Week ending 01/07 Swann's way - till page 64

[Rajesh]

First week... thought I will start the thread for the first week. So, anyone wants to get the discussion started? I have a few pages to go.

[Petra]

I'm not sure where that is in the story. In my version, page 69 is in the middle of a section. Is this correct?

But, to get started....
I like this family. It's eccentric and funny. I laughed when Grandma ran back from the garden to stop her husband from drinking the cognac, when the aunts "thanked" Swann for the case of wine and when the narrator spoke of "sensual pleasure" in the only room with a locked door.
The narrator seems like a very sensitive fellow. It's kind of sweet.
Also, this family seems to stay with other family members for long periods of time (months with Grandpa & Grandma, as well as months in Combray with Auntie). When are they at home? :D

[Lori]

I too love this family. There is such humor in the depiction of Leonie, Francoise, the aunts. The characters play with hidden meanings and secrets (what they know about Swann, what they don't know or don't want to know about him, how literal they have to be in thanking him for the wine) - while the author plays with his own hidden meanings and how literal he himself needs to be as he recounts the tales. What is his own hidden subtext about the intentions in writing about Swann, who is such a mysterious character with a life hidden from the family as a stockbroker (in French- agent de change, agent of change.)

I'm also interested in the parallel between Leonie upstairs in her bed and Marcel upstairs in his -with Francoise as messenger- delivering Marcel's note to his mother, or keeping Leonie abreast of the goings-on

[Lori]

Also want to say about the first ten pages or so-

I'm struck by the wonderful sense of time collapsing in on itself- all different moments in the narrator's life

literal reading- waking up in rooms and being disoriented
figurative- waking up from death -- the scales upon his eyes feel like a symbol of death. Waking up in the darkness, disoriented (am I sleeping aka has my own candle extinguished?...), without even the time to say not only that I'm falling asleep but that I am dying. State of consciousness/unconsciouness like life/death.

Or maybe it's even like being born... Disoriented, coming from darkness into the light.
And we as readers participating in this birth- as we become acquainted with his world.

[Lori]

Petra wrote: "I'm not sure where that is in the story. In my version, page 69 is in the middle of a section. Is this correct?

But, to get started....
I like this family. It's eccentric and funny. I laughed whe..."
it's a good point- when are they at home? I don't know! it must just be summer and easter time that they visit and the rest of the time in Paris? but the majority of the memories come from Combray- you're right!

[Ben]

Apart from the introduction to some of the characters, this section contains the iconic scene about the little tea-soaked madeleine that evoked all those memories in the narrator. It is a key episode in the novel, as it vividly illustrates the difference between voluntary and involuntary memory -- a theme that will be repeated at different stages of the novel, most dramatically in the final book, 'Time regained'. (And disclosing it at this stage does not, I believe, amount to a spoiler.) Be that as it may, in the exposition that occupies more than 5 pages, one sees Proust at his best.
For a painting, 'Marcel and the madeleine' by David Richardson, see:
https://za.pinterest.com/pin/26099774...

[Ben]

This section of the book also describes in some detail the little town of Combray, which forms the backdrop to the first part of the work. It is well known that, with Proust having put Illiers 'on the map', as it were, the people of Illiers decided, in 1971, to change the town's name to 'Illiers-Combray', on the occasion of the first centenary of the author's birth as a tribute to Proust's literary masterpiece.
I would suggest that a visit to the town should be on any Proustian's bucket list.
Here is a link to a photograph taken in May 2015 during our group's 'pilgrimmage' to the home of Tante Leonie, now the Proust Museum, led by the incomparable Prof Bill Carter (Proust's biographer) :
https://za.pinterest.com/pin/42924940...
And here are some general pictures of the town:
https://za.pinterest.com/0dx56ysmcpm1...

[Ben]

By the way, this time I am reading Prof Carter's edited and annotated version of 'Swann's Way', published by Yale in 2013. The selective footnotes (or rather marginal notes) add considerably to the enjoyment of the read.

[Petra]

Ben, that's a lovely town! The spire is impressive. I can see why Proust described it in such detail. It's an interesting addition to the background.
I like Aunt Leonie's house. It's nice to have a picture in my mind of her living abode.
Swann's home is interesting.
That trip must have been amazing. Thanks for sharing.

[Natalie]

I love it! I like the "voice" of our narrator. I can understand the child, I think, with his anxieties about his mother. Generally it seems like a graceful way of life.

I am not sure that I am on the same page: I have the Lydia Davis translation but will, I think, revert to the Moncrieff/Kilmartin.

Thank you so much, Ben, for the photographs. I have lingered over them with fascination.

[Ben]

Petra wrote: "Ben, that's a lovely town! The spire is impressive. I can see why Proust described it in such detail. It's an interesting addition to the background.
I like Aunt Leonie's house. It's nice to have ..."
One must be careful, though, in not taking all Proust's descriptions too literally. He freely mixed and matched features gathered from different churches in describing the church in Combray. The same happened in other respects as well. A bit of 'poetic license', I suppose . . .

[Natalie]

“The fault I find with our journalism is that it forces us to take an interest in some fresh triviality or other every day, whereas only three or four books in a lifetime give us anything that is of real importance.”

–Charles Swann, in Marcel Proust, Swann’s Way, pp. 27-28
trans. Moncrieff, and Kilmartin

[Dan]

Ben wrote: "Petra wrote: "Ben, that's a lovely town! The spire is impressive. I can see why Proust described it in such detail. It's an interesting addition to the background.
I like Aunt Leonie's house. It's..."
One must be careful, though, in not taking all Proust's descriptions too literally.

Proust's ability to describe and analyze things and people is remarkable. As for not taking things too literally, I'd agree with a qualifier. Of course he is "mixing and matching" features and personalities. It's fiction. But he often also describes things from different points of view, or perspectives. As he does here with the church.
But he also will show us, in great detail, characters in this volume, and then the same characters very differently in the next. Characters will "change" as he/we get to know them better, just as would happen in life. When we first meet someone, or see something, we see only a bit of what there is to see (or know) about a person, or a painting, etc.

[Rajesh]

While I am enjoying the book, the memories and the acute, but beautiful observations, one of the items that stood out for me is the stark contrast between how the first and the early part of the second chapter worked on me. The first chapter gave the impression of fluidity – physical movement, thoughts, aromas, etc., in effect working on me as a slow movie. But the second starts with the objective of trying to create a painting in my mind of the town, the objective to still create a clear idea, but using only just enough colors and shapes, but not all the detail. Both very enjoyably done, but different in how they worked on me. Anyone else had that impression?

[Dan]

The first part of the first section is an "Overture". (I think it was actually titled that in the Moncrief editions) As with a symphony, in this first part (up through the madeline and tea) Proust is giving you some motifs and themes that will be explored in the rest of the work. All the pieces do tie together, amazingly, but not until you hear (read) the whole piece.

[Natalie]

I thought it was worth mentioning the narrator's thoughts and feelings about the church. The Church has quite a major role in his life and his description seems to be more of an art appreciator and a lover of color and beauty and history than a religious person.

[Marcelita]

Dan wrote: "But he also will show us, in great detail, characters in this volume, and then the same characters very differently in the next. Characters will "change" as he/we get to know them better, just as would happen in life. When we first meet someone, or see something, we see only a bit of what there is to see (or know) about a person, or a painting, etc. .."

Hum...would recommend placing any spoilers in brackets.
Spoiler: (view spoiler)[... (hide spoiler)]

The magic of Proust is in the discovery.

[Dan]

I don't understand what I needed to not spoil. I didn't mention or allude to any character or event.

You have a different definition of "spoilers" than I do. As Ben mentioned above, Proust does have themes that will be illustrated and re-illustrated. The Narrator was numerous "different people"in the first thirty pages. Proust likes to describe "himself" and others (and churches and spires) from different, sometimes very different perspectives.

Specifically, my comment was in response to another of Ben's where he suggested to some one that they not take Proust "too literally." My perspective is that one should take everything literally, because Proust does, and that people and church towers look different at different times, from different angles, after different experiences, and that the layering of all these differences and the analysis of these differences as they happen is kind of why Proust wrote the book, and why people read and re-read it.

Some of us here have read this book before; some are first reading it, like you. This group, as I understand it, is for both types of readers. . If comments on the authors' style or techniques are spoilers to you, I would recommend skipping my comments.

[Petra]

Dan wrote: "My perspective is that one should take everything literally, because Proust does, and that people and church towers look different at different times, from different angles, after different experiences, and that the layering of all these differences and the analysis of these differences as they happen ..."

What I like about Proust's descriptions is just what you stated here, Dan: that a thing, a person, a situation is different depending upon perspective and if we see the thing, person, situation from as many perspectives as we can, we get a truer picture and understanding of it.
Your statement also shows that when a group of people see a thing, person, situation each from a different perspective, their discussions about it could show very different points of view....all correct from the perspective that the individual stands, yet all different and incomplete.
This concept shows clearly where everyday misconceptions and differences may happen between people when really they are talking of the same thing and in the same way....just different perspectives.
I like how Proust shows this in his "rambly" writing.

ETA: your full comment suggests that looking at life from different perspectives is a recurring theme throughout the series. I agree that this is not a spoiler.

[Marcelita]

Dan wrote: "I don't understand what I needed to not spoil. I didn't mention or allude to any character or event.

You have a different definition of "spoilers" than I do. As Ben mentioned above, Proust does ha..."

(view spoiler)[ Dan, I remember so clearly how surprised and unsettled I felt, when the characters I thought I knew in SW...suddenly began acting out of character in subsequent volumes.

Maybe, I want other first-time readers to discover, viscerally, the path Proust planned for us to take. (Or at least give them the option of discovering for themselves. However, we may graciously agree to disagree.)

As I have posted elsewhere, I am a strong advocate, like Antoine Compagnon, in reading Proust, for the first-time, "innocently."
Sadly, I am a purest, as I first read Proust as he intended. (See his words below.)

Proust described in a letter to René Blum, in 1913, his structure for the novel and that he expected his readers to experience this dramatic change in his characters.

This is from Carter's biography:

"On Sunday evening, February 23, Proust wrote a letter to Blum to thank him for his trouble. He mentioned the possibility of putting his novel up for the Prix Goncourt, if that would please Grasset. [...] In the postscript, as an afterthought, the novelist offered this description of the work he wanted to publish:

'I don’t know whether I told you that this book is a novel. At least it’s from the novel form that it departs least. There is a person who narrates and who says I; there are a great many characters; they are "prepared" in this first volume, in such a way that in the second they will do exactly the opposite of what one would have expected from the first. From the publisher’s point of view, unfortunately, the first volume is much less narrative than the second. And from the point of view of composition, it is so complex that it only becomes clear much later when all the "themes" have begun to coalesce.'"

William C. Carter's biography, "Marcel Proust: A Life"

Selected Letters, Vol 3 (pp. 157-159)
#94 To René Blum [Sunday evening, 23 February 1913]


Another letter, to Jacques Rivière, echoes Blum's.

[Friday, 6 February 1914]
#144 in Selected Letters, Vol. 3 (pp. 232-234)

Excerpts:
1. “…my book is a dogmatic work with a structure”

2. “I thought it more honourable and tactful as an artist not to let it be seen, not to proclaim that I was setting out precisely in search of the Truth nor to say what it consisted for me.”

3. “…only at the end of the book, when the lessons of life have been grasped, [will] my design will become clear.”

4. “Bois de Boulogne at end of volume one ‘as a sort of screen’…it is the opposite of my conclusion. It’s a stage, apparently subjective and dilettante, on the way towards the most objective and affirmative conclusion.”

5. “If anyone were to infer therefrom that my philosophy is a disenchanted skepticism, it would be [as if] a theatre-goer [misunderstands Wagner...] "

Marcel Proust

One theme: You can never know another person. (hide spoiler)]

[Dan]

Kumbaya.

3000 pages to go.

[Lori]

regarding spoilers and reading the work through the first time 'innocently...' I'm not sure how one could avoid reading in this way- innocently. To me, the Proustian reading experience - unlike page turners with major plot points- is slow immersion. Perhaps the key word is 'experience.' If someone had told me ahead of time what it was like to have a baby, raise a child, etc., (spoilers about becoming a parent) maybe I would have understood somewhat, but not really, until I myself experienced it in all its fullness. And since Proust is writing in this ageless way spoken of by Elizabeth (? I think perhaps in another thread), he's layering the experience so that the reader will notice what they'll notice when they're ready to notice it. Some of us are younger readers, some older.

[Marcelita]

Lori wrote: "regarding spoilers and reading the work through the first time 'innocently...' I'm not sure how one could avoid reading in this way- innocently. To me, the Proustian reading experience - unlike pag..."

Reading 'innocently?'
Some take the position that the novel is "a mystery!"
Thus, reading the last pages first, or knowing ahead of time what happens to the characters, will spoil the joy of experiencing Proust's brilliantly constructed masterpiece.

The surprises are stunning.

And although re-readers are continually finding new layers/perspectives (Bernard-Henri Lévy recently wrote about Proust referencing the 'Zohar' (view spoiler)[http://lithub.com/the-genius-of-judaism/ (hide spoiler)]), there is nothing that compares to the exhilaration of reading The Search for the first time.

Lori, had to smile at your motherhood references. You are correct; there are no words that could explain. When I see a woman pregnant for the first-time, I think to myself, "Life, as you know it, will never be the same."

Some readers have even had the identical experience, after reading Proust. ;)

[Dan]

Life is a "mystery". I read to help figure it out.

[Dawn]

David ~ I do love this quote and I love going through life seeking mysteries to solve or seeking answers ! As Dorothy Parker said , " The cure for boredom is curiosity. There is no cure for curiosity "!

HA!
Dawn

[Elizabeth]

Literarty note: Proust wrote the last pages, the very last pages, of ISOLT first. Then spent, oh, 8 or 10 years leading up to it...

[Marcelita]

Elizabeth wrote: "Literarty note: Proust wrote the last pages, the very last pages, of ISOLT first. Then spent, oh, 8 or 10 years leading up to it..."

“You will read me--more of me than you will want--for I’ve just begun—and finished--a whole long book.”
Marcel Proust, in a letter to Geneviève Straus, in August 1909.
Selected Letters, Vol. 2, pp 445-46.

More from "Proust's Deadline" by Christine M. Cano.
Page 12:
https://books.google.com/books?id=2mt...