The Pickwick Club discussion
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Great Expectations
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GE, Chapters 03-04
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Linda wrote: "Ami wrote: " I couldn't understand what exactly it was Joe kept putting all that gravy on-He hardly had any food on his plate?! LOL!"Ha ha! In one instance didn't Joe ladle on a half-pint (or ful..."
YES! LoL! He had a plate full of gravy?
Kim wrote: "When I was a kid I hated vegetables, so did my sister, the memories from our childhood eating experiences are still with her, she still hates vegetables. The kind you cook that is. I always loved t..."What a story, Kim! In a timely coincidence, I was reminiscing with my husband the other day about my mother's vegetables. With the exception of iceburg lettuce and tomatoes from my dad's garden, every vegetable that made its way on to our plates came from a frozen block. I can't remember her ever dicing an onion or pepper. Once a year or so, we might have corn on the cob, but it was rare. Miraculously, I somehow still became a vegetarian and discovered the joy of fresh vegetables!
Kim wrote: "My mom used to do that all the time, she would tell us that no, she wasn't going to church she had too much to do getting the Sunday dinner ready (which was always burnt) but we would go in her place."Sounds a bit like my mom. My wife is a regular church-goer, and I think she represents our whole family when she is there.
Ami wrote: "Tristram wrote: "Ami wrote: "It reminded me of the scene in David Copperfield when a very young David is traveling to the seaside in a carriage and essentially treated like a piece of luggage throu..."When you've got a lot of gravy on your plate, all you need is a good chunk of bread ;-) Mmmmh.
Ami wrote: "Kim wrote: "When I was a kid I hated vegetables, so did my sister, the memories from our childhood eating experiences are still with her, she still hates vegetables. The kind you cook that is. I al..."I remember when I prepared spinach for the first time. I only like spinach when there are whole leaves, not that kind of minced stuff with crème fraîche but leaves, with some garlic in between. Anyway, I put two or three handfuls of spinach into the frying-pan, and then I turned around to do something else, and I said to a friend of mine, with whom I was cooking, that maybe we would have too much spinach - and lo! I looked again at the pan, and the whole pile of leaves had just about disappeared. Vegetables are tricky, but sometimes rewarding.
Brown vegetables---sounds very Dickensian!
Is your pine tar soap like our coal tar sop? I always think it smells quite nice - though not a fragrant sort of smell admittedly.That episode made me think of Mrs. Squeers, with her dosing of all the children in Dotheboys Hall, so they wouldn't be hungry.
Tristram wrote: "I don't know about the tar-water, either. Pip had prepared some Spanish-liquorice-Water in another bottle, and maybe with that he diluted the brandy.."I think in the dark and his haste he just grabbed the wrong bottle. Probably no running water in the cottage, so just go to the sink and turn on the tap to refill the bottle as a modern boy would.
Now, in fact, diluting the brandy would have been a major mistake, and one Pip would have been prone to make in his fear. Sober reflection would have told him that, what with those two convicts at large, stolen victuals from pantries would be put down to them. So, in a way, he need not really have worried too much over the loss of the pie and the other food; only he should not have diluted the brandy - if he had at all - because that would not have fitted into the picture since a thief from outside would not have taken the trouble to cover up his theft.
Tristram asks:"As before, what do you make of Mrs. Gargery? What might be her feelings for her younger brother in particular? Consider the following quotation:”I was always treated as if I had insisted on being born in opposition to the dictates of reason, religion, and morality, and against the dissuading arguments of my best friends. Even when I was taken to have a new suit of clothes, the tailor had orders to make them like a kind of Reformatory, and on no account to let me have the free use of my limbs.”
Again, what do you think of the first perspective here? How are we made to participate in Pip’s anguish at having stolen the food from his sister’s pantry? "
I think that a lot of the novel is about Pip's search for identity--right in the very first paragraph of the novel we learn about his name and it's peculiar history. His identity as a child is certainly formed by his sister's verbal abuse---and that also makes him possible feel a stronger kinship with Joe, who has a much different perspective on young Pip.
Pip is very open with his readers, but we soon see that he is surrounded by a circle of hypocrites, alleviated only by Joe.
Mr. Pumblechook is related to Pip's sister in using the "bringing up by hand" narrative and then moving to a discussion where Pip is implicitly compares to pork---swine---a four footed squeaker.
Just as Pip's sister seems to identify herself as a sort of Christian martyr, she identifies Pip as an objectionable animal.
And yet such is the skill of the author, that Pip appears to make light of his remembered difficulties and indignities. We might be horrified at his inhumane treatment - and yet we are entertained by the ridiculous images Dickens paints, and his sarcastic asides :)
Oh I do not like Mrs joe!Perhaps she fears for her young brother but I don't buy it. And poor Joe too. She is a horrible specimen of a woman. A really bully ...
Tristram wrote: "Sober reflection would have told him that, what with those two convicts at large, stolen victuals from pantries would be put down to them.."I'm not sure sober reflection was within his capability, especially given the passage that Natalie quoted in message 118 of the Chapters 1&2 thread.
Hilary wrote: "Oh I do not like Mrs joe!."She's not likeable, but then, she doesn't have an easy life. They apparently have no servant at all, which I think was a bit unusual for a blacksmith who was, after all, a skilled workman with his own business. Servants, especially young girls, were very cheap at the time. But she had to do all the housework, with none of today's labor saving devices, herself, all the cooking and cleaning and washing (a major chore) and all. And she had to look after a younger brother who doesn't seem, from what we're told, to do much work around the house to help out. (If he does, he doesn't mention it.) And Joe, while he's a very happy-go-lucky, friendly fellow, doesn't seem to do much to help out; he's constantly sitting here and there while his wife does the work.
It's easy to be cheerful when you have a comfortable life. It's a lot harder when you're slaving away day after day after day with no hope of any relief and your two possible helpers seemingly (from what Pip says) in sympathetic league against you.
I don't like her all that much either, but I wish Joe and Pip would show a bit more concern for her happiness and welfare. Maybe then she could be a more likeable person.
Natalie wrote: "”I was always treated as if I had insisted on being born in opposition to the dictates of reason, religion, and morality, and against the dissuading arguments of my best friends. Even when I was taken to have a new suit of clothes, the tailor had orders to make them like a kind of Reformatory, and on no account to let me have the free use of my limbs.”
Again, what do you think of the first perspective here? "
The first question we have to ask is, how reliable is Pip as narrator? He is, after all, writing this obviously many years after the fact (though I don't recall that we are told, at least not yet, how many years). Many adults tend to exaggerate the hardships they faced as children.
Do we really believe that the tailor was told to make the clothes as uncomfortable as possible? Frankly, I doubt that. He might have been told to conserve on fabric, or to make them plain, or such, but to make them intentionally uncomfortable? A tailor who wants the custom of the village would hardly make deliberately uncomfortable clothing.
And what "best friends" does he have who would have been around at his birth to argue against it? This seems clearly hyperbole at best, and flat dishonesty at worst.
These examples make me suspicious that he is, whether consciously or unconsciously, grossly exaggerating the misery of his childhood at least in these instances, which makes me wonder how reliable he is in the other episodes and treatment he recounts.
Thank you, Everyman, for an enlightening post. I do think part of the pleasure in reading GE is in evaluating how Pip tells his story and how he casts himself. Using adult language to reflect back upon his childhood memories, he can either make us doubt his reliability or make us BELIEVE in his reliability because he is tacitly admitting that his subjective impressions were exaggerated all along and he is relating them as they were. I think at some point he says that his hair "literally stands on end" and we know that cannot happen.I can tell you that when I was younger than Pip I fully believed and realized that universal doom and destruction would occur if I were ever to be made to drive a car. I believed it would be the cataclysmic end of the world. I was wrong. But my beliefs were sincere--to me at the time.
Everyman wrote: "I'm not sure sober reflection was within his capability"Oh, most definitely not.
Everyman wrote: "Hilary wrote: "Oh I do not like Mrs joe!."She's not likeable, but then, she doesn't have an easy life. They apparently have no servant at all, which I think was a bit unusual for a blacksmith who..."
I like the point you make about Mrs. Joe doing all the housework and about the daily chores in Victorian homes being much more strenuous than they are today. Laundry, for instance, was such a drudgery that one part of the week was set off only for washing a family's clothes. If I remember Ruth Goodman in How to be a Victorian correctly, it started the night before with mending the clothes (hardly anyone mends their clothes nowadays although I have memories of my grandmother darning socks and elbows), and it would take most of the ensuing day. Then keeping the fire in the hearth alive was another laborious thing ...
And let's not forget that, as Everyman said, Joe and Pip often seem to be in league against Mrs. Joe, who had every reason for being grumpy. Apart from that, as I said before, I cannot help thinking that maybe Mrs. Joe is also so bitter because her husband seems like a big child rather than a man.
This brings me on to Pip as an unreliable narrator. As yet we don't know anything about the Pip who is telling the story in retrospect, not his age, not his profession, not his family status. Nothing. Some information on that side might be useful if we want to figure out how far we can trust his account of his childhood days. There are clearly very mature reflexions - e.g. when he muses on how fear can make a little child do anything -, there are situations when we see the action through the eyes of the child - e.g. the first encounter with the convict and the memory of being turned upside down by the felon - and there are passages when the narrator uses humour and hyperboles in order to give us an idea of his childhood tribulations, e.g. when he talks about the suits tailored for him, or the ox in the marshes that looks at him so suspiciously when he takes the stolen food to the convict that Pip starts apologizing to the animal. We don't really know whether that really happened, or whether Pip the elder is not making this up for the sake of illustration. What if Pip the narrator is a writer, after all? Then he would not be able to resist the temptation of dramatizing events just to make his account more interesting to the reader. He might also want to describe his sister in a less favourable light in order to find excuses for things he might do in the course of the story. We have yet a lot to find out about Pip, the unreliable narrator.
Tristram wrote: "This brings me on to Pip as an unreliable narrator. As yet we don't know anything about the Pip who is telling the story in retrospect, not his age, not his profession, not his family status. Nothi..."Yes. The unreliable narrator issue rises again, as it did in DC. Like everyone, I find it a fascinating question to ask, to follow, and, ultimately to pass judgement on.
We are still early in the narrative, but hopefully we will continue to watch for the clues, phrases, contradictions and insights we gain as we follow Pip and his great expectations.
As regards Pip as an unreliable narrator, I think the adult Pip is doing his best to recount things as he saw them as a child. Abused children can have very clear memories of their abusers. I just can't cut Mrs Joe the slack that some do-- we don't know her history, but we know that Joe is tolerant and understanding of her, so whatever her childhood was like, she needs to get over it. You would think that if she had suffered as a girl, she might be more loving to Pip. On the other hand, we know that abused children often grow up to be abusers themselves. I tend to think that Pip is being as accurate a narrator as he is able. So far, nothing seems to me to be so far-fetched that he has recounted.
Shame on me for making this comment, but when I was reading these chapters last night (admittedly, whilst dozing off) I had a curious image in my head when I read the description of Mr Pumblechook as having "a mouth like a fish" and "sandy hair standing upright on his head". Dare I say it, but a rotund version of Mr Trump sprang into mind. Oh dear.
I don't have anything else to add to what has been said, other than I'm in agreeance with the unreliable narrator (as I posted on the previous chapters).I also concur with Everyman about Mrs Joe. I know Dickens wants his audience to see Pip as the sweet innocent child, but I think I would be a cranky woman too, having to look after a kid who wasn't mine (even if he is a sibling). Boys being boys, in any era, I am sure he was more of a handful than his older self likes to admit. Also, as Tristram mentioned, life was really hard for women in terms of domestic chores and I agree that Joe, although he is represented as a kindhearted gentle man, would be frustrating to any wife.
Dickens is in his prime, throwing around the emotive language, descriptions and hyperboles. Fantastic reading!
Kate wrote: "Shame on me for making this comment, but when I was reading these chapters last night (admittedly, whilst dozing off) I had a curious image in my head when I read the description of Mr Pumblechook ..."I know we are not supposed to do politics here, except of the Victorian variety, but now I am stuck with the image you have conjured up of our Tweeter-in Chief!
Lynne wrote: "Kate wrote: "Shame on me for making this comment, but when I was reading these chapters last night (admittedly, whilst dozing off) I had a curious image in my head when I read the description of Mr..."I do apologise Lynne, that you will have to suffer on my behalf. My imagination does funny things! I love the title "Tweeter-in-Chief". It is so apt.
Lynne wrote: "I adore the Pickwickians!!!"(thumbs up)
Lynne wrote: "I adore the Pickwickians!!!"I would, too, except my wife might get a bit jealous.
Everyman wrote: "Lynne wrote: "I adore the Pickwickians!!!"I would, too, except my wife might get a bit jealous."
LOL.
Who is this Mr. Trump you all keep referring to? Should I google him?
You do realize you stroke his ego by googling him. He counts.
Xan Shadowflutter wrote: "He counts."And if more than ten people google him?
Tristram wrote: "Xan Shadowflutter wrote: "He counts."And if more than ten people google him?"
Twenty. He has all his toes.
Everyman, you are more than kind in your analysis of Mrs Joe. As others have said (Lynne, Kate?) it didn't occur to me to feel any sympathy for her at all. I suppose when growing up I heard of many such stories of women's hard domestic work. One of my grandmothers not only worked on the farm, she cleaned, cooked, mended, walked about 4 miles round trip to get groceries in town, churned butter and sold it (at a very low price) and ... Oh and about hair standing up on end: it's a stress response causing goosebumps which in turn cause the hairs on the arms and legs to rise, so he could well have felt as though his hair was standing on end.
Xan Shadowflutter wrote: "Tristram wrote: "Xan Shadowflutter wrote: "He counts."And if more than ten people google him?"
Twenty. He has all his toes."
Using his toes to count would leave him no legs to stand on.
Tristram wrote: "Xan Shadowflutter wrote: "Tristram wrote: "Xan Shadowflutter wrote: "He counts."And if more than ten people google him?"
Twenty. He has all his toes."
Using his toes to count would leave him no..."
That is one of the best "groaners" I have read today!
Um...that cough syrup has chloroform in it?? Eww. Not knowing what "minims" were and wanting to know how much chloroform was actually in there, I looked it up:
minim = "one sixtieth of a fluid dram, about one drop of liquid"
So 4 minims would be 4 drops of chloroform, but in what - the total bottle? The prescribed teaspoon? Even so, a mere 4 drops of chloroform would stink. Yuk.