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The Glorious Heresies
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The Glorious Heresies - Chapters 14 to 26 and Whole book, Some Spoilers Allowed (January 2017)
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Most of the characters who engage or had engaged with the church seem to feel judged, helped too-little-too-late, or felt insulted by its hypocrisy and ineptitude. I'm trying to recall if there was anything positive about religion or the church--was there? Georgie gets taken in at some point, but that seems like a mixed bag.
I did not think of the book as bleak. Certainly the lives of the characters were not pretty or comfortable and escaping from that type of life was/is difficult. I thought the author did a good job of showing how the systems that are supposed to help, often fail miserably. The Roman Catholic Church's warts were all there, with none of its better side. But, other "do-gooder" religious groups, while treated better than the catholic church, did not come off so good either. The school system and courts also seemed to have blinders on, failing to step up when it might have made a difference. There was dark humor in this bookThe book focused on the underbelly of the City, of Cork showing what is not so obvious when you walk its streets. I think every city has its underbelly where souls are lost.
What did people think of the setting of Cork itself and what it added to the story? Lisa McInerney first made her name writing a blog set in Cork called "the arse end of Ireland. - sample post http://www.lisamcinerney.com/single-p...
Kevin Barry is another prize-winning Irish writer with a similar style - and indeed namechecked by McInerney in her acknowledgements. He wrote a whole piece on Cork in Granta this year which is worth a read: https://granta.com/raingods-green-dar...
The title of the piece coming from this paragraph:
It was a city of hot, verminous slums and romance by dusk-light along the quays, the girls using their long black shawls to wrap their lovers tightly against them – on the Coal Quay the girls wore purple stockings and caps with golden tassels, the bright colours a rebellion against the city’s natural hues, which Ó Faoláin caught so perfectly as ‘the raingod’s green, dark as passion, and this pallid immensity of sky’. It was a dark, damp valley, a miasma, but also it had steel at its heart, and sometimes enough to gleam.
I've been to Cork once. It was a two day visit. We walked everywhere -- about 15 miles of walking in the two days. I liked the city. It felt blue collar. Folks were very pleasant and helpful. We arrived and left by train, and walked from the train station to our lodgings. The book felt true to what I felt about the place in those two days.
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Cork came across as a very depressed and hopeless place! It is not a city I have visited or know very much about - compared to Dublin we hear very little about it.
I asked about the church because it seems to be a big part of the story, particularly the culture clash between the unquestioning believers (the traditional Irish?) and the young and disillusioned whose views are more coloured by recent scandals and hypocrisies. I was thinking about putting that question in the first part, but I couldn't remember how early in the book it becomes a major theme.
Hugh wrote: "I couldn't remember how early in the book it becomes a major theme. "On page 10 as soon as Maureen enters. Indeed of all the people in the book she seems most anti-church and most disillusioned by recent scandals and hypocrisies, indeed the page 10 mention specifically refers to "scandals in the Church".
I agree it does seem pretty negative about religion - none of the characters seems to be traditional unquestioning believers.
The slightly culty group that offer sanctuary to Georgie initially come across favourably but end up siding with the father of her child on custody, and so in Georgie (if not the reader's) eyes are discredited.
Hugh,The book did not give me that impression of Cork, i.e., depressed and hopeless. For me, the book is presenting the more seamy side of the city but not condemning it, only wanting what goes on to be realized rather than swept under the carpet. I like the feel of Cork more than the feel of Dublin, but that is, in part, due to having to wade through throngs of people in Dublin, which I did not have to do in Cork!
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Perhaps because I was getting bored, I felt like some sort of moral shift was going to take place when Ryan volunteers to take care of Georgie. I found myself excited that he was going to "turn to the dark side", so to speak. And then he didn't. I was surprised to find myself rooting for him to take out another character and then surprised that I didn't feel he had chosen his better nature, so much as remained the same kind of... "nothing"... How did others react to this decision of Ryan's? Did it feel like a turning point? Did it feel like much of anything?
Interesting point re Ryan and Georgie. That did feel a little of a cop-out: I didn't quite believe he was really going to do what he was asked by JP, but then when one got to the "What Ryan did" chapter I wasn't convinced he'd have been able to fool JP that easily.But I think one is meant to contrast, favourably, what Ryan did with what his father did with a very similar situation with Tara (albeit Tony bore Tara a personal grudge), as ultimately the novel is Ryan's story. It starts with him, as a 15 year-old, entering adulthood and in love, and ends with him not yet 21 but tired, thinking he has already lost the only good thing in his life and worried "I'm turning into him" (ie Tony) - except what he did with Georgie suggests otherwise.
Ryan is much stronger than his father. I did not think he was worried about turning into his father but rather turning into Jimmy. Tony was not really a bad man, just a very weak one. Jimmy on the other hand is a bad character. Ryan shows the reader a side of himself that he does not show to the characters in the novel. I'm rooting for him.
I deeply enjoyed this novel perhaps up to about the 3/4 mark. The writing I thought was so good , I enjoyed being thrust into this Irish landscape not so much through geographical descriptions but the language - she kind of takes no prisoners with this and I was forced to look up many Irish slang terms and listen to the accent. I am not sure it makes me want to visit Cork but then I am sure many novels could be written about the underbelly of many otherwise pretty cities.
I think she taps nicely into a kind of post-economic boom Ireland and paints a sad picture of modern teens - the phones, the porn inspired sex and the failure of institutions like church and school to deal with multi-generational problems of substance abuse and violence.
I found it bleak but I also think it had some levity and I ended up deeply admiring it.
However, my problem really was with the narrative jumps and elusive timeline and this odd murder which aside from it being a murder I really couldn't see how it motivated the rest of the plot ... it seemed a little contrived.
Linda wrote: "Ryan is much stronger than his father. I did not think he was worried about turning into his father but rather turning into Jimmy. ..."I totally agree with your interpretation, Linda, that Ryan didn't kill Georgie because he didn't want to turn into JP. I did feel like this book was ultimately about him, as Paul suggests above - Ryan's transformation from being 15 and in love to being so depressed and about to kill himself only 5 years later was really heartbreaking to read. He is the character I connected most with.
Maureen's disdain for the Church was a nice distraction from the struggles of the others and provided humor to the story when things got too dark.
Kay wrote: "Linda wrote: "Ryan is much stronger than his father. I did not think he was worried about turning into his father but rather turning into Jimmy. ..."I totally agree with your interpretation, Lind..."
Kay and Linda, I totally agree with your thoughts on this book. I particularly found Maureen and her anti-church rantings very amusing.
Hello everyone,I also think that the book would have been difficult to read if it were not for the dark humor. Even though the subject matter was gloomy, the book did not leave me feeling bleak or hopeless. I think the author handled that balance very well, and at the end it seemed a story of redemption (for some characters at least). And Maureen cracked me up! ( I loved her reference to the holy trinity as the priests, nuns & the neighbors)
The references to the shame & guilt associated with the church were interesting, especially the extreme pain and shame that Maureen & Georgia were subjected to with pregnancies out of wedlock.
I do agree that the section of the book after JP tells Ryan to take care of Georgie stretched it a bit far. I also doubt he could have convinced JP he had taken care of it. But anyway, I liked the ending and Maureen gave me the last laugh telling Ryan that she would "put him right." frightening words coming from her.
Linda wrote: "Ryan is much stronger than his father. I did not think he was worried about turning into his father but rather turning into Jimmy. Tony was not really a bad man, just a very weak one. Jimmy on the ..."Interesting point. I'd say in a way he's trying to tread a path between his father and JP and turn into neither.
The specific context of the quote in the last Chapter is a conversation with Maureen, but he doesn't actually know who Maureen is (and thinks she doesn't know who he is), he spends much of the conversation complaining about his father, and the 'I'm turning into him' comment is prompted by the loss of his girlfriend (whereas for all his faults, JP seems to have a reasonable relationship with his partner). Hence my assumption "him" was Tony.
But re-reading it the text actually capitalises 'Him' which must mean something so perhaps it is JP...
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Like Jill, I thought Maureen's involvement did not bode well for things to come, although she sounds like she wants to fill in where institutions have failed (never mind what her involvement prior to this has led to in terms of JP and Robbie). What's changed for her?
I am not sure I felt much hope at the end of the book, but I wasn't really expecting it either. Real people don't always get redemption and I found this book to be fairly realistic. Maureen's involvement to me was more like "uh, oh" than anything else :)
Has anything changed for her, personally, though? I am not sure..
I think the jury is still out on what will the future will be for Ryan and, unlike on the TV show Bull, there is no way to gauge what it will decide!
Given Maureen seems to have gone around creating chaos the whole book, increasingly with relish, I suspect she may have some interesting thoughts in mind for how she will redeem him. Perhaps her own personal hitman for priests, intruders and any other people who have annoyed her!
I was a bit surprised that the author's next book The Blood Miracles will continue Ryan's story. I am not sure how I feel about that, because I always worry a sequel will upset my view of the original work, but this sentence in the description of the book made me laugh:"And he really wishes he hadn't accidentally caught the eye of an ornery grandmother who fancies herself his saviour. "
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A "hitman for priests" would make for all kinds of humorous potential, Paul!
Paul, your comment made me laugh out loud. Jill, thanks for sharing - I had no idea there is a sequel on Ryan - and I am with you - I am a bit apprehensive, but the "ornery grandmother who fancies herself his saviour" would be fun to read :)
Yes fascinating that there is a sequel - I look forward to reading what future chaos the ornery (I love that word) Maureen creates.
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I understand that some will have found the whole book a bleak experience - did you feel this or did the vibrancy of the writing and the partially redemptive ending make you feel more positive about it.
I omitted a question I was considering mentioning in the first part about McInerney's attitude to the Catholic church, but that seems too big a question to ignore altogether.