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Great Expectations > GE, chapters 12-13

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message 1: by Jonathan (last edited Feb 01, 2017 12:27AM) (new)

Jonathan Moran | 666 comments Mod
This is the topic for discussing chapters 12-13.


message 2: by Mary Lou (last edited Feb 01, 2017 04:01PM) (new)

Mary Lou | 392 comments Oh. Okay....

Umm.... ch. 12, in which Pip feels guilty and worries about retribution for fighting with the pale young gentleman, unnecessarily as it turns out. More allusions to violence (using words like "gore" and "shoot me dead"). Pip continues his visits with Miss H. and they fall into a routine of circling, Miss H. taunting him with Estella, and singing "Old Clem" together. Over time, Miss H. questions Pip about his apprenticeship to Joe. Pumblechook and Mrs. Joe continue to discuss Pip, who would like to "pummel" Pumblechook. Miss H. sends for Joe (but not Mrs. Joe, to her chagrin).

In ch. 13, the family heads to town, Mrs. Joe to visit Uncle P. and Joe in his Sunday best and looking awkward, on his way to pay homage to Miss H. Poor Joe is completely out of his element, and holds his conversation with her about Pip's future through poor Pip, without ever addressing her directly. Pip's kind of mortified. Miss H. gives them some money (which Joe later turns over to Mrs. Joe, to assuage her wounded pride), tells Pip he need not return, and warns Joe that she won't tolerate being hit up for any additional gifts in the future. The family goes to the courthouse, where Pip is legally bound to Joe as an apprentice (followed by boys who think Pip is going to be "publicly tortured" for some infraction). Afterwards, they use some of Miss H's gift to eat out. Rather than rejoice, like Uncle P. and Mrs. Joe, Pip calls this "a most melancholy day" and says he went to bed "truly wretched" knowing that he had seen glimpses of a life away from the blacksmith shop, but was now tied to it. I daresay he was mourning what he thought was the loss of his time with Estella.

(Hope I haven't stepped on any toes, but I find a summary in each section to be very helpful.)


message 3: by Jonathan (new)

Jonathan Moran | 666 comments Mod
Mary Lou wrote: "(Hope I haven't stepped on any toes, but I find a summary in each section to be very helpful.) "

On the contrary, Mary Lou, this is a great help. Honestly, I am on chapter 9 and I am on a ferocious pace trying to catch up. So glad you put this so we can continue the convo without my lagging behind costing us. Thanks again!


message 4: by Jonathan (last edited Feb 01, 2017 07:57PM) (new)

Jonathan Moran | 666 comments Mod
Mary Lou wrote: "Pip continues his visits with Miss H. and they fall into a routine of circling, "

The thought occurred to me that if we mentally divided the novel up by setting, we could better picture how young Pip is shaped into a young man. For instance, the home setting with Joe and Mrs. Joe and the time he spent in the forge taught him certain things about life and relationships. When the major setting of his life shifts to Satis House, I believe, he is learning a whole new, antithetical set of principles. What is he learning about relationships and life at Satis House that is different from what he learned from Joe in the forge? What will the next major shift in setting be in Pip's life? How will that change him?


message 5: by Jonathan (new)

Jonathan Moran | 666 comments Mod
Mary Lou wrote: "[Joe] holds his conversation with [Miss H] about Pip's future through poor Pip, without ever addressing her directly."

Not just poor Pip, but poor Joe, I think. He is the one character that, to me, demonstrates pure, unadulterated goodness. I think, by this point, it is clear that Miss H is not a "good" character. Is she a foil of Joe? I think so. She is competing for Joe's spot as Pip's mentor on life. Joe and Havisham are living in contrasting circumstances. Very early on in his visits to Satis House, Pip decides there is something wrong with being common. Is this in direct conflict with what he previously learned by Joe's example? It seems he is torn between the decision to be common and stick with Joe or pursue a more respectable and affluent lifestyle, such as that represented by Havisham. It seems like Pumblechook and Mrs. Joe are on Havisham's side, trying to tear him away from the common life, whether he wants to be torn away or not.


message 6: by Jonathan (new)

Jonathan Moran | 666 comments Mod
The major event in chapter 12 is Havisham inviting Joe to her mansion. This should be an interesting encounter. I already feel bad for Joe, what with has lack of education and probable lack of proper attire.


message 7: by Jenine (new)

Jenine (_jenine) One thing I didn't understand is WHY DIDN'T JOE SPEAK DIRECTLY TO MISS HAVISHEM??! I mean, was he shy or just he was spellbound enough that he didn't dare speak to her (though I don't think so)?


message 8: by Jonathan (new)

Jonathan Moran | 666 comments Mod
Jenine, I think he was just out of his element. When the meeting was over he absentmindedly walked upstairs instead of downstairs. The poor man didn't know what to do.


message 9: by Jonathan (last edited Feb 14, 2017 11:15AM) (new)

Jonathan Moran | 666 comments Mod
Joe is my favorite character. Have I mentioned that? He is the only person who is good to everyone else in the novel. But, it seems Satis House has changed Pip for the worse. Now, he looks down a bit on Joe, and looks down on Joe's profession.


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