World, Writing, Wealth discussion
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Feminism: Needs an image makeover or what's in a name?
Tara wrote: "Mehreen wrote: "Tara wrote: "Mehreen wrote: "Tara wrote: "" if you are an example of a feminist then God help us song "This qualifies as a personal comment. Let's remain civil."
Let's get this s..."
It is always a good idea to be civil. However, if I perceive insult directed at me, I'll fight back. That's the feminist in me! LOL.
Tara wrote: "Mehreen wrote: "Matthew wrote: "Mehreen wrote: "Tara wrote: "Mehreen wrote: "Krazykiwi wrote: "Mehreen wrote: " I never liked the idea of feminism." Interesting.
What exactly do you have against..."
Of course. Some already have them in their cultures. They don't need to fight for it or mark them as "feminists". I'd go for a more inclusive term "Humanists" to ensure equal rights for both men and women regardless of "genitalia" as krazykiwi puts it.
Tara wrote: "Mehreen wrote: "Krazykiwi wrote: "Mehreen wrote: "I don't think any gender deserves more rights. That's not the issue. I am saying that in some cultures women enjoy equal rights and power just as m..."You don't think there are women who oppress other women? I think you'll find that every sphere of life.
Mehreen wrote: "Matthew wrote: "Mehreen wrote: "Matthew wrote: "Mehreen wrote: "Tara wrote: "Mehreen wrote: "Krazykiwi wrote: "Mehreen wrote: " I never liked the idea of feminism." Interesting.
What exactly do ..."
I am well aware of the existence of matrilineal societies. But just based on the examples you provided, they are a drop in the bucket of Pakistan and the Indian subcontinent, where patriarchy is the firm rule, and has included violence for many millennia.
Also, I don't understand what you mean when you talk of ethnography and ethnocentrism. Are you implying that feminism is somehow ethnocentric? Because that makes no sense. Feminism is a challenge to patriarchy as it exists for the majority of women worldwide. The existence of other societies where this is not the rule does not negate or dilute this purpose.
Tara wrote: "Mehreen wrote: "Tara wrote: "Mehreen wrote: "Tara wrote: "" if you are an example of a feminist then God help us song "This qualifies as a personal comment. Let's remain civil."
Let's get this s..."
Disagreeing to what exactly?
Matthew wrote: "Mehreen wrote: "Matthew wrote: "Mehreen wrote: "Matthew wrote: "Mehreen wrote: "Tara wrote: "Mehreen wrote: "Krazykiwi wrote: "Mehreen wrote: " I never liked the idea of feminism." Interesting.
..."
Women in the West do? The majority. We are going into demographics and typical case of ethnocentric viewpoints.
Mehreen wrote: "Tara wrote: "Matthew wrote: "Tara wrote: "Matthew wrote: "Tara wrote: "Matthew wrote: "There are plenty of people out there who make the claim that "Political Correctness" is terrible and has ruine..."Their excuse for poor behavior!
Mehreen wrote: "Matthew wrote: "Mehreen wrote: "Matthew wrote: "Mehreen wrote: "Matthew wrote: "Mehreen wrote: "Tara wrote: "Mehreen wrote: "Krazykiwi wrote: "Mehreen wrote: " I never liked the idea of feminism." ..."It's ethnocentric for women in the west to fight for equality, or to recognize the vast majority of women worldwide live under patriarchal rule? That's an extremely odd take on things, considering that patriarchy is something that exists for the vast majority of people worldwide, regardless of culture.
And it's not just women in the west fighting for it, its a struggle that is taking place wherever there is a confluence of development and institutionalized sexism. Seeing this as ethnocentrism is pure idiosyncrasy, viewing things through a "western vs. non-western" ideological filter.
Mehreen wrote: "Tara wrote: "Mehreen wrote: "Tara wrote: "Mehreen wrote: "Tara wrote: "" if you are an example of a feminist then God help us song "This qualifies as a personal comment. Let's remain civil."
Let..."
Okay, that made me giggle. I'm a softie mod.
Mehreen wrote: "Tara wrote: "Mehreen wrote: "Krazykiwi wrote: "Mehreen wrote: "I don't think any gender deserves more rights. That's not the issue. I am saying that in some cultures women enjoy equal rights and po..."You don't see it as problematic that you're only focusing on women?
Mehreen wrote: "Matthew wrote: "Mehreen wrote: "Matthew wrote: "Mehreen wrote: "Matthew wrote: "Mehreen wrote: "Tara wrote: "Mehreen wrote: "Krazykiwi wrote: "Mehreen wrote: " I never liked the idea of feminism." ..."I'm not clear on your meaning here...
Matthew wrote: "Mehreen wrote: "Matthew wrote: "Mehreen wrote: "Matthew wrote: "Mehreen wrote: "Matthew wrote: "Mehreen wrote: "Tara wrote: "Mehreen wrote: "Krazykiwi wrote: "Mehreen wrote: " I never liked the ide..."It is okay to fight for rights. That is not ethnocentric but generalisation that this problem exists everywhere else is ethnocentric.
Mehreen wrote: "Matthew wrote: "Mehreen wrote: "Matthew wrote: "Mehreen wrote: "Matthew wrote: "Mehreen wrote: "Matthew wrote: "Mehreen wrote: "Tara wrote: "Mehreen wrote: "Krazykiwi wrote: "Mehreen wrote: " I nev..."How it is ethnocentric to recognize a reality? Small societies that exist outside this norm does not disprove this norm. Sounds more like a feeble attempt to dismiss the existence of patriarchy and sexism in order to dismiss feminism as a real and necessary cause.
And it's rather hypocritical too. Sexism is not restricted to the West, nor is feminism. So calling it ethnocentrism is rather misguided and intellectually confused.
Mehreen wrote: "Matthew wrote: "Mehreen wrote: "Matthew wrote: "Mehreen wrote: "Matthew wrote: "Mehreen wrote: "Matthew wrote: "Mehreen wrote: "Tara wrote: "Mehreen wrote: "Krazykiwi wrote: "Mehreen wrote: " I nev..."But it does exist nearly everywhere in the world. That's just a fact.
Matthew wrote: "Mehreen wrote: "Matthew wrote: "Mehreen wrote: "Matthew wrote: "Mehreen wrote: "Matthew wrote: "Mehreen wrote: "Matthew wrote: "Mehreen wrote: "Tara wrote: "Mehreen wrote: "Krazykiwi wrote: "Mehree..."Confused, feeble for those who have no real understanding of how those cultures work and try to make thin assessments. The feminism discussed here has nothing to do with these people I'm referring to. Why is it hypocritical to uphold a culture that you don't understand. You need to live with them to make proper assessments.
Tara wrote: "Mehreen wrote: "Tara wrote: "Mehreen wrote: "Krazykiwi wrote: "Mehreen wrote: "I don't think any gender deserves more rights. That's not the issue. I am saying that in some cultures women enjoy equ..."I don't understand. I never said I was focussing on women only.
Mehreen wrote: "Matthew wrote: "Mehreen wrote: "Matthew wrote: "Mehreen wrote: "Matthew wrote: "Mehreen wrote: "Matthew wrote: "Mehreen wrote: "Matthew wrote: "Mehreen wrote: "Tara wrote: "Mehreen wroteOne doesn't have to live with or be part of a community to understand it on a factual level. To my knowledge you are making broad statements about the US and yet you are not a citizen. You don't have to be but that is precisely my point. Out of nearly 150 countries only 6 have met the criteria for gender equality. As for your last statement I am in favor of learning from other cultures, especially when they are handling problems better than other cultures. But what countries are we talking about?
Mehreen wrote: "Tara wrote: "Mehreen wrote: "Tara wrote: "Mehreen wrote: "Krazykiwi wrote: "Mehreen wrote: "I don't think any gender deserves more rights. That's not the issue. I am saying that in some cultures wo..."Repeated attempts to understand why you don't like feminism as mostly resulted in you intimating that it is women in the West who don't support one another. I haven't heard you acknowledge that patriarchy is the problem, not the men and women victimized by it.
Mehreen wrote: "Matthew wrote: "Mehreen wrote: "Matthew wrote: "Mehreen wrote: "Matthew wrote: "Mehreen wrote: "Matthew wrote: "Mehreen wrote: "Matthew wrote: "Mehreen wrote: "Tara wrote: "Mehreen wrote: "Krazykiw..."I have plenty of understanding of those cultures. You raised these cultures in the context of claiming that feminism was somehow ethnocentric, which makes no sense whatsoever. Their existence does not somehow disprove that feminism is misguided or not needed! Clearly there is some kind of misunderstanding here.
Tara wrote: "Mehreen wrote: "Tara wrote: "Mehreen wrote: "Tara wrote: "Mehreen wrote: "Krazykiwi wrote: "Mehreen wrote: "I don't think any gender deserves more rights. That's not the issue. I am saying that in ..."I am making a comparison between your notions of feminism to that of the others. They enjoy every right that you have fought for in the West without even fighting for it. That is my take. I don't think we are not getting through to each other.
//The feminism discussed here has nothing to do with these people I'm referring to//If that is so, then why the hell did you bring them up? The entire point of the feminism discussed here is about women fighting for equal rights in cultures that are patriarchal, which constitutes the VAST MAJORITY of human beings living on this planet. Why bring up non-patriarchal societies then if you claim they are not relevant?
Matthew wrote: "//The feminism discussed here has nothing to do with these people I'm referring to//If that is so, then why the hell did you bring them up? The entire point of the feminism discussed here is abou..."
Because you said you were a historian and you wanted me to be more specific!
Mehreen wrote: "Matthew wrote: "//The feminism discussed here has nothing to do with these people I'm referring to//If that is so, then why the hell did you bring them up? The entire point of the feminism discus..."
A lot of what I disagree with is your assertion that feminism has to do with independence and that people should fight for it by not drawing attetion to themselves. How can a struggle for crucial rights be done in any other way? It's about equal rights - beginning, middle and end.
Mehreen wrote: "Matthew wrote: "//The feminism discussed here has nothing to do with these people I'm referring to//If that is so, then why the hell did you bring them up? The entire point of the feminism discus..."
Which I only asked for because you brought up such societies! These societies have nothing to do with feminism in patriarchal societies, and you admitted as such just now. So why did you bring them up in the first place?
Matthew wrote: "Mehreen wrote: "Matthew wrote: "Mehreen wrote: "Matthew wrote: "Mehreen wrote: "Matthew wrote: "Mehreen wrote: "Matthew wrote: "Mehreen wrote: "Matthew wrote: "Mehreen wrote: "Tara wrote: "Mehreen ..."Feminism and ethnocentricity? Where the hell did that come from? Ethnocentricity was used in terms of shallow understanding of cultures. The ones that you claim to have heard about. Now I know that you don't even know that they are non-patrarchal. I thought you said you knew them well.
Their women have more rights than any in the West.
Mehreen wrote: "Matthew wrote: "Mehreen wrote: "Matthew wrote: "Mehreen wrote: "Matthew wrote: "Mehreen wrote: "Matthew wrote: "Mehreen wrote: "Matthew wrote: "Mehreen wrote: "Matthew wrote: "Mehreen wrote: "Tara ..."From you! You kept bringing up ethnocentrism! And yes, I know that such societies exist. And just to be fair, you only mentioned two societies (both of which are in India/Pakistan). But their existence does not in any way disprove the existence of patriarchy anywhere else or the need for feminism! In fact, the existence of such societies is irrelevant to what we are talking about here. Which, again, you just said!!!
Do you even understand what we are discussing? Because you're questioning my referencing things you bring up. Just what is your argument here because as much as I can tell, we are talking about entirely different things.
Mehreen wrote: "Matthew wrote: "Mehreen wrote: "Matthew wrote: "Mehreen wrote: "Matthew wrote: "Mehreen wrote: "Matthew wrote: "Mehreen wrote: "Matthew wrote: "Mehreen wrote: "Matthew wrote: "Mehreen wrote: "Tara ..."Why do you keep focusing on Western women? I don't understand this...
Mehreen wrote: "Matthew wrote: "Mehreen wrote: "Matthew wrote: "Mehreen wrote: "Matthew wrote: "Mehreen wrote: "Matthew wrote: "Mehreen wrote: "Matthew wrote: "Mehreen wrote: "Matthew wrote: "Mehreen wrote: "Tara ..."And, just to lay it for you, those matrilineal societies exist only in small pockets of civilization and tiny communities. Any society that has been organized on larger scales and with scarcity in mind has been patriarchal in nature. This is not "ethnocentrism", but a pervasive pattern that has happened all across Asia, Africa, Eurasia, and the Americas.
But thanks to development and improvements in material conditions, this basis of society has been challenged for what it is - a throwback to primitive eras where deprivation was the norm. If you're take is this is strictly cultural, then I would have to say you need to take another look at the situation. Culture takes it cue from material conditions, and is forced to change when those conditions change.
Feminism is the modern challenge to primitive patriarchy, and will be here to stay so long as the world continues to evolve and modernize.
Matthew wrote: "Mehreen wrote: "Matthew wrote: "Mehreen wrote: "Matthew wrote: "Mehreen wrote: "Matthew wrote: "Mehreen wrote: "Matthew wrote: "Mehreen wrote: "Matthew wrote: "Mehreen wrote: "Matthew wrote: "Mehre..."Yes!
Tara wrote: "Matthew wrote: "Mehreen wrote: "Matthew wrote: "Mehreen wrote: "Matthew wrote: "Mehreen wrote: "Matthew wrote: "Mehreen wrote: "Matthew wrote: "Mehreen wrote: "Matthew wrote: "Mehreen wrote: "Matth..."Methinks English is not her first language and we might be experiencing a "clash of cultures". Sorry to be so crass, but this level of misunderstanding is hard to attribute to anything else.
Matthew wrote: "Tara wrote: "Matthew wrote: "Mehreen wrote: "Matthew wrote: "Mehreen wrote: "Matthew wrote: "Mehreen wrote: "Matthew wrote: "Mehreen wrote: "Matthew wrote: "Mehreen wrote: "Matthew wrote: "Mehreen ..."Perhaps this may be the case because in other aspects she is a beautiful writer and very much a humanitarian in her beliefs.
Tara wrote: "Matthew wrote: "Tara wrote: "Matthew wrote: "Mehreen wrote: "Matthew wrote: "Mehreen wrote: "Matthew wrote: "Mehreen wrote: "Matthew wrote: "Mehreen wrote: "Matthew wrote: "Mehreen wrote: "Matthew ..."I support and condone that in the extreme. And if her point is that women can be enjoy freedom or more rights without the need for challenging cultural norms that we consider normal ('round her), I would say "power that shit!" If only the rest of the world believed the same...
Matthew said:"I support and condone that in the extreme. And if her point is that women can be enjoy freedom or more rights without the need for challenging cultural norms that we consider normal ('round her), I would say "power that shit!" If only the rest of the world believed the same..."Matthew, I am guessing this is a typo in your statement here: "Women can be enjoy??? What do you mean? Or is English not your first language? The problem here is neither that of language nor culture but lack of our understanding and empathy about the world, cultures and peoples.
What you consider "normal" is not what most of the cultures consider "normal". And this is exactly where your lesson should begin...in your narrow definition of cultures and language.
Mehreen wrote: "I support and condone that in the extreme. And if her point is that women can be enjoy freedom or more rights without the need for challenging cultural norms that we consider normal ('round her), I..."I think failing to endorse feminism falls into tnis category, sadly. I believe you have been exposed to erroneous examples of the movement and will only interpret it in a negative light.
Tara wrote: "Mehreen wrote: "I support and condone that in the extreme. And if her point is that women can be enjoy freedom or more rights without the need for challenging cultural norms that we consider normal..."Where have I gone wrong in my understanding of Western feminism? Gender equality. You are saying I misinterpreted all this?
Mehreen wrote: "Tara wrote: "Mehreen wrote: "I support and condone that in the extreme. And if her point is that women can be enjoy freedom or more rights without the need for challenging cultural norms that we co..."Yes. You have asserted that it is a primarily Western problem and that it is about independence. Both incorrect.
Tara wrote: "Mehreen wrote: "Tara wrote: "Mehreen wrote: "I support and condone that in the extreme. And if her point is that women can be enjoy freedom or more rights without the need for challenging cultural ..."I have also said it is about gender equality. And yes, it is a Western problem. According to many cultures there is equality without having to fight for it. Independence is a feminist problem too in the West. There was a time women were not allowed to vote and did not have right to free speech. How are these two not related?
Mehreen wrote: "Tara wrote: "Mehreen wrote: "Tara wrote: "Mehreen wrote: "I support and condone that in the extreme. And if her point is that women can be enjoy freedom or more rights without the need for challeng..."A lack of equality carries with it a lack of freedom but saying the fight is about independence is not telling the whole story nor is it quite accurate. For example the abolition of slavery was about independence while the Civil Rights Act of 1964-5 was about equality. And how can you possibly say gender inequality is a Western problem? Have you ever heard of Asia, Europe, Africa, South America etc? I'm beyond the ability to understand this given the atrocious treatment of women in Pakistan, India, Korea, China, Thailand, Saudi Arabia, Syria etc etc etc. yet it's a Western issue??
Tara wrote: "Mehreen wrote: "Tara wrote: "Mehreen wrote: "Tara wrote: "Mehreen wrote: "I support and condone that in the extreme. And if her point is that women can be enjoy freedom or more rights without the n..."I am taking issue with the word, "independence". Womens' lib movement stipulates that men and women be independent of each other. It is a loaded word. We could start an entire thread on this. However, I shall say this the way feminism is understood in the West is not the same way it is perceived in those aforementioned cultures. Imposing Western feminism might even destroy their social fabric. Many of them actually feel that there is "gender equality" there. If that's what you mean by feminism that is. Cruelty is everywhere regardless of the prevalence of such concepts. That is a different issue altogether.
I would like to think I am a "humanist" rather than "feminist".
Matthew wrote: "Tara wrote: "Matthew wrote: "Mehreen wrote: "Matthew wrote: "Mehreen wrote: "Matthew wrote: "Mehreen wrote: "Matthew wrote: "Mehreen wrote: "Matthew wrote: "Mehreen wrote: "Matthew wrote: "Mehreen ..."Read my comment number 84.
Humanist and feminist do not have to be mutually exclusive.On another note, the term, feminism, is a particularly western concept, in fact even more specific than that, a term that originated in the US in the 60s, I believe.
"What's in a name?" (Per the original OP)
Alex G wrote: "Humanist and feminist do not have to be mutually exclusive.On another note, the term, feminism, is a particularly western concept, in fact even more specific than that, a term that originated in ..."
It is a Western concept and a Western problem as well. "Gender equality" in many cultures around the world is not an issue at all. They just have it in their cultures. Cruelty towards women and domestic violence are not feminist issues. These are social problems.
Well, feminism may simply be a way to protest and fight back against cruelty towards women and domestic violence.
From a brief look, it does look like everyone here supports gender equality as the common denominator. Can understand that some may not like the movement or think that it ignores physiological and psychological differences. How do you go about them, btw? Should there be a difference between mother and father in the family? Is chivalry that Joanne mentioned in post 10 contradictory to it?
I think a lot of women certainly support equality, but still want to feel women, to be courted and stuff -:)
Don't know whether it's a good example, but trade unions probably did a lot for workers, yet many don't like them.
Just coming back here. I just think that if we go back to the original question it may help. It seems that we are looking at words and how people react when they hear them. "feminism" has a negative connotation for some. This is an unfortunate truth. However, with women's struggle for equality, we don't want to give up what the word represents. So going back to the original question which I believe was "does the label need a makeover" I say "yes, it does". We need to search the thesaurus for a word or words that do not cause the same negative reaction that feminism often does. I think the challenge of this discussion is to look toward that goal. I still see equality as the best word. That is inclusive for everyone.
Also just as a,side note, I am reading a Victorian novel called Middlemarch by George Elliott. It was really written by a female writer. The book is off the beaten track for a Victotian novel and she takes some risks by making social commentary. If a,writer would be labeled a feminist I think she would. At any rate, to understand feminism, I think it would be a good idea to read that book.
Mehreen wrote: "Tara wrote: "Mehreen wrote: "Tara wrote: "Mehreen wrote: "Tara wrote: "Mehreen wrote: "I support and condone that in the extreme. And if her point is that women can be enjoy freedom or more rights ..."That is absolutely not what the women's liberation movement was about. It was and is about not being denied equality because you are a woman. No to feminists are alike, nor should they be. But any feminist anywhere in the world believes in equality plain and simple. Anything other than this is not pure feminism.
But who is oppressing women?