Aparna and Arpit: Jan copy cat challenge... Edit: India After Gandhi discussion

[Gorab]

I know these are major deviations from what we are reading and have not much connection with the contents of the book... But I'm reading it on with a skeptical mind now.

[[deleted user]]

Gorab wrote: "I don't have the links ready with me now, but there have been alligations that when Chacha Nehru won Bharat Ratna, he nominated himself. Same for Indira Gandhi.
Ok here it is : http://indiafacts.or..."

Oh, that's interesting. But Nehru's award is justifiable. Also Indira's, if only she got it after the Bangladesh event. I couldn't find information whether she was given the award after December, 71?

But what did Rajiv Gandhi do?
Wikipedia wrote about him -
Gandhi was the ninth Prime Minister of India serving from 1984 to 1989.
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bharat_...)

Except bringing computer technology in India, I don't know any of his remarkable achievement.

[[deleted user]]

Gorab wrote: "So far all the decisions taken by Nehru ji are very logical and patriotic. Especially the struggle to avoid creation of a separate state of Andhra."

Exactly. It seems he was trying very hard to keep India united, minorities secured and safe, and keeping up with world politics.

[[deleted user]]

Gorab wrote: "I know these are major deviations from what we are reading and have not much connection with the contents of the book... But I'm reading it on with a skeptical mind now."

Ha ha..me too.
I'm on 10. 5.
I think author gets defensive of Nehru sometimes. We should read some of Nehru's critics, otherwise we would be converted into Nehru Bhakts when this book ends :P

[[deleted user]]

Gorab wrote: "Plus there have been many degrading stories floating around the family tree of Nehru-Gandhi. "

The one about Sanjay Gandhi and Indira Gandhi. I HATE it. I wanna kill the person immediately whoever mentions it :(

[Gorab]

Ok. Good deeds are justified. Whats not justified is nominating yourself and getting the Bharat Ratna... kinda makes mockery of the award system!

[Gorab]

Nehru bhakts :P Ha ha! Impossible for me! May be I'll admire him more... bhakti is far fetched.

Couldn;t read any in the past 3-4 days. Will be starting from Chapter 11 - Law and the Prophets.
Resuming today.

[[deleted user]]

Resumed today. On 11.2
It seems weird that all the issue they were trying to fight during 1st/2nd five-year-plans are still out there. It seems we slowed down somewhere.

[Gorab]

Read 11 today.
Rather than us slowing down, I feel these issues are paradoxical in nature. By these issues, I mean the Hindu act laws.

I firmly believe in Dr. Prasad's viewpoint that if at all the law has to be passed, it should be uniform and not partial towards some religions and henceforth promoting communalism.

I also don't totally disagree to Nehru ji's viewpoint that Muslims are not ready for it and will not feel secure.

What could be the way out of a situation like that?
Me thinks enforcing the Hindu Act was wrong. Instead of enforcing the law, you could have made it more flexible by not enforcing but advocating for it. Yup I get it thats difficult and pretty messed up too unless people are forced towards it. However, if you are enforcing such a thing, it should definitely be uniform. No exceptions! Or rather if a community is not yet ready,
wait for the law to be passed.

Your thoughts?

I'm not much aware of the current situation either. So here I ask the buddy who reads the newspapers....
Are the laws across different religions same in current time or that discrepancy still exists across different religions?

[Gorab]

Ok the five-year plans issues you were talking about must have been on the progress and economic front rather than "The Law and the Prophets". Right?

I don't get the connection which points you refer to which still exist and were there during 1st 2nd five year plans.

[Gorab]

Arpit wrote: "The one about Sanjay Gandhi and Indira Gandhi. I HATE it. I wanna kill the person immediately whoever mentions it :("

Didn't get this part too.... Whats the one about Sanjay and Indira Gandhi? Any famous controversy/conspiracy?

[Gorab]

^^Don't kill me for it pretty pleeze!

[[deleted user]]

Gorab wrote: "Arpit wrote: "The one about Sanjay Gandhi and Indira Gandhi. I HATE it. I wanna kill the person immediately whoever mentions it :("

Didn't get this part too.... Whats the one about Sanjay and Indi..."

(view spoiler)[Umm..I came to know about it during my Kota times. We were not supposed to roam after 11pm in the hostel, but my friend and I were standing on the balcony and were probably talking about something. The hostel watchman caught us, and after showing off the little authority he had, he got engaged in the conversation, lol. Weird, right?
And he told us all the nasty rumors about Congress and Gandhi family. The most shocking was about Indira Gandhi and Sanjay Gandhi. According to him, Indira ma'am was involved in the death of with the murder of his own son. The reason was the rapidly increasing popularity of Sanjay Gandhi over Indira. She was so blind by the greed for power that she couldn't bear it and ultimately planned his murder. That's just the summary of the story I was told that night.

I was too shocked to say anything. In my mind I was like "this oldie is mad. He's accusing a mother for the murder of his own son. No matter how deep the hatred is, no mother would such thing. And when it was clearly a plane accident".
But as I suspected, he turned out to be an ex-RSSian, and was still loyal to BJP-RSS family. So I thought he was just making all this stuff.
But to my utter shock, I saw my friend agreeing with him. But then he, too, was an RSSian, so I should have known that he would agree.

Then after few years, I asked my college friends about it, and not only they knew about this theory, but they thought that it was very likely to be true. And they don't even support RSS :/

Believe me, this is the worst conspiracy theory I've ever heard.

If you enter both the keyword in the searchbox of Quora, you might get better information. (hide spoiler)]

[[deleted user]]

But what were the other degrading stories you were talking about? Wait, I would rather not know.

[[deleted user]]

Haven't finished chapter 11 yet, so can't say anything about the law thing. I shall resume from today.

[[deleted user]]

Gorab wrote: "Ok the five-year plans issues you were talking about must have been on the progress and economic front rather than "The Law and the Prophets". Right?

I don't get the connection which points you re..."

The first five year was mostly about agriculture sector, along with land reforms, irrigation, better connectivity etc. The second FYP was heavy on industrialization, what with all those steel plants and developement of dams. Education was also a major objective in second and third FYP.
But don't you think neither the electricity, nor the road connectivity nor the education level are in the perfect condition they should be? We started planning them bloody 60 years ago, and in every second election ralley in villages, they promise the same thing : 24 hr electricity, water for your farms and road connectivity for your village.
There are 3G headsets in rural areas, but the education system, medical fecilities etc. are really in terrible condition.

[Gorab]

The planning was in the right area and direction. What trailed off was execution of those plans. From what tit bits I've known, corruption played a major devil for these trail offs. Budget is allocated but work not done bcoz of everyone involved filling their pockets. Can't blame it on the plan. Complementing laws were (are?) not very strict!

[Gorab]

Arpit wrote: "in every second election ralley in villages, they promise the same thing : 24 hr electricity, water for your farms and road connectivity for your village. "

If they do it, what will they campaign for in the next election :P May be for once they will campaign on the development by providing roads and elec... what about next? :P And it takes a lot of gut to actually provide all this... albeit only a minuscule marketing/political skill relatively to promise it as a part of campaign.

[Gorab]

Arpit wrote: "But what were the other degrading stories you were talking about? Wait, I would rather not know."

Try finding "Nehru family tree" and pay focus from Indira Gandhi (with Feroz) and further developments.....
Ya I'd rather not tell you :P

[[deleted user]]

Gorab wrote: "The planning was in the right area and direction. What trailed off was execution of those plans. From what tit bits I've known, corruption played a major devil for these trail offs. Budget is alloc..."

Reminds me of that iconic "1Rupya, 15 Paise" dialogue of Rajeev Gandhi ;)

[[deleted user]]

Gorab wrote: "Try finding "Nehru family tree" and pay focus from Indira Gandhi (with Feroz) and further developments.....
Ya I'd rather not tell you :P "

So, I did search it, and the top result was a blog article. It was horrible. The whole article was without any proof of logic. Ya, I'd rather not know.
Anyway, we are getting very deep in this Nehru-Gandhi family thing. This ain't good. Let's close this topic.

[[deleted user]]

Gorab wrote: "Are the laws across different religions same in current time or that discrepancy still exists across different religions? "

I hope you are aware of all the drama that happened previous year on Triple-Talaq and Muslim personal law?

Well, all in peace, but the demand for a uniform civil code rises time to time. "If different personal laws for Muslims, then why not different personal laws for Buddhists, Sikhs and Jains too?" This argument was given by some lawyer in Supreme Court. Lol. In India anything would take forever to sort out of religion has anything to do with it.

[[deleted user]]

Gorab wrote: "Read 11 today.
Rather than us slowing down, I feel these issues are paradoxical in nature. By these issues, I mean the Hindu act laws.

I firmly believe in Dr. Prasad's viewpoint that if at all the..."

You are right that if they were going to force the law, then it should be uniform.
Just yesterday, I heard in a debate that a young Muslim lady was saying something like-" It's written in Sharia (Law) that you follow the law of the land you live on. It's in Sharia.."
Well, if that's the case then nobody should have problem accepting the uniform law, since it's the law of the land you live on ;) Wish Ambedkar had used this argument too.

[Gorab]

Close the lid on family matters? Okay.
*MUTE*

[Gorab]

Haven't read further. But the chapter title (12) Securing Kashmir looks interesting.. Secure from what? Pakistan? China? Internal conflicts? All of it together? We'll find out :)

[Gorab]

Religion is such a topic which should be left alone and never made laws against it. The more you try to suppress, the more its going to open up. Let every religious fanatic do whatever they want to (without blatantly harming other beings).

Sometimes I feel these religious zealots enjoy taking pangas and dharnas and their life would be very boring if nobody challenges their views and ideas. May be that's why they fan up very strange stupid ideas at times to enjoy the controversy and bashing around!
This never ends! Never will!

[Gorab]

I'm still not convinced with Nehru's views on why Hindu Act was a mandate and linked to development? Why forcing it was quintessentially important?

[[deleted user]]

Completed the 12th chapter.
Honestly, I'm so fed up with this Kashmir issue, that I swear on the name of holy god that one more chapter on this issue and I'll jump on the next one.
If North-East and other states would have got only 1/20 of the Kashmir coverage on national media, we wouldn't be so unaware of other parts of India. Like, we know nothing about seven sisters (I can't even name them all...lemme try.... (view spoiler)[. ......Assam, Manipur, Meghalaya, Arunachal Pradesh, Sikkim, Nagaland and...and..Tripura..*sigh* not bad as I thought I would be. (hide spoiler)]), their culture, their geography, local politics etc. One curfew in J&K makes news for weeks.

I agree with the gentleman's opinion who appeared on the last page of 12th chapter.
J&K is like an expensive bike we can not drive (because some legal shit), but we still gotta spend millions on its monthly care. In this money, we could have bought ten new bikes.
What do you think?

[[deleted user]]

Completed chap 13.
On 14.6, Part-3 now. Shaking the centre.

Chap 13 was good. Want to know more about these issues. It resembles a lot with Naxal problem.
But why everyone in 40's and 50's wanted a nation?
" Oh, I have 200 people, and we all look kinda different from Indians due to some genetic defects, and thus we demand a new nation. UK, America, wouldn't you help us?"
Nehru- "We might give you a lil autonomy, but..."
US/UK- "Oh, your demand is completely valid. We will totally help you in your struggle for freedom from India. We will financially help you."

I mean without any resources, how would have they survived?

[[deleted user]]

Okay, I know you are not a fan of Miss Roy, and also you don't agree with her ideas, but I suggest you to watch a video of her.
You can find it on Youtube with some title like "Arundhati Roy explains why she...". A 10:19 min long video. On some channel named "Radical Conversations".
She talks about the Naga problem, the Naxal problem, and the alternatives we had.
Tell me what you think!
PS: watch it after finishing chap 13.

[Gorab]

Time to pick it up again. I'm still in the middle of 12th Chapter. Will catch up in a couple of days, and come back to discuss.

[Gorab]

Arpit wrote: "Completed the 12th chapter.
Honestly, I'm so fed up with this Kashmir issue, that I swear on the name of holy god that one more chapter on this issue and I'll jump on the next one.
If North-East a..."

Finished Chapter 12.
Where this Kashmir problem started and see how it became this complex.
Conspiracy theory - The USA never wants this problem to end. Its a big gain for them while India Pak are at loggerheads and each keeps asking for more advanced arms and weapons.
Problems started for India with that UN interference.

Think about it why the North East don't get much attention? Who is to gain from it?
I am not sure but feels that whatever conflicts we see is superficial and there is a bigger agenda driving this. [*Hawa mein baatein*]

[[deleted user]]

I'm on Chap-15.4
Tell me if I'm going fast.
I agree with that conspiracy theory. Didn't US help Pak a lot before 9/11? They still give Pak a lot of money for Pak "to fight with terrorism". What a joke!
In fact, US is responsible for Taliban.

[[deleted user]]

So Chap 13 was about Naga problem, while chap 14 was about communism "problem" in Kerala.
(view spoiler)[ Now, if you read these chapters, you will certainly see them as some problems for central govt.
But, Guha sir is only allowing us to see the side of central govt. He's not representing the other side very fairly.
In fact, they were just some issues challenging Nehru (or Nehru govt.)
I mean the Naga point should be explained as well. Guha uncle should have some sympathy with them as well. (hide spoiler)]

[[deleted user]]

Gorab wrote: "Arpit wrote: "Completed the 12th chapter.
Honestly, I'm so fed up with this Kashmir issue, that I swear on the name of holy god that one more chapter on this issue and I'll jump on the next one.
I..."

Your whole message is like an Arundhati Roy speech, 'cause that's what she's usually saying-
1. US (and/or capitalism) is (are) the real evil.
2. Media don't feed us the truth.
And many more hawai baatein ;)

[[deleted user]]

Chapter 15 is about China. It's 1959-61.
On the edge of war.
I don't think I even like the name of China.
I even like North Korea better than China.

[Gorab]

Middle of Chap 13. No you're not going fast. I was slow due to lesser reading time last week. Will catch up. This is turning out t be a very enjoyable read.... doesn't happens all the time with me esp for a non-fiction overloaded with facts.

[Gorab]

Communsim in Kerala. Interesting. I always wanted to know more about it. Being the most educated state since long... and always choosing Congress :P

[Gorab]

China is very very aggressive in its terms and policies and welfare and what not. Extremists.
Yeah I hate them too being an Indian... and wouldn't even like to know their side of the story (unlike Pak)
North Korea.... equally bad. No freedom. Nothing. People who shout intolerance should be sent to NK for at least a week!

[Gorab]

self reminder - to come back to 134 after reading next 2 chapters.
inner voice - don't be Arpit. don't even touch that spoiler!

[Gorab]

So I've read 13 and 14.
Totally agree with you on that msg 134 thing. I was wondering the same and anticipating when their side will be revealed. Guha sir believes in giving homework and assignments :|

[[deleted user]]

Gorab wrote: "Communsim in Kerala. Interesting. I always wanted to know more about it. Being the most educated state since long... and always choosing Congress :P"

Am actually reading/watching stuff about Communism.
Kerala's case is certainly interesting. And that can happen only in India. It adds to our diversity.

[[deleted user]]

Did you watch the video I suggested? I guess not :|
You are trying to avoid Miss Roy :(
Why everyone in India seems to hate that poor lady? Why, dear god, why? What wrongs she did?
I love her. She's really great and intelligent.

[[deleted user]]

Gorab wrote: "China is very very aggressive in its terms and policies and welfare and what not. Extremists.
Yeah I hate them too being an Indian... and wouldn't even like to know their side of the story (unlike..."

Don't send me to NK, please! Freedom of speech allows me to shout all type of things (including, secular's favourite, Intolerance).
On the serious note, are u keeping an eye on all these current events? Gurmeher Kaur and stuff? ABVP?

NK is bad too, but not imperialistic* like China. And I don't think general people of NK are bad, but I've no sympathy for Chinese people. (Not a fan of Chinese food too. I tried without prejudice though)

*Guha sir certainly teaching me new things!

[[deleted user]]

I think we will go back to the Nagaland problem. It was solved much later.
I also wanna read about Manipur (I'm following Irom Sharmila from a long time ago. I think she should not have joined politics directly. It killed all her efforts.)

[Gorab]

Arpit wrote: "Did you watch the video I suggested? I guess not :|
You are trying to avoid Miss Roy :(
Why everyone in India seems to hate that poor lady? Why, dear god, why? What wrongs she did?
I love her. She'..."

None of them :(
I'm pretty bad when it comes to checking video links. Don't prefer seeing videos in office... and don't prefer touching the computer at home

[Gorab]

If I ever do, Zindagi Gulzar hai is among the top priorities.

Okay we do watch some videos, but only on TV. Will watch all that when(if) we get a chromecast or similar - intent is to read graphic novels on TV screen :P

[Gorab]

Arpit wrote: "On the serious note, are u keeping an eye on all these current events? Gurmeher Kaur and stuff? ABVP?"

No.
I'm a cave dweller.

[Gorab]

Arpit wrote: "I think we will go back to the Nagaland problem. It was solved much later.
I also wanna read about Manipur (I'm following Irom Sharmila from a long time ago. I think she should not have joined pol..."

Irom Sharmila? Who's that? Ok I'll pass.

[Gorab]

Arpit wrote: "*Guha sir certainly teaching me new things! "

:D
With my last coupel of posts, you'd know how difficult it was to consider picking this!
And do I regret it? No! Hope it stays that way.