The Catcher in the Rye Group 1

[Zawad]

Zawad, Valerie, Erick, Tasfia, Genesis

[Zawad]

In this book, i felt that one key point was the relationship between the main character Holden ( who based on the hints given throughout the book is privileged ) and Robert Ackley ( a pimply, insecure boy with terrible dental hygiene). At first, Holden gives off the impression that he really hates the dude and talks about how he feels Ackley is disgusting in every way imaginable. However, as the story progresses on, they get closer including when Ackley, Holden, and a friend of Holden's, Mal, goes to the movies together than to a burger joint. To add on, after the fight between Stradlater ( Holden's roommate at Pencey Prep. who is handsome, self-satisfied, and popular ) and Holden, Holden seeks comfort in Ackley where Ackley was able to help Holden at least a little before Holden stormed out of Prency Prep.

Another thing I noticed was the constant repition of Jane Gallagher, who appears to be an old friend of Holden's. She is first mentioned when Stradlater goes on a date with Jane which later caused the fight between Stradlater and Holden when Holden accuses Stradlater of " giving the time " to Jane. After, he leaves Prency Prep., he later thinks about calling Jane but than dismisses the idea. Who is Jane Gallagher and how does she relate to the story? I guess we have to keep on reading as we are only on chapter 11. ( page 99 )

[Valerie]

I felt that today from what I read so far Holden is going through a phase where he does not know what he's doing and feels lost in the world. He also has this really negative perspective on things where he judges people a lot or talks about how fake certain things can be. However I do think he is the average sociopath because he loves to lie. He talks about how much he loves to lie also the extremes he goes to. For instance when he met Mrs. Marrow he lied to her on how he was going to New York because he had an operation (a brain tumor) which is a pretty messed up thing in my opinion. However besides Holden being a sociopath he does show his side of kindness where he talks about his brother who died and how he says that everyone is his family is super smart.

He has genuine emotions for his family yet is pretty straight forward. For instance when Ackley comes into the book, Holden talks about how he thinks that Ackley has a lot of pimples on his face and is super gross and has gross habits. Holden does also have this thing with how phony people can be starting with his roommate. (I don't know how to spell his name.) He then progresses to when taking about Mrs. Marrow's son who is in the same school and class with him on how phony he is too. Overall I noticed how Holden is super depressed an average sociopath and also has an obsession on how people are so phony.

[Tasfia]

I agree with both Valerie and Zawad. Based on what we read so far I want to talk about Holden's relationship with others. For example when he talks about his siblings, he praises them on how smart they are compared to them, but when it comes to other males he speaks very lowly of them. For example he says that Ackley is gross, and never knows when to "take the hint" and Stradlater is considered a "phony", and Holden gets furious when Stradlater and Jane were together and they get into a bloody fight.

Like Valerie mentioned Holden has an obsession on how people are so phony, however I found this hypocritical when he was on the train, he met Ernest Morrow's mother. When they met, Holden began lying to her. For instance Holden said his name was Rudolf Schmidt and then later says his getting an operation for a tumor on his brain. We haven't gotten to far into the main conflict but I feel that the conflict is going to be about how all the little problems in his life are piling up and how he has a foggy future ahead of him.

[Zawad]

well I agree with everyone else

[Genesis]

Based on what we have read so far, I believe that the relationships that Holden has are vital for the problems and situations that were inferred. There is no clear future for Holden judging by the fact that he has been kicked out of 4 schools already. The way he interacts with other characters in the book reflects on his personality and is key to finding out who Holden actually is. For instance, Holden says how he didn't enjoy the company of Ackley and always tries to avoid him. Also, Holden says that Stradlater is a good guy but he also sometimes says that is very conceited and self-centered. The way that Holden interacts with other characters sort of gives a little glimps of Holden's personality and helps us to infer what his future might be like.There are still questions that are not yet answered like who is Jane and how does she relate to the story? Also, why does Holden lie to Ernest Morrow's mother?

[Erick]

In the book, one key point in it is Holden's relationship with the characters in the book, especially with Ackley. He despises Ackley at first, due to his disgusting actions and his personality. However, later on, after Holden gets beaten up by Stradlater, he begins to appreciate his company although Ackley wants him out of there. Also, before the fight, they took him to do some activities with them (Holden and Mal)

Holden is also hypocritical because as Tasfia mentioned, when he met Ernest Morrows mother, he lied to her about who he his and even went as far as lying to her about having to get an operation for a tumor in his brain which he went to far and he is doing the opposite of what he doesn't like other people to do which means he isn't "practicing what he is preaching". So far, no real conflict has been shown up in the book but I think that the conflict will be about his personality and how it will affect his future and Holden will try to change before it's too late. I say this because in the beginning, he shows an antisocial aspect of himself but the more we progress into the book, we can see how he begins to slightly change.

[Tasfia]

In the Catcher in the Rye there is a lot of symbolism. For example Allie's baseball glove. This may seem like a small artifact but the glove shows Holden's love for his late brother as well as Allie's uniqueness. Something special about the mitt is the fact that Allie written poems on the mitt in green ink so he can read it when things got boring on the baseball field. Holden never shown anyone the glove, except for Jane Gallagher.

So far in the book, we haven't seen Jane Gallagher, which brings up the question 'why is she so important to Holden?'. The reader knows about Jane through how Holden describes her. Holden describes Jane as "muckle mouthed.' or she's "always reading, and she read very good books" Holden thinks very highly of Jane, and something interesting is the fact that he failed to make a connection with her (so far). For example when Jane was waiting downstairs for Stradlater, Holden keeps telling himself he'll say hi to her, but he never does. Additionally, Holden is always thinking about Jane. I feel that although we haven't seen Jane yet, she may play a major role in how Holden sees people.

[Zawad]

Basically, I agree with Tasfia on how Allie's mitt glove holds great importance to Holden, and the mystery of Jane Gallagher and his description of her and how her actions " just about killed him ". But something interesting that I would like to talk about is the topic of Holden's sadness. Throughout the book we can see that Holden is kind of emo and has crippling depression and uses his wealth to avoid the things that should matter most including education. We know that he still did not technically get over the death of his brother Allie but it looks like Allie is not the only thought on his mind. What else could make him so depressed? Could it be the way he sees people as Tasfia said?
Another thing is Holden's lies. He himself said he hates phony people who have to fake being nice or fake being whatever they appear to be but it looks like he is the phoniest of them all and is pretty hypocritical as he lies throughout the book and with every chance he gets. For example, when leaving the school on the train, Holden meets the mother of Ernest a fellow student in the school, and calls himself Rudolph and says he has a brain tumor. He obviously is not Rudolph and the brain tumor is something that we don't know about yet. To add on, he constantly lies about his age and uses lies to retreat.

[Genesis]

Holden is a narrator that is unreliable since the impression that he gives to the audience is of insecurity and that he is a character that is not honest. For example, he fails out of four schools which makes him seem like a rebel and someone who gets into trouble often. Also, he lies to a stranger that meets on the bus which makes him seem like a untruthful person and not trustworthy. Holden also lies to some girls in order to have them as dates and lies at the bar to get drinks. This makes Holden seem like a unreliable narrator since he has lied to people he doesn't even know so he might even be lying as a narrator.
Phoebe, Holden's sister, is introduced in the story for a just while however, Holden describes her as a person who is reliable and special. Phoebe I guess plays a big role on Holden because he looks up to her and trusts her. Phoebe understands that growing up is a very important process in life which impacts Holden in a way.

[Valerie]

I agree with Tasfia too, I believe that Holden has a weird obsession with Jane however I believe this is because in the book there was basically one chapter dedicated to her where both of them bonded. Holden describes how e was close to "necking" with her but he never did. He also describes how he doesn't think that she's like a goddess but she is a knock out. In my opinion I think that Holden maybe does love Jane since he also even showed her his brother's baseball mitten which is something sacred since he shows on one that. To add on, I think Holden as an obsession with her too because he has an obsession with people who are phony it " just about kills him" how phony people can be. Since he is in truth very straight forward and down to Earth (he judges, stereotypes,etc people a lot) so I'm guessing when he finds someone who s not phony and can have a genuine intellectual conversation with them to him that is sacred and a once in a lifetime type of thing if you know what I mean.That is why I believe that he has this such close connection to Jane.
I also noticed that the book has not really gotten in depth in the topic of Holden's brother Andy's death and how he died. But I think it is something that still hurts Holden even though he likes to give the impression that he is this white privileged jerk that is not grateful at all, however deep in his heart I think its just some guy going through stuff and has no one to talk to especially when you are a sociopath and have this total negative aspect on viewing the world it is hard to make friends or love or be loved. Holden talks about the night his brother died he broke all the windows in his parent's garage and broke his hand which to this day it still hurts sometimes. He can not even make a full fist. I think that his brother's death has a bigger role in the story than most of us think we just don't know yet since Holden is down to Earth but is kind of sensitive on that topic.

[Valerie]

We recently have read more into the book where we learn more and more about the Holden's character where of course he reveals how more of a sociopath than we thought. In chapter 16 it started out as normal day where he ended up buying tickets to see The Lunts with a friend he invited called Sally. Then in chapter 17 it is also normal where he is waiting for his date Sally and she arrives and their off to the theater. However Holden out of nowhere goes coo coo and thinks to himself that right there he felt like marrying Sally and the worse part is that he didn't even like Sally that much. He think to himself that he is a madman "I swear to God I'm a madman" he says. After going to the movie theater his date and him go ice skating. He goes off on how pretty Sally is. Then the real madness starts, he starts acting arrogant towards Sally and tells her to run away with him that they would have a little house and he would get a job. Madness goes in his head. The worst part is that in the end after it was all over Holden actually meant what he told Sally about running away.
However now that we have read more into the book I realized what really is the root of the problem, Holden has a desperate need for love which blocks him from being able to deal with how complicated the world is and why in fact he sees it in such a pessimistic. It is like for those who are single on Valentines day find that holiday so preposterous because they have no one that gets them food or chocolate yet for those who are in a relationship do appreciate the holiday because their love ones get them food and cuddle them emotionally. For those who are not in a relationship on valentines day don't have anyone to cuddle them emotionally and no mom does not count.

[Zawad]

What we read today kind of shows Holden's true feelings as he admits that he is lonely himself. I guess being lonely might be a reason why he is flunking out of schools and why he kind of just about hates everyone.
For example, while Holden was at Pencey, he really did not have any good friends. Stradlater was as Holden calls him (an arrogant bastard), Ackley was pretty insecure and was annoying at times, and Mal is not really present in the book while everyone else is not really at best terms with Holden. Yes, he had friends at other schools but did they really care about Holden? For example, Holden has met up with an old friend at a nightclub and the "old friend" barely even had time for Holden as he had a date and when Holden pleaded for him to stay he left saying he had a date showing how Holden does not really have a good friend who would be able to just postpone a date just to hang out with him.
To add on, when Holden called Sally, after he got himself drunk, Sally kind of denied him in a way by instead of offering to help him, just telling him to go to bed acting as if his wellbeing is just an obstacle to her sleep. To add on, when Holden lost his ticket to get his coat back and the lady at the counter gave him his jacket free even though he had no ticket, he repeatedly asked her out on a date even though she was old enough to be his mother, and of course she denied showing how Holden is desperate for love and a sense of belonging. It looks like Holden and Phoebe have a very good relationship as Phoebe is kind of the joy of Holden's life but her role on the story is yet to appear

[Valerie]

I agree with Zawad because the chapters we read today did really reveal him even more. For instance where he was very drunk it shows how he is very emotional. Since he was in the club and he was also crying because he felt very depressed. However he was not getting treated badly either because no matter how depressed he was, the lady that was getting his coat for him was very nice with him and treated him good. So I think that honestly Holden even though he did lose his brother. Holden has lovable siblings that support him and even though his parents are not around that much they still care for him and he knows that. He has been able to go to a lot of good schools. Genuinely, what I'm saying is that I think that Holden has to stop acting like a victim and get his stuff together.

So it is true I am being very harsh on him. However I do think that he still is in denial and a rebel without cause. I understand that he is going through things but everyone goes through stuff. Some even worse than what Holden is going through so this kid has to learn how to deal with it. Thats exactly what makes Holden depressed the fact that he does is not capable to deal with what has gone in his life. So every time he is faced with the obstacle he goes back to the dark corner which is called depression.

[Genesis]

I agree with Zawad and would like to add on that maybe that is the reason why Holden always looks for attention or is always looking for a way to distract himself. For example, Holden got kicked out of about 4 schools for the reason that he flunked 3 subjects out of 4. This means that Holden is not focused in his education and always seeks for attention by going to clubs and bars and looking for girls so that he can spend the night with. Also, Holden is always going to bars and looking for people to have a conversation with and he is always debating on whether he would call his sister or not since he is lonely.

[Tasfia]

As most of you already said, relationships are vital for Holden and the future of the book. So as we read more of the book, we still didn't see Jane at all. All we get is how Holden feels about Jane and the memories they shared. This leaves the reader with very limited knowledge of Jane.

Holden's relationship with his family is also very interesting. For example, when Holden is with his siblings, he seems to worship them. It is very clear about how Holden feel about Phoebe and his late brother Allie, but he seems to be avoiding them. Of course he is avoiding them because he got kicked out of another school, but I feel that there is more to than just that. For example in the book, Holden always seem to have an opinion about everyone, however we haven' read much about his parents. As Valerie mentioned before, Holden is a sociopath. I infer that his parents caused him to be a sociopath. I say this because, since we don't know much about the parents, it could be because Holden doesn't talk to them too much. This probably made an impact on how he sees people along with the death of Allie, which then made him the sociopath he is now. However, this is all just an inference.

[Erick]

From what we read, we can see more on Holden's true feelings. For example, while Holden was at Pencey, he really did not have any good friends. Stradlater was as Holden calls him (an arrogant bastard), Ackley was really annoying when he popped up in the book, and Mal is not really in the book while everyone else isnt really ok with Holden. Yes, he had friends at other schools but they really didnt care about Holden. For example, one of his friends left him alone because of a date showing that his friends didnt care about Holden because his friend prefered going out on a date than hanging out with a friend. Also, when he called Sally, she replied in a hasty tone. She wanted to get rid of Holden as fast as she could and she didnt care about Holden's wellbeing even though she noticed Holden wasnt on good conditions.

[Zawad]

We finished the book today and we can see that Holden finally came home. After a week long adventure strolling through NY, going to clubs, getting into fights, going to hotels, and meeting new people and hating the world as always, and just hiding from his parents for as long as he can, he finally comes home due to Phoebe literally forcing him to come home. But I still do not get the main lesson but I have some ideas. Yes, there were many problems but one idea is to stop looking for everything that's wrong and look for what's good
as Holden is always looking for the negativity in the world with all these phony and fake people and that no one cares about him but he should look in the bright side. He has a loving family, a chance for good education, wealth, and he also had an adventure through new york.
So stop looking for the bad things
Look for the good things

[Tasfia]

We finished the book today, and we were able to experience what Holden has been through. The book doesn't exactly have a main conflict, however it has multiple small issues that build up and leaves a negative impact on Holden, sort of like the "snowball effect". As we progressed through the book, the idea that Holden is a pessimist is supported. He has a loving family and goes to a prestigious school (he got kicked out though), his family is also very wealthy. Which leaves us to the question, "why is he so pessimistic". I think it has to do with all he has lost. For example, his brother Allie, never getting the chance to speak to Jane and having to hide from his parents.

I also found a major theme present in the book, the protection of innocence. In this entire thing, Holden locks himself up from the adult world, as it is portrayed as a world filled with cruelty. Another theme is death, which has been carried out throughout the entire book. Allie's death was three years ago, yet Holden refuses to move on. When Holden is feeling depressed he speaks to Allie. He seems to be haunted with Allie lying in a cemetery. In my opinion, I feel that Holden is fighting against becoming an adult, or even fighting against his own death. Holden wants everything to be as it is now, he doesn't want change, leading him to become depressed, frustrated and even mad.

[Genesis]

Today we finished this book and judging by our group discussion today, overall we thought that the book was senseless. Throughout the book, Holden is a privileged child and is wealthy but however all he does is complain about how his life is supposedly miserable. At the end, he just says how he regrets everything he did. Holden gives the story a gloomy mood. He finds the negative aspects to everything and just rants throughout the entire thing. For example he talks about how he has no one that loves him but he doesn't realize that he has a loving family. The actions that Holden makes also effects what he thinks of the world. He pretends to be older than he really is and does illegal things for his age and that makes him think that that is the only way that people might notice him,

[Valerie]

We finished the book today and I have to say that I am disappointed in the ending. The last words were very analytical yet the book ended in a horrible way. Towards the end Holden started getting super annoying because you realize this guy is simply in denial of the fact that he is a psychotic, ungrateful, annoying, sociopath. He thinks he is too "cool" for the world and maybe this is a phase he is going through however I'm pretty sure its going to last his life. Because he can't get over his depressed self until he faces the reality that maybe the world is correct and he is the one with problems.

I however do still like the book but i think something that Holden should realize is that if you are not part of the solution then you are the problem. He doesn't know what he wants to do with his life yet. I doubt he is going anywhere in life and no matter how harsh it may sound its the truth and maybe Holden will get over himself and start to see how much of a privileged guy he is and he should be thankful for that because there are people in worse situations as I said before.

[Erick]

After finishing the book, I noticed that there is no real conflict throughout the book. The book wasn't mostly about Holden going through issues but Holden doesn't do anything but rant about them. However at the end, he regrets doing everything he did. Holden is a blind kid, not literally, but what I mean is that he has the solution to his problems right in front of him but Holden won't notice it. Holden once ranted about how his family hates him but he doesn't notice that they really care for Holden and they give him the best things he can get, but takes them for granted. Instead of ranting, Holden should be trying to find a solution in order to be free of his "miserable life"