.
Sarah (Warning: Potentially Off-Topic) wrote: "D.C. wrote: "To be quite honest, most books that are problematic have multiple issues. And I have very, very rarely encountered anything with serious grammar and spelling errors that would be well ..."Agreed. Such problems usually indicate a larger issue with the care and dedication of the author to create a good quality story. To use an analogy, fixing the "clothes" of a book can never cover up its awful "personality."
Unbelievable! I said I like cat and then someone come along and put words in my mouth that I hate dog! Thats it im staying away from this thread!
S. wrote: "Unbelievable! I said I like cat and then someone come along and put words in my mouth that I hate dog! Thats it im staying away from this thread!"I had a response to that, but since you're going...
Bye.
Peter wrote: "Agreed. Such problems usually indicate a larger issue with the care and dedication of the author to create a good quality story. To use an analogy, fixing the "clothes" of a book can never cover up its awful "personality."..."I'd almost agree, but unlike people, who cannot change their personality, many books can be salvaged and turned into something readable.
Except that--to turn tripe into gold--requires effort and if the author isn't going to do that, who does?
Which is why, most of the time, when I come across a crappy book, I don't suggest a new cover or new formatting, but taking the manuscript to a critique circle and get some honest feedback from disinterested parties, so the work can be improved and hopefully reach the basic requirements most readers would expect from a book.
@Sarah, Martyn and Jen,I understand that you don't want to waste time on the crappy books. I wouldn't want that either. I get that you want to find and promote the good ones, I do, and I agree with you.
What I was trying to say, possibly not clearly b/c I was tired last night, was not that you should line edit the books that are rejected or even give a detailed explanation of the reason. Just that they should be there.
If you have a basic guideline of the reasons that cause a book to fail or be rejected, whatever you call it, that's fine. Why not have it listed somewhere and then whichever books end up in that rejection pile. No details needed.
I would imagine you'd give authors the option to fix the issues and then resubmit, but it shouldn't be about their feelings. If they don't want their books to be rejected b/c of quality, they need to make sure their books are up to snuff. Ultimately, I think it would be an extremely helpful reference for readers.
Most readers aren't going to get their books solely from your groups approved list. We find books everywhere. Listopias, friends feeds, the library, browsing Amazon, ad's, the doctors office waiting room, etc.
It would be really helpful to be able to cross reference to see if that book they found is listed in your group. Whether it be on the rejected list, the approved but not reviewed yet, etc.
Again, I wasn't saying you should devote time and energy to the books that don't pass muster. But if they're not listed at all, people may think you just haven't gotten to them or they haven't been submitted. When in reality, they were already rejected and the reader could possibly save time and money based on that info.
Just my thoughts, for whatever they're worth. :)
The Author Reader Convention has a rating system for a select group of reader/reviewers who rate books submitted by attending authors. Each category is scored on a 10 point scale. Then a total score is awarded. If you're interested here's the pagehttp://www.authorreadercon.com/reader...
Henry wrote: "So, in essence, you are calling for transparency with minimal details disclosed as to the reasons for a rejection. I think it's a good idea, provided that the details are not disclosed other than in general terms. Otherwise it becomes a "hit list" which will breed retaliation from either the authors themselves, or their friends, or their sock puppets, or . . ."
@Henry and @TinaNicole - I like that in theory. I think it would be informative for readers and possibly also useful to authors. The trick is in finding the best way to do that without stirring up unnecessary drama.
Currently people have the option of posting their reasons for approval or rejection in the screening thread. I actually find this interesting to read as you can get an idea of how people are making their decisions. But it's not required to do so, and the posts have been removed once a final decision has been made on the book. Maybe the thread should stand without removing posts, and people should no longer have the option of sending private messages? I think that would probably cut back on those willing to screen, though.
TinaNicole ☠ Le Book Nikita ☠ wrote: "@Sarah, Martyn and Jen,I understand that you don't want to waste time on the crappy books. I wouldn't want that either. I get that you want to find and promote the good ones, I do, and I agree wi..."
No, I get it, and I think it's a good idea. My initial reasons for not doing so were simply, honestly, not in the best interests of the reader. As I reformat the group, I see this as a necessary element.
There are a few more screening criteria, some of which do include content as well as professionalism. I've copied what follows directly from the Source's the screening guidelines:Screening Novels is done using the Look Inside feature on Amazon. You'll get a clear picture of the cover, an official blurb, and usually a good twenty pages of sample material to read.
These are general guidelines to follow when evaluating the work:
1. Cover: Is the cover professional? Attractive? Does it fit the theme? Is text easy to read?
2. Blurb: Does the blurb give you a good idea of the story? Does is make you want to read what's inside? Is it written well and free of grammatical/ punctuation errors?
3. The sample: Is formatting clean? Are margins consistent? How is the sentence structure, the paragraph structure? Are you finding typos? Misspelled words? Info-dumps? What about lack of details? Is the writer holding too much back? Are the characters well defined? Is the plot evident from the text, or are you left wondering when (or if) something is going to happen?
By the end of the sample, would you be interested in reading the rest of the book? Why or why not?
******************************************************
The primary goal of this group is to find the best indie titles out there. We're looking for self-published books that are every bit as good - if not better - than those traditionally published.
Errors in grammar, punctuation, formatting, etc., pull a reader out of a story. Because even large publishing houses are not immune to these issues, The Source is willing to overlook an error here or there.
To be precise:
Sample portion on Amazon (judged during the screening process) should contain no more than THREE such issues.
Edited: "errors" replaced by "issues." Should an author, for example, format ellipses wrong, this is one issue. If, however, the author misspells three different words, this is three issues.
End of quotation. This is Amber again now. I did not publicly post my screenings after the first few. No authors got upset with me, but I began to see that some authors did get sensitive about other screenings, so I began to screen and send feedback directly to the moderators. I saw two of the screenings for my book posted publicly but not the others. I think it varies by screener how they feel about putting their comments in the forum.
I wouldn't say there will be or have been no unfavorable comments in reviews of books that made it through the screening process. There have been some three star reviews. Not terrible, but not entirely favorable either.
Linda wrote: "Even I'm not that picky! :-("Well, now I feel bad...
Okay, that's a lie. When it comes to screening, there's no excuse for more than three errors in a twenty page sample. It's twenty pages. Clean it up. Get others to proof. With such a small excerpt, no one should have THAT much trouble finding a couple extra sets of eyes.
Just my opinion (and, uh, the rule)...
Linda wrote: "Even I'm not that picky! :-("You're not? *grin*
I suppose I should state that these are guidelines, rather than requirements. What bothers me doesn't necessarily bother everyone, and I've been overruled by majority before...
Sounds perfectly reasonable to me. In fact, those are the things I look at and consider when buying.
