June and July 2014: The Great Gatsby

[Josh]

Jordan wrote: "If a book can make me cry, that's another thing all together. This one didn't.
..."

I think you've hit on something there, Jordan. Gatsby is a gorgeous tragedy -- but it makes no one cry.

And I think this is because, as Fitzgerald himself admitted, there is no one real in it. It is a brilliant literary construct, and it captures many truths and even many realities, and yet the characters themselves are not real.

And this is a huge, huge difficulty in a novel. In a less brilliant work, it would be a failing. But the work *is* brilliant, the writing is superb, and Fitzgerald set out to do what he wanted, which was to write something amazing that would last through time.

And he succeeded. He captured the glitter and glamour of an age, and also revealed the rotten core. And there are many touching, human moments in the book (mostly from Gatsby, who is a wonderful creation). But the story itself is too much a parable to wring real tears.

It's like expecting people to cry at "The Fox and the Grapes." :-)

[Johanna]

KC wrote: "Varecia wrote: "Then there was a boom as Tom Buchanan shut the rear windows and the caught wind died out about the room and the curtains and the rugs and the two young woman ballooned slowly to the..."

Yes, great quote, Varecia! And I wholeheartedly agree with both of you about the intriguing character description.

[Josh]

Varecia wrote: "Thank you, Johanna, for getting all the background information. I am still rereading a free ebook-version, because I cannot find my paperback, don't even know whether it is in the same country or s..."

I think that's a valid question, Varecia. How neutral an observer is Nick?

I think he is as neutral at any given moment as Fitzgerald wishes him to be. Which is...somewhere between an active participant in the story and a Greek chorus waiting in the wings. ;-)

[Jordan]

It's hard for anyone to be a neutral observer. We're only human, as is Nick and all other characters who are "just observing" the story. As much as we want to be neutral, we all bring our own thoughts and misconceptions to the table and we can't not do it. We'll all be unreliable in our own way, no matter what.

[Karen]

This was my dedicated day for Gatsby. I read the ebook while listening to the Jake Gyllenhaal audiobook, highlighted some passages, and found some of the music on YouTube.

So if you're in the mood for some really creaky old 1920s music, here it is. I think these are all of the songs mentioned in the book, except for "The Rosary," since I didn't find a 1920's version. I also included the link to the Baz Luhrmann soundtrack, just because there are some high fidelity examples of period tunes (along with a bunch of other wacky stuff).

The Sheik of Araby (1922) | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ofXvX...

"Ain't We Got Fun?" (Van & Schenck, 1921) | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y041-...

Paul Whiteman Three O'Clock in the Morning (Scroll Roaring 20's Victrola) | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=81cG1...

Marion Harris - Beale St Blues (1921) | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tf9A0...

Movie soundtrack | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2LhV...

[Karen]

I read Gatsby as an undergraduate and in the years just after, along with a couple of other Fitzgerald books and Zelda, as choice rather than course reading. This was in line with a general theme in my reading in those years. I was also reading about the lives and poetry of the PreRaphaelites; Keats/Shelley/Byron (for classes), also Mary Shelley's Frankenstein, and their histories; Anais Nin's books and diaries; stories of Paris in Nijinsky's time; and Lawrence Durrell's The Alexandria Quartet. Now in retrospect these all have little, or quite a bit, to do with each other, depending on your perspective. But at the time my friends and I found that kind of mire of young (and doomed) creative eccentrics to be attractive and romantic, and imagined our own gatherings as some sort of wicked and witty salons.

I've enjoyed your comments, and agree with the sentiment about never reading the same book twice. But it's late here so I'll come back to this tomorrow.

[Johanna]

Thank you for the music links, Karen! I'm on my way to mow the lawn, so I'll have to listen to them later on, but I just wanted to thank you already for taking the time to find them for us!

Talk to you guys more later!

[Johanna]

Josh wrote: "Jordan wrote: "If a book can make me cry, that's another thing all together. This one didn't.
..."

I think you've hit on something there, Jordan. Gatsby is a gorgeous tragedy -- but it makes no ..."

Very interesting thoughts, Josh and Jordan. I usually get emotional easily while watching movies, reading books or experiencing another kind of art forms, and although I felt sad while reading The Great Gatsby, that sorrow didn't make me cry — it was more like something between melancholia and sadness, I guess.

And I think there's lot of truth in what Josh says about the touching moments in the story, but how the whole story is just too parable to make one cry.

*nod nod* Yes, indeed.

[Carlita]

Thanks for the links, Karen. I especially enjoyed the instrumentals, as I picture a starry night, moonlight and soft breezes. So romantic.

[Johanna]

We've decided to extend our The Great Gatsby discussion throughout July. Some of you are still reading it, so I think we'll benefit from this decision.

So, there won't be a new BOM discussion for July, instead we'll have time to ponder over this one in peace. And there is also the Henry Rios Mysteries Challenge going on — feel free to comment in those threads anytime you like!

[Jordan]

Johanna wrote: "We've decided to extend our The Great Gatsby discussion throughout July. Some of you are still reading it, so I think we'll benefit from this decision.

So, there won't be a new BOM discussion for ..."

Thanks Johanna!

[Varecia]

Karen wrote: "This was my dedicated day for Gatsby. I read the ebook while listening to the Jake Gyllenhaal audiobook, highlighted some passages, and found some of the music on YouTube.

So if you're in the mood..."

The music links are perfect, thank you, Karen! I never really thought about the music titles mentioned in the book, very interesting that those are far cries from the energetic hot dance music we like to associate with the 1920's today. Marion Harris' version of Beale Street Blues ist very nice, I think. Don't care so much about Paul Whiteman, although he had all the good players :-)

[Varecia]

Karen wrote: "I read Gatsby as an undergraduate and in the years just after, along with a couple of other Fitzgerald books and Zelda, as choice rather than course reading. This was in line with a ..."

I remember some serious Fitzgerald-bashing taking place in the 80's, people kept saying how he stole all the ideas from his wife Zelda. Budding feminist that I was, I read her book Save Me the Waltz and was quite disappointed by her use of language and her story-telling.

[Karen]

I realized that my first long-ago reading was very much colored by Zelda and by projecting Fitzgerald's own personal and literary life on the characters. Other than Nick, who is a writer deluding himself that he's a broker, none of the main characters are artists/writers or particularly interested in either. Rather, they're rich, frivolous, unfocused, and share a weirdly American mix of hedonism and vaguely Puritanical rules (made to be broken) of social behavior. Well, not necessarily particular to Americans, rather to class and the expectations of the wealthy. What seems particularly American is how little affected by the war they (even those who served) seem to be. Perhaps the affects are diminished by it not having been on U.S. soil, or maybe it's an "eat, drink, and be merry" syndrome following disasters not particular to any nationality.

My memories of the book are also skewed by the 1974 film with Robert Redford, Mia Farrow, Sam Waterston as Nick, and Bruce Dern as Tom. I remember pretty people in pretty clothes, and likely saw it as a tragic romance and indictment of the class system. That seems like a 70's perspective. Perversely, I may have thought Jay and Tom would make an interesting couple. ; )

[Varecia]

Karen wrote: "I realized that my first long-ago reading was very much colored by Zelda and by projecting Fitzgerald's own personal and literary life on the characters. Other than Nick, who is a wr..."

"Other than Nick, who is a writer deluding himself that he's a broker" - wonderful! Usually it's the other way around, isn't it? :-)

Very interesting that you should mention the war experience, here in Germany the bookshops are now full with books on WW I, lots of articles in the journals and newspapers, so it is actually part of the public discourse. I read a comparative study on 1920's literature by authors who served and later wrote about their war experiences. There was only Hemingway representing America, but after reading Gatsby, I thought that the revealing of the "rotten core", as Josh so aptly named it, or even the detachment, the harshness, we all felt while reading it, could be in part a consequence of surving the war fields. But on the other hand Nick, who served, kept his humanity and vulnerability more intact...

[Karen]

Varecia wrote: "Karen wrote: "I realized that my first long-ago reading was very much colored by Zelda and by projecting Fitzgerald's own personal and literary life on the characters. Other than Nic..."

I've been thinking about Nick, and the structure of this story, which is pretty much classic coming of age, but wondering if that can apply to someone who has returned from fighting in a war that historically is a marker for modern loss of innocence. Anyway, I've decided that this is Nick's story about finding his place in the post-war modern world, humanity and vulnerability intact as you say.

It's disappointing how Nick is portrayed in the films, as a wide-eyed country bumpkinish naif, at least that was my take on it. Because when you think about it, he's from the same class as Tom and Daisy, so what makes him able to stand outside of things, both participating and observing? I think it's more than the differences due to wealth, because Nick seems to have a decent core, despite his self-delusions, and we know through his narration that he becomes aware of those delusions.

(I haven't actually watched the Luhrmann film, just some clips, because I need to be in a certain mood for his films. My younger daughter and her SO appreciated it, perhaps mostly for Luhrmann's sweet excess.)

Anyway, I was thinking over all of this and did some web searches. I found this really interesting article, but it's one that might be better to read after our discussion. Up to each of you. BTW, it's about a lot more than whether Nick is gay.

Nick Carraway is gay and in love with Gatsby: http://www.salon.com/2013/01/09/was_n...

[Varecia]

Karen wrote: "Varecia wrote: "Karen wrote: "I realized that my first long-ago reading was very much colored by Zelda and by projecting Fitzgerald's own personal and literary life on the characters..."

Thank you for the article, Karen, I think it is spot on, the author expresses in a very pointed way a lot of things I only vaguely felt.

Has anybody seen the TV-adaptation of Gatsby (2000)? I never even heard about it, having seen only the 70's Gatsby so far - Mia Farrow was wonderful, she communicated the "ephemeral" part (as KC said), but also the mean shallowness of Daisy. I'm not sure about Luhrmann's adaption, I disliked the trailer so much that I could not convince myself to watch the film, but maybe I will do so now.

[Jordan]

That article makes me almost want to reread the book. I don't know how I missed the short scene with Macay in his bed. But wow. There's proof, if ever there was proof.

I feel better now, having read that article. Lol.

[Antonella]

Karen wrote: "I found this really interesting article, but it's one that might be better to read after our discussion. Up to each of you. BTW, it's about a lot more than whether Nick is gay.

Nick Carraway is gay and in love with Gatsby: http://www.salon.com/2013/01/09/was_n... "

Really interesting, thank you!

[Karen]

Karen wrote: "... Nick seems to have a decent core, despite his self-delusions, and we know through his narration that he becomes aware of those delusions."

Quoting myself. : ) According to Greg Olear's article, Nick is still self-deluded, or at least deluded about Jay Gatsby. And while I was following some of the same "clues" with similar conclusions, perhaps a more interesting question is whether this was Fitzgerald's intention? Thoughts?

[HJ]

I read the book a long time ago, although it wasn't one we read for school. I've read it a few times over the years, and seen the Mia Farrow film. A few months ago I read a draft essay by a student doing an English Literature degree which commented on the scene with McKee (which I couldn't remember), and this coloured my re-read this time (by audiobook).

I think I'd always wondered a bit about Nick's feelings for Gatsby. This time, I noticed very clearly the disparity between the way he described Daisy and Jordan compared with Tom and Gatsby. I picked up several other things which made me conclude that he was either gay and trying not to be, or bisexual.

The article which Antonella links is interesting, and pulls it all together well. I do think that Nick's view of the events of the summer, and the way he narrates them, are affected by how he feels about the various characters. He doesn't like Daisy much, but he can see that she has a bewitching attraction (which he doesn't feel). I dislike Tom, and this is partly because of the way Nick describes him and his actions. I wonder how well they got on at Yale? I ended up feeling that Tom and Daisy deserve each other. I think Daisy tried to make a go of their marriage, but changed when she knew that Tom was unfaithful. She was a useless mother.

Jordan never seems real (did she to Nick?). He seems to decide he must become involved with her, to the extent of trying to ingratiate himself with her mad aunt, but his heart doesn't really seem to be in it.

I end up preferring Gatsby and being sorry for him, and again I think that this is because of Nick's bias towards him -- because of his infatuation with him, I would say. I hated all those party-goers who were bad-mouthing him even while they were his guests. I remember his use of "old sport" really grated on me when Robert Redford did it on the film, and it grated again this time -- again deliberately, on FSF's part, I suspect.

Some of the writing is lovely, and Jake G's reading certainly enhanced it. And Fitzgerald manages to make memorable a book which has no truly sympathetic characters in it, except perhaps Mr Wilson and Nick.

And what happened to the puppy?? I'm going to believe that sister Catherine took it home with her and looked after it, given that Myrtle was rarely in town, and the dog became hers.

[HJ]

What is Jake Gyllenhaal's accent? -- or, rather, the accent he uses when reading the audiobook? I found it attractive, but I'm not sufficiently au fait with American accents to be able to identify it.

Thanks!

[Antonella]

Hj wrote: "The article which Antonella links is interesting, and pulls it all together well."

Yes, but it is ''The article which Karen links'' ;-).

Thank you for your contribution!

[Karen]

I'm a bit more pessimistic about the puppy. The puppy and Daisy and Tom's daughter are treated as accessories to their owner's/parents' lives. Myrtle seems more interested in the collar than the small animal. I doubt it lived past the day or week she brought it to the apartment. There's a description of the dog biscuit slowing dissolving in the dish of milk. No one there seemed to have any idea how to feed or care for a small animal. Also, the collar is found among Myrtle's things in her home above the gas station.

[Jordan]

Karen wrote: "I'm a bit more pessimistic about the puppy. The puppy and Daisy and Tom's daughter are treated as accessories to their owner's/parents' lives. Myrtle seems more interested in the collar than the sm..."

Yeah, when you put it like that, I guess you might be right about the demise of the puppy. Poor thing!

At least with the child there was a nurse who we assume knew how to care for it.

[Josh]

Karen wrote: "Karen wrote: "... Nick seems to have a decent core, despite his self-delusions, and we know through his narration that he becomes aware of those delusions."

Quoting myself. : ) According to Greg O..."

I don't think Fitzgerald believes Nick is deluded. I think that is trying too hard to overcomplicate -- and if Nick is deluded, it really does weaken the impact of the final lines (which certainly would not be Fitzgerald's intent).

[Josh]

Karen wrote: "I'm a bit more pessimistic about the puppy. The puppy and Daisy and Tom's daughter are treated as accessories to their owner's/parents' lives. Myrtle seems more interested in the collar than the sm..."

Yes, I don't think the puppy lasts long in Myrtle's care.

But I think what happened is he ran away and was found by a little orphan child who loved him to pieces. And together they faced the world. Something like this perhaps...

http://yhoo.it/1mqyqDy

[Jordan]

Josh wrote: "Karen wrote: "I'm a bit more pessimistic about the puppy. The puppy and Daisy and Tom's daughter are treated as accessories to their owner's/parents' lives. Myrtle seems more interested in the coll..."

That's the best. :-) I like that answer.

[Johanna]

Josh wrote: "Karen wrote: "I'm a bit more pessimistic about the puppy. The puppy and Daisy and Tom's daughter are treated as accessories to their owner's/parents' lives. Myrtle seems more interested in the coll..."

:-) :-) :-)