Black Sheep Group Read January 2017 Chapters 1-9

[Shelley]

This will be my third reading of the story, which is possibly my favorite GH, or at least top 5. I love the more mature heroines.

[Barb in Maryland]

Just reached the part where Selina comes down with 'a touch of influenza' and her current doctor has to do a bit of fancy verbal dancing to remain her doctor. Topped off with Fanny asking if dear Aunt Selina enjoys being sick. Classic!

[Susan in NC]

Barb in Maryland wrote: "Just reached the part where Selina comes down with 'a touch of influenza' and her current doctor has to do a bit of fancy verbal dancing to remain her doctor. Topped off with Fanny asking if dear A..."

Lol! I enjoyed that part but found it kind of sad as well,especially when Abby told Fanny ladies of a certain age affected die-away airs to appear interesting...wherever did I park my fainting couch and smelling salts?!

[Andrea AKA Catsos Person]

Abbey is good-humored enough to not become annoyed with Selina's "illnesses."

[Belinda]

I agree with both barb and Susan. Selina is such a perfectly written character I feel as if she is real. If you were a rich middle aged female who was prevented from working - what else could you do but be a lady who lunches, be at the cutting edge of fashion (best dressed lady in bath), catch up with friends (ie gossip), read the latest novels and quack yourself? She has a sweet side too with her devotion to family and her staunch devotion to Abby (which turns into a problem for Abby, part of the 'cage' keeping her from miles). Her confrontations with her brother James (via the back biting mrs ruscombe's letters to Cornelia) are such funny scenes. I've just read her chapter five outraged which devolved to talking about young heads and old shoulders and fair ground freaks which puts Abby in whoops!

[Jackie]

I've always liked Selina - I think she is the character I would have been, rather than the practical (smart) one like Abby.

the meeting between Abby & Miles, where she assumes he is Stacy and he gradually realizes who she is - is the best hero-heroine meeting in any Heyer book.

[Belinda]

Jackie -agreed it is the best first meet!

[Susan in NC]

Belinda wrote: "I agree with both barb and Susan. Selina is such a perfectly written character I feel as if she is real. If you were a rich middle aged female who was prevented from working - what else could you d..."

Yes, I agree, Selina is a sweet but rather sad character - did I misunderstand, or wasn't there a curate in her past, sent away by their truly awful-sounding father?

[Susan in NC]

Jackie wrote: "I've always liked Selina - I think she is the character I would have been, rather than the practical (smart) one like Abby.

the meeting between Abby & Miles, where she assumes he is Stacy and he ..."
Yes! On both counts. Right away Heyer makes me see how very different Miles is from any man Abby knows and how she responds to it, in spite of herself. Delicious scene!

And yes, I like Selina a lot and really empathize with her - with such an oppressive, humorless father (and stupid from Abby's later description), I could definitely see myself turning into a Selina - being Abby takes a lot of courage and energy, and of course you have to be smart to begin with. I get the impression from Miles' comments that the Wendover clan were not the sharpest knives in the drawer!

[Andrea]

Belinda wrote: "Jackie -agreed it is the best first meet!"

I don't know. I kinda like the "Oh how full of briars is this working-day world" meet-cute from Venetia :D But this one is definitely fun!

[Barb in Maryland]

Susan, yes there was a curate--but that would not have been a 'good' enough marriage to satisfy Daddy Wendover--so daddy dearest scuttled the romance. I do like Selina, too, and I try not to feel sorry for her. Selina leads a life that suits her, plus she has a soft heart, to counterbalance her lack of wit and common sense.

[Teresa]

I absolutely loved the first meeting between Abbey and Miles. He's definitely a hero I like. It was so funny!! Great to have the main characters meeting so early on in the book. I actually know someone who was like Selina. It can be quite a trial so I applaud Abbey for her perseverance.

[Howard]

I bet a young Miles would have made a poor husband. Apparently he had a lot of growing up to do - and like many did that growing up without getting hard.

[Susan in NC]

Barb in Maryland wrote: "Susan, yes there was a curate--but that would not have been a 'good' enough marriage to satisfy Daddy Wendover--so daddy dearest scuttled the romance. I do like Selina, too, and I try not to feel s..."

Nicely put and so true! Thanks, now I don't have to feel sorry for her - it could be much, much worse, she could be poor!

[Susan in NC]

Howard wrote: "I bet a young Miles would have made a poor husband. Apparently he had a lot of growing up to do - and like many did that growing up without getting hard."

Great point, Howard - he clearly doesn't take himself too seriously and can laugh at himself and his past transgressions. I really love his attitude and humor - makes him a very attractive hero, inside and out.

[Susan in NC]

Teresa wrote: "I absolutely loved the first meeting between Abbey and Miles. He's definitely a hero I like. It was so funny!! Great to have the main characters meeting so early on in the book. I actually know som..."

Do you think the great difference in their ages helps Abby to be patient with Selina? Your comment got me thinking - like you said, knowing someone like Selina made you admire Abby's patience, so what makes Abby patient rather than throwing up her hands and basically ignoring her sister's babbling? Love, obviously, and I think protective feelings after living through such awful childhoods with their oppressive father, but I wonder if the age gap makes her seem almost more like a vulnerable, elderly maiden aunt.

[Howard]

The age gap may have contributed - but I know of siblings who are virtually the same age who take on that role.

[Linda]

Hi everyone!

So I take it that everything within chapters 1 through 9 can be openly discussed in this thread? I wasn't sure about what was allow to be discussed here and in the the chapters 10-18 thread versus the whole book spoiler thread. (I'm referring to my message 50 on this thread).

Thanks!

[Abigail]

Yes, Linda, we usually allow conversation about anything within the prescribed area (chaps. 1–9 in this case) in the pre-spoiler threads. Sorry your query didn’t get answered sooner! I think the assumption is that if it’s your first read, you can avoid the thread until you’ve read the section.

I also loved the scene in which Abby and Miles met! He is so clever about answering only the part of her remarks that will keep the misunderstanding going! For me the scene is a bit reminiscent of the meeting in The Reluctant Widow, where Elinor assumes she’s at the house of the woman employing her as a governess.

[Linda]

Thank you, Abigail! Sorry for the confusion on my part, and I didn't want to post before making sure. :)

[Abigail]

It can get confusing, and different groups have different practices. Some are very strict, but my experience of this group is that it’s pretty laissez-faire (I'm not a moderator, by the way, so my expressed opinion is an amateur one!).

[Teresa]

Well explained Abigail and Linda don't worry about asking the question. I asked numerous ones when I first joined and they're a great bunch here for helping out. Hope you enjoy the group.

[Sheila (in LA)]

Teresa wrote: "I absolutely loved the first meeting between Abbey and Miles. He's definitely a hero I like. It was so funny!! Great to have the main characters meeting so early on in the book. I actually know som..."

I agree about Miles, he is delightful--and I'm enjoying the interaction between the two main characters. So far it is really front and center, with less emphasis on secondary characters than I feel sometimes happens in Heyer's books (although not always for the worst).

[Howard]

I can't think of a Heyer character I'd rather *be* than Miles.

[Susan in NC]

Linda wrote: "Hi everyone!

So I take it that everything within chapters 1 through 9 can be openly discussed in this thread? I wasn't sure about what was allow to be discussed here and in the the chapters 10-18..."

Hey Linda, welcome to this wonderful group!

[Susan in NC]

Howard wrote: "I can't think of a Heyer character I'd rather *be* than Miles."

Good point Howard - he certainly seems to enjoy life and takes it as it comes, doesn't he? I find him very refreshing, and I like the way Abby notices the difference between uncle and nephew - Miles may look more like an unmade bed, but his smile reaches his eyes and he is a funny, warm and kind man, Stacy not so much.

[QNPoohBear]

I adore Miles. His sense of humor kills me every time. More precisely, his sense of the absurd. He does have a good heart. He returned to England when he didn't need to and he conspires with Abby.

[Belinda]

Qnpoohbear. Yes I love miles too. He is so well written I can picture him in my minds eye. I think he has a ruthless streak though when it comes to business. He also seems ruthlessly detached from people possibly because he had to learn how to survive in India on his own? I wonder if he was packed off their with any contacts to help him? I wonder also if the system of packing kids off to boarding school or raising them via nannies
hardens them up? The aristocracy seem detached from their kids and closer to their servants. Perhaps this was how GH was raised as well - I know she certainly packed he son Richard off to boarding school at a young age.

[Belinda]

Susan well said re miles being an unmade bed and Stacey being written as a creep. As I was reading it I thought how well GH wrote Stacey to show us by small stages just how unlikeable he was and how self centred he is

[Susan in NC]

Belinda wrote: "Susan well said re mikes being an unmade bed and Stacey being written as a creep. As I was reading it I thought how well GH wrote Stacey to show us by small stages just how unlikeable he was and ho..."

He really seems to be a slimy little worm, doesn't he?!

[Belinda]

Essay - "Why I think Abby is perfect for Miles" reasons chapter 1 to 3:
- the gentle fun she pokes at Selina with Mitton on arrival back from London when Selina thought she was of a consumptive habit. Miles also likes to poke gentle fun at people particularly their flaws and follies,
- Abby calling a former suitor Lord Broxbourne, 'a dead bore'. She now seems to value wit and liveliness of mind more than social acceptability,
-Abby finding mirth in her father naming her the Hebrew equivalent of 'father rejoiced'. She calls a spade a spade and is realistic about her relationship with her father and doesn't sugar coat it with sentiment - neither does Miles who openly calls himself the black sheep of the family and thinks the Caverleighs were some of the scruff and raft that came across with the Conqueror ,
- She doesn't like the shackles and confines of the rules she was brought up with but because she is female she doesn't disobey just occasionally 'comes to cuffs' with her father to her sister and mother's dismay. She admits she was rebellious in her youth. She is headstrong and opinionated and is not afraid to show it. Miles is all of the above but didn't knuckle down to rules at all but flouted them.
- She likes a jest with Fanny - i.e. 'corky' conversation. She is an adroit handler of a young adolescent and can read people well. i.e. her summation of Selina's various illnesses as a form of hobby. Miles is a very good reader of people and summed Selina up in an instant and Abigail.
- Her light humour with Mrs Grayshott ' of course it would be greatest hardship to have so onerous a burden [Lavina] thrust upon me'. Miles showed a great deal of humour when he continued the conversation with Abby when he realised she was mistaken in his identity and he took great delight in it. "what an unhandsome thing to have done, doesn't she like me any more?' (referring to Abby's enlightenment of Selina of stacy's unsavoury reputation),
- When pondering Peter Dunston's regard for her she realises 'she had never been able to feel the least tender for men of uniform virtues'. Miles likes people 'ripe for a spree' and flouts convention spectacularly,
- They have the same sense of humour and both want to laugh at the same things - 'talking to you is like-like talking to an eel!'. 'No, is it? I've never tried to talk to an eel. Is it a waste of time?'. She choked - 'Not such a waste of time as talking to you!'.

[Barb in Maryland]

Belinda--well done!

[Susan in NC]

LOL - they are one of my favorite Heyer couples, I agree on all points!

[Barb in Maryland]

I'm up to Chapter 10--but there is so much goodness in the first 9 chapters. I was especially fond of the riding party. Slimy Stacy thinks to have Fanny to himself (Oliver and his sister don't count) and--oh, hi!--Miles and Abby are added to the party. It was fun watching Stacy grit his teeth in disappointment. I did have to applaud Stacy's quick recovery when Abby drops the bombshell that Fanny won't get her money 'til she's 25. Keen-eyed Abby did notice his momentary shock, though.
The outing to Wells cathedral was also good. But the best part of Chapter 9 is Miles taking Abby to the theater--just the two of them, on a date! The dinner prior to the outing was also fun, showing how well Miles understood both Selina and Abby. Selina got fabulous tales because that was what she needed and understood.

[Howard]

I have wanted to make comments, but have been too lazy to go see whether I am referencing chapter 9 or chapter 10.

[Carol She's So Novel꧁꧂]

Linda wrote: "It's been awhile since I've participated in a group read here, so I would like some clarification on the threads and spoilers. From the moderator post, I take it that open spoilers are only allowed..."

Hi Linda - I'm glad Abigail gave you some help. I had an unexpected trip away & I'm behind with my read on this. I'm now half way through chapter 6 & Miles is showing once again why he is one of my favourite GH heros,

[Jackie]

Howard wrote: "I have wanted to make comments, but have been too lazy to go see whether I am referencing chapter 9 or chapter 10."

the post right above yours spells out what happens at the end of chapter 9, Miles has dinner with Abby & Selina and amazes Selina with his stories/tall tales, then takes Abby to the theater.

[Marissa]

This is definitely in my top ten Heyers--have re-read it several times. :) What's striking me on this read is how skillfully Heyer constructed her early chapters, especially the first: there's a lot going on in this story (the entwining of the past with the present) and she manages to present a lot of information without it being in the least dull, and does such a splendid job (as always) of demonstrating character in dialogue.

[QNPoohBear]

Belinda wrote: "He also seems ruthlessly detached from people possibly because he had to learn how to survive in India on his own? I wonder if he was packed off their with any contacts to help him? I wonder also if the system of packing kids off to boarding school or raising them via nannies
hardens them up? The aristocracy seem detached from their kids and closer to their servants. Perhaps this was how GH was raised as well - I know she certainly packed he son Richard off to boarding school at a young age. .."

I don't think Miles is as detached as he pretends to be. Your observations about the artistocracy and the children are interesting. I think because children were a natural byproduct of marriage. One married to have an heir to continue the dynasty-not for any deep and natural love for children or one's spouse.

GH was NOT raised like that. She was middle class-nobody in particular and very close to her father. When he died she may have shut herself off though. She wanted to be like her more upper-class acquaintances and romanticized the days of yore to her own Edwardian childhood as the good ol' days.

[Belinda]

Hi queen pooh bear. Your quite right! I forgot georgette was unusually close to her father. He seems to have given her the equivalent of a university level education in literature at a time when women did not go to university. She adored him more than her mother? I suspect she was a person that preferred the company of men to women - or at least I think her writing is great when she is talking about a male character or little boys or adolescent men.

[Louise Sparrow]

Great observations everyone, I'm really enjoying this re-read :)

[Belinda]

Susan in NC wrote: "Belinda wrote: "I agree with both barb and Susan. Selina is such a perfectly written character I feel as if she is real. If you were a rich middle aged female who was prevented from working - what ..."

Yes as Abby says in Chapter 1 'But for Papa, you would have married that curate - I forget his name, but I daresay you would have been very happy, with a quiverful of children....' to which Selina irrepressibly replies that she was worried he would have become bald before he was 40!.

I love the fact GH uses the word 'quiverful' in reference to Selina - so apt as she seems like someone who trembles, spasms and shakes all over with emotion quite regularly. IT reminds me of Mrs Bennett in Pride & Prejudice

[Belinda]

Apologies if I'm posting too much but there are two reasons for this - a) this is my absolute favourite GH book and b) I'm on holidays. When I'm back at work next week there will be a severe decline in my posts.

[Barb in Maryland]

Jackie--re: Howard's comment He's right to be cautious --I got caught out for not taking copious notes. In my post that covers the chapters through 9 I mention the outing to Wells Cathedral--which took place in Chapter 10!! Oops. I didn't 'spoil' what happened on said outing--but it is so easy to lose track of what, exactly happens when!
Belinda--I'm enjoying your posts---carry on.

[Belinda]

My favourite parts of Chapter 4:
- we are still in the middle of the first meeting between Miles and Abigail. GH is masterful in the ending. As I read somewhere - the difficulties for romance writers is how to keep your characters apart, not how to put them together. How does she end this meeting where two people are delighted with each other, discover they both think so alike on so many topics, have a strong attraction and laugh together so much? She inserts the problem of Fanny - Abigail loves her dearly and cares what happens to her whereas Miles gets bored with it (I love the fact he is bored with Fanny & Stacey and noticeably switches off during protracted conversations about them).
- Miles is quite happy to talk about the past elopement (proprietary would dictate he is ashamed/covers it up but he is quite refreshingly candid about it).
- I love the part where Abigail starts talking about all her relations - Mary, George, Selina but Miles doesn't have a clue who they are,
- Their conversation about the fact you do no have to love or like members of your family - this is a revelation for Abigail (that someone can think like that).
- That Celia was a pretty clinging female that was forever saying 'Rowland says'. Its interesting towards the end of the book Fanny starts saying 'Oliver says' however she has ounces more steel and backbone than her mother did it would appear.
- Respectability was the 'god of my father's idolatry' whereas Miles father liked 'good ton'. What is the difference? I guess respectability was presenting a good appearance in public whereas good ton was the code of conduct of gentelmen that should not be breached.
It is therefore so funny that Abby, in rebelling against her father should pick the least respectable gentleman she could find - he got expelled from Eton, sent down from Oxford then crowned all his iniquities by eloping with an heiress (the worst offence against good ton it appears).
- I love the fact that Abby was in such a huff she forgot to deliver the letter to the Leavenings
- I love the familiar and affectionate way servants were dealt with - Mrs Grimston the old nurse tells off Fanny for buying expensive silk stockings and can't refrain from telling Fanny where to get things at half the price. What would fanny care about economy? She is vastly rich compared to Grimston but such a telling comparison - reminds me of the old nurse in Romeo and Juliet.
- GH displays her spectacular and detailed knowledge of Bath - where the best place is to live and where all amenities are situated.
- I like the fact Abby has friends that are also kindred spirits - Mrs Grayshot that she can reside confidences in about teenage girls. Its interesting she can't talk to her sister Selina sensibly about Fanny at all.
- Lady Weaverham is a delightfully vulgar and funny character - dropping in at the wrong time, attributing her damming comments to her husband whom she refers to as 'Sir Joshua'. Mrs Ancrum is also a treat.
- Miles reference to Oliver as 'young spider-shanks'. Oliver's understanding that Miles would take off if 'put to the blush' but Miles brushing it off.
- Miles's gentle ribbing of Abby so that only she knew what he was referring to as they were in company and he had only just been introduced to everyone: Lady Weaverham - ' Stacy has won all our hearts - 'All of them ma'am?' with a quizzical gleam in his eyes towards abby.
- Abby is cross as everyone thinks Miles is an angel but she had a full description of him the day before and knows all his foibles and past misdeeds. However she shows honour by forbearing to expose him as it would be 'a shabby thing to do' and he had paid for his misconduct via exile. Miles enjoys her discomfort and knows she won't rat on him
- I love the fact Miles critically survey's Fanny when she first appears (others have their jaw on the floor as she is so pretty - i.e. Oliver) then tells her that he knew her mother very well! The ultimate jibing shot at Abby. It seems he is quite a tease but he only bothers teasing or ribbing people he likes quite well. If he doesn't like you or your pretentious - he will be cynical or worse he will just avoid you and completely ignore you.

[Susan in NC]

Well done, Belinda! I love reading your posts, you sum all the wonderfulness up so eloquently!

[Belinda]

Susan in NC wrote: "Well done, Belinda! I love reading your posts, you sum all the wonderfulness up so eloquently!"

Thanks Susan, your compliments are going to my head. I am like Amanda from 'Sprig Muslin' when she gets to wear a pink silk dress and drink wine for the first time - 'she was undoubtedly flown with pink silk and compliments'.

[Howard]

I was thinking it might be a good standard in the future to make the first post in a "chapter 1 - 9" thread to give a clue about which chapter was 9. Sure, we can look it up, but sometimes we get caught up in reading, and it would be nice for our discussions if we stopped and posted at that point.

[Carol She's So Novel꧁꧂]

Howard wrote: "I was thinking it might be a good standard in the future to make the first post in a "chapter 1 - 9" thread to give a clue about which chapter was 9. Sure, we can look it up, but sometimes we get c..."

That's a good idea & I could have done it this time( as I only reread this book 2 years ago) but the problem would be on books I haven't read for 30 years!

Some of GH's older titles have chapter headings. When applicable I'll put them up. :)

[Teresa]

I'm totally enjoying this book. It's actually moved up to one of my favorites. The discussions between Abby and Miles and Stacy and Miles are priceless. Post away Belinda. It's great to read other people's thoughts on it.