Beta Reader Group discussion
Covers, Blurbs, 1st Line, Query
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THIRD REVISION in comments: Query Readers Needed: Contemporary Romance with Speculative Elements
Overall, for me I think the voice tries a bit too hard. Things like "Feeling pathetic" and "That night" and "Subsequently" start to bog it down. I think maybe you can streamline this and it will allow the voice to pop without feeling forced. Also, I think maybe you're giving us details that don't feel super important. I wonder if the information in the first paragraph is important other than a sentence to tell us who Helen is. I also wonder why her soul is wounded. What happened? Is THIS the obstacle she has to overcome? If so, I think this needs more meat in the query.
Also, you mention magical realism, but I don't get a sense of that in the query. What makes this magical realism?
More specifically:
“I noticed that you desire stories featuring ballet dancers and magical realism. Also, I saw that you want fiction to pass the Bechdel test. I have a manuscript that I’m seeking representation for, and you strike me as a great fit for an agent. MAGICAL THINKING is a 103,000 word upmarket contemporary romance with moments of magical realism.” I would put all of this in one paragraph. Also, I think you can streamline it.
"Successful in business and unlucky in love," cliché I think.
Self-help should by hyphenated.
Standalone is one word.
Hope something helps!
That all helps. I need to cut words, so your advice is well taken. The magical realism refers to the UFO and something that happens in act two. Maybe I should say "speculative elements" instead? The wounded soul refers to the sociopaths and relationship bad luck. Many of her obstacles are internal, yes, but it doesn't look like that is coming through here. And you are right on the clause that reads as cliche. Looks like I need to rework that stuff.
Thank you!
UFO to me doesn't scream magical realism. I'm not sure what it is or how important it is to the story. I'm going to be querying a book with mind reading and a curse in it and I'm calling is speculative b/c it's not quite magical realism or supernatural or paranormal, BUT the speculative part is clear in my query because I mention the mind reading and the curse. That way the agents know if it's up their alley or not. So long story short, you might want to say speculative, but you also want to be clear on how it plays a part in the story. Unless you dive into the true psychology of a sociopath, I'd suggest avoiding that word. Wounded soul is also a bit cliche. You might consider showing us how she's been wounded.
I took liberties below to show you what I mean about showing us how she's been wounded and also how you might incorporate the magic a bit more. Obviously, this won't fit your story, but it might help you think about it differently.
Twenty-nine-year old Helen Schrader owns a Minneapolis yoga studio, dabbles in magic, and goes through men more quickly than she goes through Ashtanga yoga poses. In the course of a year, she’s dated a philosophy grad student having an existential crisis, a mechanic who couldn’t string more than three words together, and a doctor—who happened to be dealing drugs.
In desperate need of a love-life reboot, Helene casts a love spell.
When Helen’s best friend takes her to see her favorite band—a veteran British blues-rock outfit that sounds a bit like The Cult—Helen meets Brian Shepherd, the band’s singer and lead guitarist. Brian woos Helen with his rapier wit and Helen suddenly believes her spell has worked.
And then talk about how Helen is going to stand in her own way of happiness ...
not sure if that's any help.
So much to chew on. Thank you, Laura.The idea with the UFO and speculative vs. magical realism stuff is that the novel introduces reasonable doubt as to whether Helen's magical thinking and associated actions (spells and wish thoughts from The Secret, etc.) actually bear fruit, or whether she's an unreliable narrator. Her third eye goes crazy with inspiration and she believes she's seen a UFO-but does that "really" happen? It isn't made clear in the story. Part of her character growth involves becoming more skeptical regarding her new age beliefs, although she doesn't abandon her spirituality completely. I've wondered about pitching this story as an Inspirational Romance, but a lot of agents don't rep Inspirational so I try to frame it differently.
Perhaps the mystical elements in play don't rise to the level of magical realism or speculative, and I should avoid this language completely?
I do explore the sociopath's psychology in relation to Helen's bad past relationships (the story makes it clear that she's had lots of therapy, so that assessment is from her POV). Maybe, though, the word itself is to clinical or jargon-y for a query letter altogether?
I agree that wounded soul needs to be unpacked. This seems like the place to unveil the specifics of her past bad relationships, why they were traumatic, etc.
SO Helpful!
Oh wow, lots going on! I didn't get the unreliable narrator thing at all in the query. I think what you've explained just now sounds way more interesting than what you've put in your query. You might try focusing on her spiritual growth in the query ... or you might try the whole pitching your story in one sentence to figure out what your query needs to focus on. That really helped me.
I think that you are right. I need to find a way to work this stuff in without alienating agents who'd go, "Oh, this is an Inspirational. I don't rep that, so I'll pass." Growth and maturity seem like good routes to take. I like that one sentence idea.
First Revision:Dear Agent,
Helen’s a mystic—or maybe one too many magic mushrooms brought the voices and slippage into other realms. Speaking of magic, twenty-nine year old Helen, a yoga teacher and former Philosophy grad student, burns a love spell candle after enduring a useless therapy session and a date that’s about as fun as a three-minute forearm plank.
Helen’s best friend takes the pair to see Helen’s favorite band—a veteran British blues-rock outfit that sounds a bit like The Cult. Helen meets Brian Shepherd, the singer and lead guitarist. Brian, forty-nine, woos Helen with his rapier wit and they hook up. The idea that the spell worked is terrifying: Helen has a dating history that reads like the DSM-5’s sociopath definition and knows that a rock star is basically the worst type of guy. Helen can’t trust anyone, including herself: she fears that she’s too weird and damaged to be lovable and reels at the prospect of sharing her…differences with anyone. Helen must overcome her insecurities, or she’s doomed to be the existentialist Bridget Jones. Who’s super bendy.
MAGICAL THINKING is a 103,000 word upmarket contemporary romance. It reads like Jessica Topper’s Louder than Love meets Tiffanie DeBartolo’s How to Kill a Rock Star—but with a speculative sprinkle. I work as a literacy tutor, and I’m an active RWA member and a yoga buff. Thank you for your time and consideration.
With the caveat that I'm not a romance reader, this isn't doing much for me either. I think it is less bad, but still wordy and I'm not getting a punch. One way to cut things down is to leave out such details as Brian's last name and age. This is my stab at it, use as much or as little as you feel valuable:Helen’s a mystic who hears voices — or maybe she's had one too many magic mushrooms.
Helen also has man problems. Or would, if she could keep one around long enough.
Frustrated with her lack of romance, Helen uses a love spell.
Helen's best friend takes her to a vetran British blues-rock concert where she meets Brian, the lead singer. She and Brian hit things off so well that Helen is terrified with the success of her spell. Rockers are the worst and she's convinced she's too weird and damaged to be lovealbe.
Can Helen overcome her insecurities or is she doomed to be an existentialist Bridget Jones? Who’s super bendy.
I'm late to this (rock?) party.Super bendy sounds terrible. And bridget jones is old hat. FFS, helen (fielding) is my age. Forget that.
Your first go was too much synopsis. You've got shorter and dropped unnecessary detail.
But, what is the story? Not in summary, but the main points?
You are condensing down instead of thinking up.
Helen has this life/wants that/can't get there, why?
Enter new feature. Man in band.
Challenges to relationship?
Where does mag real fit in?
Thanks, Roughseasinthemed. You're probably right about Bridget Jones reference. I'm trying to set up the stakes of her choice, but perhaps that's not the way lol. I'm trying to figure out how to get those main points in there without giving away too much plot, writing a summary, etc.
I'm changing MR to "speculative." It relates to the voices and altered states and such...yes it poses a challenge to the relationship, and I probably need to get that in there in a way that doesn't spoil the second act. Sigh. Writing these things is hard.
I appreciate everyone's feedback very much! All of this input helps me organize my thoughts and gain clarity.
Happy to add input if I can. Don''t oversweat, don't overwrite. Just think what the story is about. If it is girl meets obnoxious boy, say so. And why it might be interesting.
I definitely have been overwriting this query. Seems that the trick is to condense the most important elements of the story into as few words as possible without spoiling the plot or summarizing. Easier said than done, ugh!
Different skillset. Have you read around similar queries? There are some great responses.But just, don't summarise.
Think, what is interesting? What is going to draw people in? Magic(k)? Romance(?) sex(?)
I don't know.
Don't have two strands, choose one.
Hmmmm...good points and things to chew on.Yeah, I've read lots of queries and feedback. Applying the strategies to my own work...a whole 'nother animal.
What helped me revise my very first rough draft query letter (so bad I won't even show it here lol) was re-reading my book.
There are some excellent responses to draft query letters on here. Well worth a read.Many commenters highlight the difference between a synopis and a query letter, and point out the key elements needed. I know it's tecioys, but do take a look at past posts. Great advice there.
And, good luck :)
I appreciate you all. Revision #2:Dear Agent,
Helen’s a mystic—or maybe she’s just had too many magic mushrooms—who casts a love spell, meets her rocker crush, and starts to regret her occult meddling.
Romantic problems plague Helen. She’s dated a fidelity-challenged musician, a hedge fund guy with a predilection for hookers and blow, and a pick up artist who totally overestimated his dating market value.
Desperate times call for drastic measures, so Helen casts a love spell.
Helen’s best friend takes the pair to see Helen’s favorite band, a veteran British blues-rock outfit. Helen meets Brian, the singer and lead guitarist whom she’s crushed on for years.
Chemistry crackles, but Helen’s terrified by the success of her spell. Rockers are bad news, and Helen fears that she’s too weird and damaged to be lovable.
Karma comes reaping just when Helen’s conquered her doubts. Occult elements intrude into Helen and Brian’s lives again, and this time it isn’t cute. He’s hiding things, and his shady behavior provokes suspicion that he’s cheating.
In order to find their happy ending, Brian and Helen both need to learn to open up and trust again. And Helen needs to burn that Ouija board.
MAGICAL THINKING is a 103,000 word upmarket contemporary romance with speculative elements. It reads like Jessica Topper’s Louder than Love meets Tiffanie DeBartolo’s How to Kill a Rock Star—but with a sprinkle of magic. I work as a literacy tutor, and I’m an active RWA member. Thank you for your time and consideration.
Except the first sentence is completely wrong, the rest sounds pretty good to me.
Thanks, Keith. Can you elaborate on what's amiss in the first sentence?
If you want to mention magic mushrooms, fine, but why the rest? It is like a summary of the rest of the blurb, why not let people read it? Maybe something like this:Helen’s a mystic—or maybe she’s just had too many magic mushrooms.
Romantic problems plague Helen...
Gotcha. I was thinking that I needed the story overview in the hook, but you are right that I repeat all of that later anyway.Thank you!!!
I'm in the midst of an edit, but I'll come back shortly as I have a few comments (max an hour).
I agree with Keith. This is fantastic. It made me laugh.
Thank you, Cimone! I'm thrilled and delighted that some of the humor is landing!!
How 'bout this for a hook:Helen’s a mystic—or maybe she’s just had too many magic mushrooms—who resorts to the occult to jump start her sad social life.
Don't I need something about her problem in there for maximum query punch?
You're welcome, Kat. I don't think you need to state her main problem in the first sentence.
That could work. However, I like it to end with mushrooms. It seems clear in the rest that she makes use of the occult, I don't think you are benefited by repeating it.
Sorry. I lost this! Okies. I'll start.It's too long. Don't worry about that as I say it about virtually every query.
Pick up is hyphenated. Pick-up.
Too much detail, still.
What is the story? Romance meets occult? Why would we be interested? We need challenges, obstacles and goals. They don't yet exist. Don't summarise, tell us what the story is about.
Pm me if you want to discuss further.
Thanks Roughseasinthemed. Hmmm...Capturing the story versus listing details. Too much summary, still.
Interest-why?
Clear challenges, obstacles and goals still need to be stated.
I'm going to stew on this, do another rewrite, then PM you. :) Thanks for all of your help!
As far as I can see, this woman does magic mushies, fancies a rocker and, well? Huh? Step outside and look at it.
I think you spend too much time on the characters intro here(the entire query on it on revision #2). The obstacles are quite vague and the stakes are absent.Helen’s a mystic—or maybe she’s just had too many magic mushrooms. I like that hook without the second half, but it tells us absolutely nothing about the story.
Yeah, I think I see what you mean. What are the concepts behind the story? The ideas, themes, driving forces.
Thinking deeper than the plot and what happens to see, and express, the meaning behind what's happening and why readers should care.
Does that capture what you're getting at?
I'm thinking that there needs to be another sentence after that hook that captures the following: what the story is about, why we should care, and the stakes. From there, present Helen's problem (love life/self-sabotaging), the Brian development (ostensible solution, but what stands in the way?), and what stands in the way of her happiness/getting what she wants (obstacle).
I think that I'm getting a clearer picture of the remaining problems.
The details themselves don't show the story in a manner than presents problem, stakes, and obstacles clearly.
Whew! Back to work!
Leland wrote: "I think you spend too much time on the characters intro here(the entire query on it on revision #2). The obstacles are quite vague and the stakes are absent.Helen’s a mystic—or maybe she’s just h..."
What do you mean by the second half? This stuff?:
who casts a love spell, meets her rocker crush, and starts to regret her occult meddling.
I meant the second half of the hook that even if it was removed it's still too few details. And all of that stuff is far too vague or is just setup. There is really no story without details of the obstacles and the stakes. And you just mention them so vaguely.We need these:
Who is the mc? You spend the entire query on this one, a bad idea.
What do they want? it's in here
What stands in their way? too vague to mean anything.
What happens when they fail? Not here
just to clarify.
Underdeveloped obstacles and stakes, too much MC. Got it. Thanks, Leland.
Just to be clear, Leland, are you suggesting I ditch the mushroom part and leave the hook as "Helen's a mystic" (perhaps followed by something OTHER than the mushroom part after the dash)?
I like the mushroom bit, it shows an aspect of her personality.
I would keep it that part and just go with a shorter logline that gives more details after word. I was intrigued by it. You just lost me with the rest. I might go into more detail about the occult meddling in the hook. It seems to be where your obstacles are coming from. It just needs more fleshing out in the query.
So maybe likeHelen's a lonely mystic--hallucinogens rewired her brain--who's love spell threatens her life and sanity.
Or something. This is HARD
Is the love spell something that starts the story, or, as it seems on reading this thread, it is something that comes part way into the story? If the former, then it should go first (but then drop later references to it), if the latter then you don't want to open with it. You want to open with who the character is, so we can develop some interest in her before you start to describe the challenges she needs to overcome.
It's much easier for other people to critique your efforts, we aren't that close and have nothing invested. Look around at some of the other threads on the same topic and see if you can't spot some of the identical trends in your efforts.It sure has helped me!
Love spell starts the story. The hardest part for me is the balance.
Enough detail so that it's not too vague, but not so many that it becomes a plot summary.
Show stakes and obstacles, but don't tell...you aren't supposed to spoil act 2 or three, but show stakes and obstacles in a way that isn't vague.
Gotta care about the character and find her story compelling, but she can't dominate the query.
I'm sure there is a sweet spot, somewhere. I'm determined to hack this thing if it drives me bananas!
Mine has been driving me nuts for a while now. I learned something important when getting reader feedback. It's just as important to draw interested readers in as it is to let disinterested readers know to move along. I've had several readers that really didn't like my story at all, despite what I feel clear is a title and log line. Anyway, nothing like making a miserable situation worse, eh?Keep in mind that the only purpose of the query is to get an agent/publisher to ask for the manuscript. You want to let people who might be interested get enough detail they ask for the MS while allowing those who couldn't care less to move on. All in 15-30 seconds. If your story is humorous, as is implied throughout the thread, then you want your blurb to reflect that. You want to give an indication of who the character is, the obstacles she has to overcome and the stakes depending on her success. If, as seems the case, her obstacle is her own self, then the stakes may be her potential happiness.
The 'trick' is to convey those aspects with energy and verve so the agent/publisher is intrigued enough to ask for the MS. Once that's accomplished then the query has served its purpose. The blurb you create for the query may contribute to what winds up on the back of the book, but the only important thing now is to get a MS request.
You don't need to create a synopsis, so don't think you need to mention every event. Pick 2-3 main events that talk to her obstacle(s) and stake(s) and leave it at that. We don't need to know that Brian is lead singer and guitarist, he can simply be a band member. Its not like they don't all have the same reputation, right? Giving us his last name and detailed position in the band doesn't contribute to the obstacle or stake, and to a certain degree, we don't even need to know his name. Too much detail gets confusing.
Did you look at some of the other threads? You are far from alone in this nightmarish situation ;-)
Hunger games is probably the best example I could come up with.Just a simple example of how I might do it.
Hook: The Hunger Games, a bloody battle royale between the twelve districts of Panem, forces Katniss to choose between herself and her family.
By the end of the query we would know that she's forced to compete in the hunger games. If she does, her family loses part of their means of survival. If she refuses, then she loses her sister. All that just for the first chapter. A real bare bones version, but you get the jest.
I would shoot for something similar just to get the agent interested. Though honestly, an agent might have read your query out the slush pile on just on the mushroom line for example. I might have anyway. I've been told the hook can make or break your chances sometimes.
Also, if you haven't looked at queryshark I would. It really helps reading through it.
Dear Agent,
I noticed that you desire stories featuring ballet dancers and magical realism. Also, I saw that you want fiction to pass the Bechdel test. I have a manuscript that I’m seeking representation for, and you strike me as a great fit for an agent.
MAGICAL THINKING is a 103,000 word upmarket contemporary romance with moments of magical realism. Helen Schrader, twenty-nine, is a former Philosophy graduate student who owns a Minneapolis yoga studio. Successful in business and unlucky in love, Helen read The Secret with a highlighter and plays with magic(k). Unfortunately, the universe isn’t delivering her soul mate. Feeling pathetic, Helen burns a love spell candle. That night, Helen sees a UFO. Inspiration strikes. Subsequently, Helen pens a new age self help book that garners horrible reviews. An existential crisis looms. To cheer Helen up, Helen’s best friend Lisa takes the pair to see Helen’s favorite band in concert. Chariotz of Fyre is a veteran British blues-rock outfit that sounds a bit like The Cult. Beloved by fans, CoF plays huge arenas and puts on a spectacle-heavy show.
By chance, Helen meets Brian Shepherd, CoF’s singer and lead guitarist. Brian, forty-nine, woos Helen with his rapier wit and they hook up. Brian calls as promised. Helen, however, has been hurt by sociopaths and has misgivings about falling for a rock star. In order to find love and contentment at last, Helen must heal her wounded soul and choose to trust again. Otherwise, she’s doomed to be an existentialist Bridget Jones. Who’s super bendy.
MAGICAL THINKING reads like Jessica Topper’s Louder than Love meets Tiffanie DeBartolo’s How to Kill a Rock Star—but with a sprinkle of mysticism. It’s the first of a series but readable as a stand alone. I work as a literacy tutor, and I’m an active RWA member and a yoga buff. Thank you for your time and consideration.