The Pickwick Club discussion
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Martin Chuzzlewit
Martin Chuzzlewit
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Chuzzlewit, Chapters 11 - 12
By the way, did you notice that the Miss Pecksniffs never really look the same in the illustrations? If you take the very first illustration of the Pecksniff family, the one in Chapter 2, they look like spitting images of their father, especially Charity with her expression of haughty self-righteousness. Now take the illustration for Chapter 11, and you will find that Charity, sitting at the card-table with Jonas, looks exceedingly beautiful, whereas in the illustration to Chapter 10 she still wears the features of her father.Are we readers to be influenced by this? I always understood that Dickens had a very strong voice in the question of what the illustrations were supposed to look like.
Chapter 11
Mr. Jonas Chuzzlewit entertains his cousins
Well, in Ch 11, Jonas seems to change allegiance between his two cousins. There are emotional farewells, but I don't think that we've seen the last of Jonas and his father. Bailey is leaving too...emotions are mixed in the house of Mrs Todger.
In Ch 12 we have the warm delights of the cosy dinner in Salisbury with John Westlock; whom young Martin mistakenly refers to as 'Northkey' and is quickly corrected by Pinch. 'Ah! To be sure,' said Martin, 'Westlock. I knew it was something connected with a point of the compass and a door.'The dinner is most welcome as Pinch and Martin have had a long, cold walk to Salisbury, where the repetitive narrative: 'Better than the gig!' reflects Pinch's unerringly optimistic view of life, regardless of how inclement the weather becomes.
As the meal draws to a close Pinch has reason to excuse himself, thus affording the opportunity to the two pupils to pour out their true feelings about Pecksniff. With Pinch's return he will not abide any critical conversation of his boss; ever the loyal Pinch.
On Pecksniff's arrival home, his blanking of Martin makes Pinch highly uneasy. He is at pains to put things right, but his hands are tied. Pecksniff orders Martin from the house with Pinch at his heels, trying to reason with him. At last, Martin is adamant and Pinch must accept with bitter tears rolling down his cheeks.
Poor Pinch wants to keep everyone happy, but the situations he finds himself in make it ever more difficult. I wonder if his eyes will be opened at last to Pecksniff's less than charitable nature. Such an intensely loyal friend: who would not be happy and blessed to have a friend such as Tom Pinch?
Chapter 12
Mr. Pecksniff renounces the deceiver
Kim wrote: "Chapter 12
Mr. Pecksniff renounces the deceiver"
Thanks for the pictures. I'm reading this novel from an ereader so I appreciate the visuals. The pictures do add a great deal to the reading experience of Dickens.
Hilary wrote: "In Ch 12 we have the warm delights of the cosy dinner in Salisbury with John Westlock; whom young Martin mistakenly refers to as 'Northkey' and is quickly corrected by Pinch. 'Ah! To be sure,' sai..."Hilary
I, too, am enjoying Tom's eternal optimism and good nature, but must confess I think it will wear thin shortly. The strangest part of this book to me is that I have not as yet warmed to any character in my reading. Even the evil/bad characters I can enjoy, but nothing yet for me.
With the possibility that Martin Chuzzlewit jr. is heading off to America, Dickens has opened many new plot possibilities into his narrative. Pecksniff's true colours have been revealed and I feel a bit more momentum entering the text.I'm hoping John Westlock gets more attention later in the novel. His comment on Pecksniff as "the most consummate scoundrel on the face of the earth" was spot on.
Still, however, and not wanting to sound like a grump, this novel needs an infusion of Dickensian oomph.
These are my favorite lines from these two chapters:'A gentleman for me!' cried Charity, pausing in her work; 'my gracious, Bailey!'
'Ah!' said Bailey. 'It IS my gracious, an't it? Wouldn't I be gracious neither, not if I wos him!'
The remark was rendered somewhat obscure in itself, by reason (as the reader may have observed) of a redundancy of negatives; but accompanied by action expressive of a faithful couple walking arm- in-arm towards a parochial church, mutually exchanging looks of love, it clearly signified this youth's conviction that the caller's purpose was of an amorous tendency.
Peter wrote: "The strangest part of this book to me is that I have not as yet warmed to any character in my reading."I also haven't warmed to anyone, most of them I don't think we're supposed to warm up to which should make the grumps just love them; but even the ones we are supposed to like are getting on my nerves. There is this conversation between young Martin and Tom Pinch:
'If I should turn out a great architect, Tom,' said the new pupil one day, as he stood at a little distance from his drawing, and eyed it with much complacency, 'I'll tell you what should be one of the things I'd build.'
'Aye!' cried Tom. 'What?'
'Why, your fortune.'
'No!' said Tom Pinch, quite as much delighted as if the thing were done. 'Would you though? How kind of you to say so.'
'I'd build it up, Tom,' returned Martin, 'on such a strong foundation, that it should last your life--aye, and your children's lives too, and their children's after them. I'd be your patron, Tom. I'd take you under my protection. Let me see the man who should give the cold shoulder to anybody I chose to protect and patronise, if I were at the top of the tree, Tom!'
Now why is it the only thing these two characters seem to consider is that Martin will become the great one and he will protect Tom? That annoyed me so much that I wish I was writing the book so I could make Tom the great architect and Martin the one to be protected. However, Tom seems to be the only one fooled by Pecksniff so I guess he doesn't have it in him to become great.
Then later in the same chapter John Westlock and Martin are sitting in the inn having a conversation not so flattering about Pecksniff and as Tom Pinch is returning to the Inn John Westlock says:
Hush! Here's Pinch. Strange, is it not, that the more he likes Pecksniff (if he can like him better than he does), the greater reason one has to like HIM? Not a word more, or we shall spoil his whole enjoyment.'
Tom entered as the words were spoken, with a radiant smile upon his face; and rubbing his hands, more from a sense of delight than because he was cold (for he had been running fast), sat down in his warm corner again, and was as happy as only Tom Pinch could be. There is no other simile that will express his state of mind.
'And so,' he said, when he had gazed at his friend for some time in silent pleasure, 'so you really are a gentleman at last, John. Well, to be sure!'
'Trying to be, Tom; trying to be,' he rejoined good-humouredly. 'There is no saying what I may turn out, in time.'
'I suppose you wouldn't carry your own box to the mail now?' said Tom Pinch, smiling; 'although you lost it altogether by not taking it.'
'Wouldn't I?' retorted John. 'That's all you know about it, Pinch. It must be a very heavy box that I wouldn't carry to get away from Pecksniff's, Tom.'
'There!' cried Pinch, turning to Martin, 'I told you so. The great fault in his character is his injustice to Pecksniff. You mustn't mind a word he says on that subject. His prejudice is most extraordinary.'
Here is Westlock cautioning Martin that they should say not one more word about Pecksniff, and within three sentences he is the one to bring him up. That drove me crazy too.
Kim wrote: "Here is Westlock cautioning Martin that they should say not one more word about Pecksniff, and within three sentences he is the one to bring him up. That drove me crazy too. "You are right, Kim, this is a detail that makes you doubt John Westlock's common sense, but if we are honest we might want to admit that we are sometimes just like that. At least I am. It's my firm intention not to bring up a certain subject in certain companies, but then my feelings often get the better of me. It's all-too-human.
Peter wrote: "With the possibility that Martin Chuzzlewit jr. is heading off to America, Dickens has opened many new plot possibilities into his narrative. Pecksniff's true colours have been revealed and I fee..."Peter,
the America perspective would surely have hooked some readers because in the 19th century, America, esp. the U.S., was a haven of promise to many Europeans, and probably everyone knew or had heard of somebody in their immediate surroundings that had emigrated.
However, Martin's idea of going to America has never been hinted at before his clash with Pecksniff, and the only mention of America that had been made was by John Westlock. All in all, I find this somehow contrived by Dickens, but let's see how he integrates the America strand into the novel.
Hilary wrote: "Poor Pinch wants to keep everyone happy, but the situations he finds himself in make it ever more difficult. I wonder if his eyes will be opened at last to Pecksniff's less than charitable nature. Such an intensely loyal friend: who would not be happy and blessed to have a friend such as Tom Pinch? "Hilary,
like you I think that Pinch is a very pleasant person in one way. And yet - you may put it down to grumpiness in me - his butter-would-not-melt-in-my-mouth naivety and his childlike behaviour in more senses than one annoy me. All in all, to me he does not seem like a man but somehow like a boy who has grown old in some supernatural way. Spooky.
Another nice quotation can be found in Chapter 12 in the description of the meal John Westlock has ordered for his friends and himself:"'Everything. Don't laugh, if you can help it, before the waiters. I couldn't when I was ordering it. It's like a dream.'
John was wrong there, because nobody ever dreamed such soup as was put upon the table directly afterwards; or such fish; or such side-dishes; or such a top and bottom; or such a course of birds and sweets; or in short anything approaching the reality of that entertainment at ten-and-sixpence a head, exclusive of wines. As to THEM, the man who can dream such iced champagne, such claret, port, or sherry, had better go to bed and stop there."
Another nice quotation that appeals to my grumpiness is from Chapter 12:"Look round and round upon this bare bleak plain, and see even here, upon a winter's day, how beautiful the shadows are! Alas! it is the nature of their kind to be so. The loveliest things in life, Tom, are but shadows; and they come and go, and change and fade away, as rapidly as these!"
By the way, who but Dickens would be able to impress the reader so vividly with the alluring details of a long and brisk walk?
Having read MC several years back I wasn't going to take it on again, though as I have reread it nothing has come back to my memory; sometimes forgetfulness has its rewards.Peter, I fear that you may be right that Pinch's eternal optimism may wear thin eventually. Tristram, I agree that Tim is naïve, puerile and perhaps a sandwich short of a picnic, but I still love him. I do wonder though how he can maintain his happy demeanour when surrounded by such duplicitous people. I really don't want to see him sink to their level, but I worry for him. In some ways he reminds me of an uncle of mine who used to say: 'You can walk through the dirt, but you don't have to let it stick.'
Oh dear, Tristram: 'the loveliest things in life are but shadows'. (Sorry if not an exact quotation). I sincerely hope that that is not true, otherwise, what would be the point of it all? There has to be sunlight to cast the shadows, so the brightness must triumph. The light is the origin.
Kim, I understand your annoyance at the topsy turvy nature of Tom and Martin's relationship. He offers Tom, almost certainly, what he cannot hope to provide. Tom accepts with his usual innocence. It's very aggravating, but I do believe that the last shall be first. The 'Martin's of this world will not ultimately triumph.
Peter wrote: The strangest part of this book to me is that I have not as yet warmed to any character in my reading. Even the evil/bad characters I can enjoy, but nothing yet for me. "I agree, except for Pecksniff. I used to be warm to Tom, but I too am finding him a bit much. His only real virtue is that he is loyal to the only person in the book who deserves loyalty. But still, lap dogs aren't very enjoyable to anybody except the person in whose lap they are sitting.
I'm also not sure we're getting that much plot. But maybe time will tell.
Kim wrote: " However, Tom seems to be the only one fooled by Pecksniff"You left out the "not" before fooled, which I know was just an oversight.
Kim wrote: "Here is Westlock cautioning Martin that they should say not one more word about Pecksniff, and within three sentences he is the one to bring him up. That drove me crazy too. "Yep. Just shows he has an insane delusion he can't control.
Hi AllI'm finally catching up (again!) I've read everyone's comments, however, I thought I'd add my tuppence worth about Todger's and it's vicinity.
We've heard, several times, the mention of Todger's being located in a place which is hard to find, for those unacquainted with it. I think the word 'maze' was even mentioned. Then we have this description of the inside of Todger's being equally perplexing to navigate. When I think of Mrs Todger and her abode, I can't help but thinking of her as the spider and the boarding house, her invisible web where few escape, or even choose to. It's like she's got a hold on these men, somehow, however it is only apparent through the description of the place and house, as if it being difficult to find means it is hard to get away from.
Does anyone else pick up on this supposed man trap? LOL.
Hi Kate,an interesting suggestion to regard Todgers's as a man trap, but then I would say that Mrs. Todgers herself is anything but an experienced spider as she seems to have to fight every single day for her survival ... hm, I have to admit that that's what spiders are doing as well, now that I come to think of it.
Mrs. Todgers may be very good at talking the youngest gentlemen into withdrawing his note of leave, but I would not go so far as to consider her as evil and reckless a hypocrite as Pecksniff. Her situation in life is probably not easy; just remember how all the gentlemen had their individual complaints about various alleged shortcomings of the board and things like that - but Mrs. Todgers is striving to keep them all satisfied in order not to lose a lodger.
What do the other Pickwickians think? Is Mrs. Todgers a vile schemer or a businesswoman driven by necessity? Or is there anything in betwixt?
Tristram and KateI did not pick up on Kate's observation, but, on reflection, it does seem that Dickens may well have been up to his old tricks again. Certainly, Todgers's location in London, and her house, are both maze-like. Her life is one of living on the edge of poverty, but are her actions ones to keep clients (albeit awkwardly and misguided) or something more sinister.
So Tristram, your question may well have to wait until we meet her again. This time, thanks to Kate's question, our Pickwickian antenna will be fully activated.
Interesting observation, Kate. This had completely passed me by. I wonder.....'Tis true that she appears to have more than a twinkle in her eye for the odious Pecksmith. Does that mean that like attracts like or that she is simply a lonely woman who desires company and has not divined his penchant for deceit? Or are they in some sort of secret partnership? As Peter says we may have to watch and wait.
Kate wrote: "Does anyone else pick up on this supposed man trap? LOL."
I hadn't picked up on the spider web image, had more thought of the Minotaur, but as to mantrap, it actually had more of a flavor of potential woman trap, didn't it, at least for the Pecksniff daughters?
Hilary wrote: "Interesting observation, Kate. This had completely passed me by. I wonder.....'Tis true that she appears to have more than a twinkle in her eye for the odious Pecksmith."Yes, she was one who could see the quality and integrity in Pecksniff which not everyone does see. But having dealt with male lodgers for years, it's understandable that she would have a good ability to read men and separate the wheat from the chaff, and she certainly seems to view Pecksniff as high quality wheat.
Yes indeed, Everyman, Mrs Todgers is a woman of virtue. But what is virtue? I haven't got a clue. I think in the good woman's case she must have sensed, as you have aptly suggested, that Pecksniff represents good wheat; it's a pity that no one has told her that pestilence may ruin the wheat at any time.
Hilary wrote: "Yes indeed, Everyman, Mrs Todgers is a woman of virtue. But what is virtue? "A question the Western Canon has just been discussing in its read of Plato's Meno, which asks just that question.
Yes, I did join that group, Everyman, but I think I'm in over my head with too many books at the moment. Some years ago as part of a course I had a year of philosophy (I remember only Descartes and Kant and Cogito ergo sum, but I don't remember having done any Plato or Socrates. A shame!For another part of the course: Greek and Roman Civilisation we had to read Homer's Iliad and Odyssey, both of which I, surprisingly, enjoyed. I feel, however, that I must at some point tackle Plato and others; there appears to be something missing without them. I only wish that I'd joined the group sooner. Ah well, I have Meno and Phaedo to look forward to at some point!
Hilary wrote: " Does that mean that like attracts like or that she is simply a lonely woman who desires company and has not divined his penchant for deceit?"Mrs. Todgers, the two Pecksniff daughters, I can tell you what they're up to, they want a man any man no matter what the villain is really like.
Everyman wrote: "it's understandable that she would have a good ability to read men and separate the wheat from the chaff..."I too have an amazing ability to read men....you're a grump. :-}
Do you know what this maze talk reminded me of? Many years ago when our kids were young we took them to a corn maze around Halloween. Corn maze, pumpkin patch, that type of thing. They had a parking lot but when the lot was full (we were in the lot) they began parking cars in the already harvested wheat field. Well even when wheat is harvested there is still the stubble I think it's called left in the field and just parked car engines remain hot for quite a while apparently, and the engines ignited the field and all the cars started exploding. It was a very interesting day.
Good one, Kim! Hilarious!
Quite the Hallowe'en fireworks display.
Hilary wrote: "Yes indeed, Everyman, Mrs Todgers is a woman of virtue. But what is virtue? I haven't got a clue. I think in the good woman's case she must have sensed, as you have aptly suggested, that Pecksni..."As to Mrs. Todgers considering Pecksniff to be good wheat, I'm not so sure at all. She is quite amiable with him and seems to be smitten with his daughters, as though she had known them for a very long time, but I still had the feeling that this was more the calculated, routine friendliness of the businesswoman, who does not want to estrange her customers from her establishment.
Just remember the Sunday afternoon entertainment when Pecksniff, quite under the influence of alcohol, makes advances at her and even conjures up the memory of his late wife - a strategy I found extremely vile and tasteless -, Mrs. Todgers gave him the cold shoulder, and she did this in a way at once firm and polite, which was not too direct but still difficult not to understand. Or maybe I got that wrong at the time?
Kim wrote: "Do you know what this maze talk reminded me of? Many years ago when our kids were young we took them to a corn maze around Halloween. Corn maze, pumpkin patch, that type of thing. They had a par..."Do you know that I'm actually trying to have some coffee here? Half of it came out of my nostrils when I read the ending of your post - and that was quite painful. Not your post, no, not at all - but the coffee was!
Yep Tristram, you may be right about Mrs Todgers. I had forgotten that bit. Then again she may have been repulsed by alcohol fuelled advances. She strikes me as a lady who would have been a great boon to the Temperance Movement.
Kim wrote: "Do you know what this maze talk reminded me of? Many years ago when our kids were young we took them to a corn maze around Halloween. Corn maze, pumpkin patch, that type of thing. They had a par..."the VW rabbit was one of the first cars with a catalytic converter, which get very hot. People would park it on the unmowed verge of the roadway or in fields, as they always had with their cars, to very unfortunate results.
Tristram wrote: "Do you know that I'm actually trying to have some coffee here?"Obviously you should only drink tea, then this wouldn't have happened. :-}
Kim wrote: "Tristram wrote: "Do you know that I'm actually trying to have some coffee here?"Obviously you should only drink tea, then this wouldn't have happened. :-}"
Indeed, it would have. Whenever I have tea it tends to exit via my nostrils without any exterior influence at all. Must be a matter of taste ;-) or the lack of it.
Tristram wrote: "Indeed, it would have. Whenever I have tea it tends to exit via my nostrils without any exterior influence at all. Must be a matter of taste ;-) or the lack of it."I tried to resist, but I just can't:
This is how real men drink tea
“Compelling evidence of tea’s powers to ward off fatal heart disease comes from a five-year study of 805 men, aged sixty-five to eighty-four, in the Netherlands. Those who took in the most antioxidant flavonoids, mainly by drinking two cups or more of black tea a day, had only one-half the rate of fatal heart disease as those drinking less tea. Other studies show that tea reduces cholesterol (9 points down in Norwegian men drinking five or more cups a day) and blocks the buildup of plaque in arteries. Tea drinkers also have displayed younger, less damaged arteries at autopsy. Dutch men who drank a couple of cups of black tea daily were less apt to die of any health causes, but particularly not of heart disease. Researchers credited antioxidants, called flavonoids, in the diet, citing tea as a main source.”
"One large study followed the green tea drinking habits of 49,920 men aged 40 to 69 for 10 years. Men who enjoyed five or more cups daily had a reduced risk of advanced prostate cancer when compared with men who drank less than one cup daily. If five cups sounds like too much, another study found that men who drank more than three cups daily were less likely to get the disease."
So according to my adding this up you should be drinking two cups of black and five cups of green tea a day. Hope you're thirsty. :-}
Thanks, Kim, you really made my day :-)Five cups indeed sounds like an insurmountable feat to me but if I can ward off heart attacks and maybe even certain kinds of cancer - at least statistically, which is not necessarily real - I should probably consider replacing one or two cups of coffee by tea, at least statistically ;-)
Tristram wrote: "Thanks, Kim, you really made my day :-)Five cups indeed sounds like an insurmountable feat to me but if I can ward off heart attacks and maybe even certain kinds of cancer - at least statisticall..."
and no more smoking. :-}
Kim wrote: "So according to my adding this up you should be drinking two cups of black and five cups of green tea a day."The black tea, yes, more than that every day. The green tea, not so much in winter (usually 1 cup in the evening) but lots in summer (iced green tea with lemon and honey).
Mmm, I must try that, Everyman: iced green tea and honey. Also, coffee is not the rogue it used to be. It has become very much a health drink. It aids against depressive illness, liver disease and countless other ailments.
Hilary wrote: "Mmm, I must try that, Everyman: iced green tea and honey. Also, coffee is not the rogue it used to be. It has become very much a health drink. It aids against depressive illness, liver disease ..."Everything comes in and out of favor. Butter and eggs were evil, evil, evil only a few years ago, and now they're practically health foods -- butter is now actually considered better for one than margarine. Tuna fish, which was part of the healthy diet twenty years ago, is now on the outs because of mercury. Dark chocolate, which was once a primary culprit in bad eating, is now almost a health food.
I'm just waiting for the merits of Breyer's Mint Chocolate Chip ice cream to be elevated to the "must eat for good health" list. I'm sure that wheel will eventually turn in its favor, too!
Hilary wrote: "Mmm, I must try that, Everyman: iced green tea and honey. Also, coffee is not the rogue it used to be. It has become very much a health drink. It aids against depressive illness, liver disease ..."You are right, Hilary. I actually had a doctor who told me to drink more coffee if I wanted. on account of my low blood pressure. But I had to tell him that it is hardly possible to drink more coffee than I do.
Everyman wrote: "I'm just waiting for the merits of Breyer's Mint Chocolate Chip ice cream to be elevated to the "must eat for good health" list. I'm sure that wheel will eventually turn in its favor, too! "The same way, I'm still waiting before I give up smoking completely - because maybe actually they'll find out that one or two pipes a day are actually a healthy thing to have. Dream on, Tristram!
now we are actually getting somewhere, I think. I have not read Chapter 12 so far, but Chapter 11 definitely imbues the novel with something of a plot. Not to be called a grump again, I want to stress once more that to my mind a plot is a nice quality of a good novel but not an absolutely necessary one. Who would read a masterpiece like Moby-Dick for its plot?
Back to Chuzzlewit: Chapter 11 gives us some more insight into the peculiarities of the household of Anthony Chuzzlewit and his son and it also introduces a very melancholy character, whom - the narrator makes sure of that by intruding into the story - we are not supposed to completely dislike. Apart from that, there seems to be a wedding coming off.
So feel free to comment on whatever struck you as noteworthy.