The Old Curiosity Club discussion
Great Expectations
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GE, Chapters 01 - 02
message 51:
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Bionic Jean
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Feb 08, 2017 07:21AM
Interesting - especially about the humour!
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I'm lagging behind with my comments, so please excuse me if I repeat anyone else's remarks or questions. I've read through all the above.
I like the story being told in first person. I find it easier to relate to Pip that way. I feel very sorry for him, not being responsible for what Life throws at him. I think his sister is a bully who is disappointed in her own life and takes it out on others around her. Joe is a sweetheart. I really like him, and think he is Pip's saving grace in life. It really doesn't sound as though he has anyone else who values him as he deserves to be.
I wondered at first if possibly his sister was angry with him, possibly because their mother may have died giving birth to him? I could be wrong on the dates, but I don't remember it mentioning anywhere else in the book whether all the little brothers in the graveyard were born before Pip, or if he was somewhere in the middle?
*Special thanks for all the extra info and the photos. I don't like the picture of the convict in post 23. He looks like Frankenstein.
I also picture Joe differently than any of the photos. More strong armed, with less "meat" in the middle. He sounded much cuter with his curly blonde hair and blue eyes.
I also think the pictures of Mrs Joe make her look a LOT older than I would have pictured her. If she's only 20 years older than Pip, these pictures make her look to be an old lady.
And last but not least, I'm always surprised at Dickens' humor. To see his picture, he looks a bit "dusty". Say if you'd pat him on the back, dust would puff off his jacket. You don't see a sparkle in his eye in his photos, so it always surprises me to hear his funny remarks.
I like the story being told in first person. I find it easier to relate to Pip that way. I feel very sorry for him, not being responsible for what Life throws at him. I think his sister is a bully who is disappointed in her own life and takes it out on others around her. Joe is a sweetheart. I really like him, and think he is Pip's saving grace in life. It really doesn't sound as though he has anyone else who values him as he deserves to be.
I wondered at first if possibly his sister was angry with him, possibly because their mother may have died giving birth to him? I could be wrong on the dates, but I don't remember it mentioning anywhere else in the book whether all the little brothers in the graveyard were born before Pip, or if he was somewhere in the middle?
*Special thanks for all the extra info and the photos. I don't like the picture of the convict in post 23. He looks like Frankenstein.
I also picture Joe differently than any of the photos. More strong armed, with less "meat" in the middle. He sounded much cuter with his curly blonde hair and blue eyes.
I also think the pictures of Mrs Joe make her look a LOT older than I would have pictured her. If she's only 20 years older than Pip, these pictures make her look to be an old lady.
And last but not least, I'm always surprised at Dickens' humor. To see his picture, he looks a bit "dusty". Say if you'd pat him on the back, dust would puff off his jacket. You don't see a sparkle in his eye in his photos, so it always surprises me to hear his funny remarks.
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And I have known people who don't like poor, poor little Nell.
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You're right!! He does look like Frankenstein!!! I hadn't noticed it before.
Frankenstein, Yes. And that's the kind of place you would run into him.
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I don't know why the same artist did two different illustrations for the same scene, but he did.
I'm a bit taken aback if this is supposed to be the convict. Am I missing who this is? No my image of the convict. Looks like he's just listening to an excited child. Thanks KIm for all you do.
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OT -- wrong book:
Hand raised. I don't eat sugar by the bowl, and I don't like Little Nell. Well, I like her for awhile, but it's a long book and by the end I've had enough spoonsful of Lyons Golden Syrup to last a long, long time.
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I don't know why the same artist did ..."
I think he must have realized that the first one was way too gentle for the reality of the book.
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Could you, pleeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaase, introduce them to me? I'd so much like to meet them and shake hands with them.
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I don't know why the same a..."
Yes, I prefer the second one of the two illustrations for it's much darker. It's interesting to see coloured illustrations for a change although quite unusual. Somehow, I have been thinking of b/w illustrations when it comes to Dickens, and Great Expectations in particular as b/w is more artistic. I also prefer b/w movies for that reason - more atmosphere.
Oh, that's Joe not the convict in the color photos. Duh.
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You're right, Tristram. I take it back, especially the duh. Then let me iterate, this is a very nonthreatening convict.
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Do you think it might be an attempt to represent the convict from the two Pips' points of view? So the first one is an adult view, and the second, a more threatening one, the young Pip's? I must say I prefer the second one.
Edward Ardizzone is quite a well known children's illustrator here in England, and he also wrote some children's books I gather. Thanks, as always, for finding those photos Kim :)
Oh - And I also had that immediate thought about Frankenstein LOL!
Perhaps the answer is found in Ardizzone's profession. Might it be that a childrens' book illustrator would shy away from a darker more forbidding, frightening illustration?
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Xan
Your explanation makes sense to me.
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Could you, pleeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaase, introduce them to me? I'd so much like to meet them and shake hands with them."
Right here, Tristram. But we'd need pretty long arms to shake hands.
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A modern one would. Older illustrators had no problem scaring children silly. (Nor did the Grimm brothers.) But today, we have to protect their poor little minds from anything that might upset or disturb them, instead teaching them that the world is a totally safe, benign, warm, welcoming place to grow up in.
I'd say on balance that the second one is more representative of him. Just found out something interesting about his illustrations but it's to do with chapter 39, so I'll save it until then!
Xan Shadowflutter wrote: "Might it be that a children's book illustrator would shy away from a darker more forbidding, frightening illustration?"I'm now wondering if perhaps there were two versions of the book, and Edward Ardizzone's first illustration was for an abridged children's edition and the lower one was for the complete text. Do you have any idea, Kim?
(I'm sticking with my pet (or is it "pop") psychological theory though ;) )
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Indeed, taking a look at ancient children's books is sometimes like watching a good horror movie. A very famous example of a German children's book that scares the death out of children is Struwwelpeter, and if you have an English version, check it out!
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Could you, pleeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaase, introduce them to me? I'd so much like to meet them and shak..."
Anyone who dislikes Little Nell cannot be really that far away from me!
Tristram wrote: "Indeed, taking a look at ancient children's books is sometimes like watching a good horror movie.."Forgive me if I've mentioned this in the past. I had a book of Hans Christian Andersen stories that someone had given my sister back in the late 50s when she was very sick and often hospitalized. Only being familiar with the Danny Kaye movie, I sat down to read it, expecting to love it. Oh. My. God. It was full of horrible, gratuitous violence, and had no redeeming qualities at all that I could see. I couldn't imagine that someone would give such a thing to any child, let alone a sick little girl. I LOVE books, and have a particular fondness for childrens' literature (I have one room in my house dedicated to it!). As my sister died when I was very young, I'm certainly attached to anything that belonged to her. But that book went right in the trash. I will stay far away from Struwwelpeter!
Mary Lou - I agree! I too found that, when I read through a collection of Hans Christian Andersen stories last year. I think he's the only author where I've rated some as 1 star and an occasional one as 5 stars! Exraordinary! He was a very troubled individual. I wrote 20-odd reviews for them, (as quite a lot are on the database singly) and was immensely relieved to get to the end!I remember Struwwelpeter: Fearful Stories and Vile Pictures to Instruct Good Little Folks, but now wonder if they would seem so "realistic" or merely gruesome in a comic way? Not for little ones though, of course, nowadays.
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As to Struwwelpeter, I remember enjoying it in some way as a child, and I have also bought a copy for my children, reading the stories together with them. But I would not let them have a go at them on their own - just consider the story of Little Konrad who sucks his thumb and suddenly finds that the tailor rushes into his house to cut both thumbs off. That's gruesome and children might be induced to cut each other's fingers off, maybe?
What I most enjoy about Struwwelpeter is the doggerel rhyme and rhythm. It's so bad in German that it has cult status.
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Indeed they are. But there are also those who will argue that they prepare children to face the realities of life better than the saccharine kum ba ya stories that are proliferating today.
Everyman wrote: "they prepare children to face the realities of life better than the saccharine kum ba ya stories that are proliferating today. "Are you saying that "Captain Underpants" has no redeeming value? ;-)
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Could you, pleeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaase, introduce them to me? I'd so much like to m..."
Poor, poor Nell. Grump.
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I'll tell you who would like Nell. Calvin, of Calvin and Hobbes. He pours a whole bowl of sugar onto his Cocoa Sugar Bombs cereal for breakfast. He wants nothing but sugar, sugar, sugar.
That's Nell for you.
Me, I prefer Bob's Red Mill 8 grain cereal -- something with a bit of body and interest to it. The Not Nell cereal.
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Indeed they are. But there are also those who will argue that they prepare children to face the realities of life..."
That's true: I heartily dislike lots of today's children's stories because they are syrupy and insipid. Still, Andersen is far too melancholy and bleak to my taste; Mark Twain's Tom Sawyer was something my son greatly enjoyed, and it also had some serious bits in it, but still there was a lot of humour. I'm trying now to get him interested in Treasure Island but so far, he is not too enthusiastic.
Everyman - are you speaking a different language? Oh ... never mind ;)
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Grump.
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I have one of these! LOL (I love the series and sometimes am bold enough to review one ...)
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Graphic license? The convict did threaten to cut Pip's throat, but there is no indication that he actually had a knife, and my reading is that he didn't but it was just a threat. Where would he get a knife or dagger from, anyhow?
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Graphic license? The convict did threaten to cut Pip's throat, but there is no indication that he actually had a knife, and my reading is that he didn't but..."
That's true. I can't imagine they let the prisoners go around with knives and daggers.
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Maybe Pip took the knife with him? A boy nicely "brought up by hand" may have thought the convict would need something to eat the pork pie with!
Kim wrote: "I'm trying to get them in order, but I haven't worked on it much so far."I'm not sure what this refers to. Tristram and Everyman perhaps? ;)
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I'm not sure what this refers to. Tristram and Everyman perhaps? ;)"
Jean
A new picture. Good to see you.
Thank you Peter! With my cousin Rebecca, (my closest relative) in Regents Park Cafe this Christmas. Their heating had broken down, and everyone leaving the cafe was shivering more than those coming in! LOL Rebecca starts chemo again next week, so is very much in my thoughts.
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But this was the first encounter.
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Another childhood belief crushed.
The Old Curiosity Club
Books mentioned in this topic
Simplicissimus: Der Abenteuerliche Simplicissimus Teutsch (other topics)Tintin in Tibet (other topics)
The Sandman, Vol. 1: Preludes & Nocturnes (other topics)
Great Expectations (other topics)
Struwwelpeter: Fearful Stories and Vile Pictures to Instruct Good Little Folks (other topics)
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Authors mentioned in this topic
Hans Christian Andersen (other topics)Edward Ardizzone (other topics)
Edward Ardizzone (other topics)
