ARCHIVE - DUBLINERS - BUDDY READ - DISCUSSION THREAD

[David]

Lynne wrote: "Hi all, meant this to be my first buddy read but not sure I understand. Every post I see here indicates (spoiler removed) but literally nothing else. I'm using an iPad and see no function to activa..."

Hi Lynn. I was having the same problem with my iPad when I was using the Goodreads app. When I switched to the Internet website however the problem was resolved. I could then click on an active link "spoilers removed " and access the text

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Yes David exactly what I said in the note above. Thank you for backing that up.

[David]

The Sisters, # 2: customs
(view spoiler)[ There are two things that stand out for me when I think of the customs surrounding a person's death, their wake and their funeral service. When I attend a person's viewing or wake at a funeral home I find it hard to know what to say to those who are closest to the deceased. Sometimes it's not the words that are as important as the embrace and maybe it's only through this embrace that any meaningful words come. Most of the recent viewings I've attended have had picture boards or looping videos featuring the deceased throughout their life. These are good because you can see the happy times they shared with others. Finally, at the funeral service, the hymns and readings are often selected by the family and there may be a testimonial given by a family member or close friend. (hide spoiler)]

[Lynne]

Thx David and Bentley (nope, can't even do a reply...) I guess that's a big ole darn. After a whole day writing on my computer, I switch to my tablet in the evenings to give myself the illusion of an unplugged life lol. Oh well.

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

I think you are still on the mobile site Lynne and do not realize it. Because I have no problem with the regular internet website but there are serious issues with the mobile one.

[Samanta]

Response to David - The Atmosphere of the Story

(view spoiler)[ The story does make you want to read it again. On second reading, and influenced by views of other readers here, I have noticed some things I haven't noticed before or forgot about. I have also noticed that suspicion of the priest's behaviour that seems to be lurking in the story, but have totally overlooked the part where it says he strove to prepare the boy for the church. I guess, this is the beauty of Joyce's writing. The underlying suspicion of priest's motives is definitely there, but Joyce leaves the reader to choose which way to take the story.
Whichever way you decide to understand the story, though, the boy feels guilty for feeling a certain relief upon the priest's death. Maybe he really just wanted to play with other kids on the street and didn't really want to be a priest.
Taking care of a sick and/or dying loved one is a physical and emotional endurance test, and I am sure, many of us felt a certain kind of relief when everything was finally over. Unlike you, I felt that the conversation at the end of the story was very superficial, but again I might be influenced by my own experiences. (hide spoiler)]

[Samanta]

Response to David - Customs

(view spoiler)[Funerals are hard for people, and I personally, hate going to them. Nothing can make the loss easier, but making the funeral personalized, instead of doing it the same traditional way, can really help you go through it. Our tradition paints it all in black, and I think it would be easier for the people left alive if we could, instead, add color to it all. I find the tradition in Mexico really appealing, especially if the person who died was a cheerful person who had a very positive view of the world. (hide spoiler)]

[Lynne]

Bentley wrote: "I think you are still on the mobile site Lynne and do not realize it. Because I have no problem with the regular internet website but there are serious issues with the mobile one."

Yep. I'll access GR through the web instead (like now ;) Now I need to catch up.

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Yes Lynne it makes a difference. You are not that far behind and we are never behind here - on a single thread discussion we use the spoiler html so that you can always catch up at any time.

[David]

Samanta wrote: "Response to David - Customs

[spoilers removed]"
(view spoiler)[ thanks for your comments Samanta. Joyce is such a fascinating writer because he leaves so much to the reader to discern. (hide spoiler)]

[Natalie]

I cannot read the discussion at all on my iPad because all of the spoilers are stripped away. Is there a point when discussion of any of these stories no longer remains a "spoiler?" Or a time when we can start discussing the story without using the spoiler format?

I am just curious about that.

[Natalie]

Father Flynn

(view spoiler)[ I have never thought of Father Flynn as a child molester or abuser. My take is that the young boy, our narrator, has found himself around people are are intellectually unsatisfying ((Old Cotter, his aunt; his uncle) and that the growth of his mind is what Father Flynn has stimulated.

His uncle dismisses education. Old Cotter dislikes Father Flynn and says that he would not want his children to consort with him: he says: "let a young lad run about and play with young lads of his own age..."

Our narrator enjoyed learning so much form Father Flynn; he has enjoyed the stories of Rome and catacombs and the way Flynn has showed him how "complex and mysterious" were the ways of the church.

Father Flynn is also intellectually superior to his sisters.

My take is that the narrator is a child like the young James Joyce was: who aches for a more intellectual life; for greater freedom and complexity and challenge in education. I don't suggest that it's an autobiographical story but that the narrator finds Father Flynn to me a wonderful alternative to the conventional small minds that surround him.
(hide spoiler)]

[David]

#3 / customs: Does your culture include visiting families of the departed at the time of the death? Do you bring anything with you?

(view spoiler)[ When I posed this question to my wife who was born and raised in Puerto Rico, she told me about an interesting custom that is practiced there. Following the funeral, for nine consecutive nights, friends and family gather in the home of the deceased to pray the rosary. This is followed by a light snack of cheese and bread. (hide spoiler)]

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Response to David

(view spoiler)[David - having gone through it myself just recently with my late father - I can say that watching a loved one begin to fade is extremely painful. And watching them pass is an horrendous experience for anyone. I do not feel relief (if that is the word) but I do feel a sense that the 'endurance" segment has passed and a release. And though I am always sad for the passing - I know in my instance we had a celebration of his life which helped a great deal. My father was an exceptional pianist so we had a celebration dinner with a pianist who played my father's music and the music he loved. Music was an avocation of his but it had also been a lifelong love. It made the situation and the event livable and the celebration centered on his accomplishments and the totality of his life.

I think in this version Joyce let the reader come to their own conclusions and I guess that is one of the powers of Joyce that he can write in such a way that the reader is able to do that. I think relief in this story is the word which spells out the difference - between someone who misses their loved one and another (like I suspect this boy) who had a complicated relationship with undertones such as the relationship inferences between this priest and that boy. In the situations with the passing of our close loved ones - it really is more of a release from the obligation that one has to endure the process even though all of us would gladly be with them. Whereas in the boy's case (herein lies the identifying factor) it was not so much a release - but really both a relief and a get out of jail card.

A complicated story but you do find other nuances you missed - every time you read it. The beauty of Joyce even with complex, complicated subject matter. And of course everybody is free to come to their own conclusion - another power of the writer (hide spoiler)]

[Natalie]

Gnomon

(view spoiler)[Gnomon means " a parallelogram with a smaller parallelogram missing in one corner" and perhaps this word points to some sort of absence in the narrator's life. It may mean the mystery that Father Flynn introduces the boy to or the way Flynn laughs at the broken chalice.
Because the mathematical meaning is an "absence" it could go hand in hand with the boy's fascination with the word "paralysis"
(hide spoiler)]

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Natalie wrote: "I cannot read the discussion at all on my iPad because all of the spoilers are stripped away. Is there a point when discussion of any of these stories no longer remains a "spoiler?" Or a time when ..."

Natalie - we discussed this problem quite a bit on this thread - you are using the mobile version which is awful - sign into the web version and you will not have these problems - I have iPads too and this works for everyone who knows the difference between the mobile version and the internet one. See message 127 - on single thread discussions we have to use the spoiler html.

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Response to Natalie:

(view spoiler)[Interesting view and ok with us - Joyce allows you to have the interpretation you read and the omissions work (hide spoiler)]

[Paul]

Natalie wrote: "Father Flynn

I have never thought of Father Flynn as a child molester or abuser. My take is that the young boy, our narrator, has found himself around people are are intellectually unsatisfying (..."

(view spoiler)[ I agree, except I think that not only does his uncle dismiss a more introspective life, he is suspicious of it. I don't think Fr. Flynn had any ill intentions, but other adults may have held that suspicion. (hide spoiler)]

[Brett]

Weekly Wrap up

(view spoiler)[ 1. I thought this week's reading were sad and little creepy. The Sister's I though was sad because this priest has died and everyone is gossiping about it. The Encounter I thought was creepy because of the old man the kids meet. He gave off stranger danger vibes. One thing I found very helpful for me is listening to the stories as I read along. Youtube has been awesome for this.

2. I think a big theme so far is children and adolescence. Religion is also a theme which brings me to question 3.

3. To me, so far, it seems like Joyce does not like the emphasis religion has on the people of Dublin. For example, in The Sisters, people are gossiping about the priest and what kind of person he was. For someone who has died it does not seem very respectful, but at the same time the boy and his family still to go the wake and visit with the priest's sisters. So, even though they gossip they still do their religious duty. In The Encounter you can spot some class differences between Catholic and Protestant. Also, the old man talking about getting whipped and how you can get into trouble for talking to girls. Maybe Joyce is making a statement about the oppressiveness of Catholicism in the past or how Catholic schools use to be. (hide spoiler)]

[David]

Bentley wrote: "Response to David

David - having gone through it myself just recently with my late father - I can say that watching a loved one begin to fade is extremely painful. And watching them pass is an hor..."

(view spoiler)[ Bentley, what a beautiful way to celebrate your father's passing: food, family, and music that he himself had created. I think moments like these are a sendoff not only for the deceased but for each one of us who enter into the intimacy of the event. Hopefully, it helps to soften the sharp edges of the loss. (hide spoiler)]

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Thank you David - it did.

[Lynne]

Hi all, testing the html to be sure, bear with me ;) If it works, I actually shared thoughts in said spoiler...

(view spoiler)[Not sure I like the book so far, it's all very stifling and, in Quebec where I live, we sort of threw religion out the window because of the Church maintaining the local French population in the dark for centuries as a means of keeping control. The stories share the same darkness as most of our early litterature. (hide spoiler)]

[Lynne]

I agree with Nathalie, message 138.
(view spoiler)[ While I felt at first the uneasy conversation about Father Flynn between the adults might refer to pedophilia, and maybe it does, I had decided maybe that education was more the suspect here. (Shades of Boko Haram as in education is a sin, not to bring current events in the mix.)

Then I wasn't sure anymore after reading The Encounter. That very creepy old man obviously had nefarious intentions, which threw a shadow on my first impression of education-as-culprit.

I made a mental note to follow the thread in later stories. But in viewing the movie short of The Sisters on YT, the director obviously falls on the side of pedophilia. Did Joyce intend the murkiness or would contemporaries have easily decoded his intent? Hum. Note to self: Read about Joyce's life lol. (hide spoiler)]

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Lynne - success.

[Lynne]

Bentley wrote: "Lynne - success." ;)

[David]

[4. What did Reverend Flynn die of and why was his illness and subsequent death the talk of the town?
(view spoiler)[ We know that his health was declining during his relationship with the boy. He was suffering from paralysis as a result of his third stroke. The Greek derivation of the word paralysis means "disabling the nerves". I think this loss of control was symbolized by his dropping of the chalice. This must have affected him deeply for he could no longer carry out his main priestly duty of celebrating the Mass leaving the door wide open for gossip, innuendo and rumor about Father Flynn among the townspeople. I found it interesting that when no one could locate him, Father Flynn was found hanging out in the dark confessional. Maybe he saw the confessional as a safe, familiar haven where he didn't have to worry about chalices, hosts, the prayers of the Mass or the talk of the town. Ironically, the chalice shows up again when the boy and his aunt visit; this time securely in his hands never to be dropped again as he lies in his coffin. (hide spoiler)]

[Natalie]

Thank you, David, for your enlightening and fully response to the question.

[David]

Q #5 THE SISTERS / characters
(view spoiler)[ I think the sense of freedom that the boy felt after the priest's death was actually a liberation from the feelings of paralysis he himself was experiencing in this relationship. Perhaps he was feeling the pressure of living counter-culturally to the way most boys of his age lived at the time: more inclined toward intellectual pursuits rather than rough-and-tumble play and sport.
Old Cotter makes this point in a rude way and the boy seems offended and troubled which probably contributed to his unsettling dream that night. I'm not sure what Joyce intended the dream to mean but I think it shows the whole situation was weighing heavily on the boy. (hide spoiler)]

[David]

Natalie wrote: "Thank you, David, for your enlightening and fully response to the question."

You're welcome, Natalie. I have lots of time on my hands these days: recovering from knee surgery.

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Some beautiful responses David.

[Terry]

What kind of a relationship do you think, the boy narrator and the priest had?
(view spoiler)[ I agree with David and believe that Father Flynn was instructing the boy narrator with hope that he would enter the priest hood. The narrator's description of his lessons and the questions put to him by the priest illustrated interest and fascination with the complicated institutions of the Church.

It could be that the relief the boy narrator felt was relief from fear of disappointing the priest if he did not choose the priesthood. (hide spoiler)]

[Sarah]

The Sisters

(view spoiler)[Personally, I think that Father Flyn was educating the narrator and the narrator had great pleasure in this. But as Mr Cotter seems to imply, the Father wasn't the gentle man he looked to be and who maybe had been for the best of his life.
I think when he drops the chalice, that's a metaphor for his fall to darker practices. That's what I think Mr Cotter is implying and what I think the sisters are talking about at the end.

Maybe the narrator sensed this fall somehow and I think the 'paralysis' is his too. He sensed the truth, but he could not decipher it. So he remained stuck between his former feelings for the Father and the new notions that the conversation with Cotter seems to imply.
When he then hears Eliza's speech, he finally realises what had happened. Something 'had gone wrong' with that priest.

It has been pointed out in many critiques that while the paralysis is an importnat element of Joyce's aesthetic, the epiphany (as a revelation) is just as important. Eliza's speech 'reveals' the truth to the narrator, allowing his epiphany. Which is why, I believe, the story is entitled The Sisters. (hide spoiler)]

[Samanta]

Response to Lynne

(view spoiler)[As I said to David, I think that Joyce leaves the whole situation open for interpretation. You can decide which aspect you are going stick to. (hide spoiler)]

[Samanta]

Response to David - Paralysis

(view spoiler)[As you continue reading, you will see that the characters of every story face and fight their own version of paralysis. It's a recurring theme in Dubliners. (hide spoiler)]

[Samanta]

Response to Brett - Weekly Wrap Up

(view spoiler)[I agree with you on every point made. I also believe, Joyce was not overly fond of the role religion has in the lives of his countrymen. This is the first thing that I noticed in the stories because I share Joyce's opinion. (hide spoiler)]

[Samanta]

Terry wrote: "What kind of a relationship do you think, the boy narrator and the priest had?

Very good point, Terry!!

[Samanta]

Response to Sarah - Father Flynn

(view spoiler)[Sarah, you make a very interesting point. Do you think that, if your thesis is true, it was something that happened to Flynn in his older age, or was it something he carried within him, and tried to suppress throughout the majority of his life? (hide spoiler)]

[Michele]

Paralysis
(view spoiler)[
Paralysis seems to be a feature in "An Encounter" as well. I had to wonder why the narrator didn't just get up and leave the creepy old man while the guy was off doing whatever (but still in sight). Seems the narrator had some kind of morbid fascination going, even though he was "agitated." Narrator needed some kind of excuse to get away. (hide spoiler)]

[David]

6. Who are the Sisters and why do you think Joyce named the story the way he did?
(view spoiler)[ The priest's sisters most likely, knew him better than any other living human being. I think their entire adult lives were heavily influenced by their brother being a priest.. it must have been very difficult on their social lives. The Catholic church and it's clergy had quite a bit of power over people during that time in Ireland and because of the sisters close relationship and support of Father Flynn, maybe people hesitated to form close relationships with them. So, it's my opinion that Joyce titled the work after the sisters because in his eyes the sacrifice they made was greater than that of the priest. (hide spoiler)]

[Natalie]

Who are the sisters?


(view spoiler)[The sisters, Nannie and Eliza, both represent the many ways in which family members are often inadequate. Note the lack of good grammar. One thing we can say is that we should feel sorry for them because it often happened that the only one in the family to get a proper education was a son, or sons.
They really don't seem to understand their brother at all.

One thing we see again and again in the stories is that family members are often absent (where are the boy's parents?) or else inadequate. The sisters here may be setting up a theme of women being uneducated; kept out of view except when it comes to traditional female things like hospitality; and being looked down upon by the men in their life.


(hide spoiler)]

[Terry]

4. What did Reverend Flynn die of and why was his illness and subsequent death the talk of the town?
(view spoiler)[ I have been thinking of the other symptoms of stoke besides just the paralysis. Strokes can cause changes in personality, cognitive problems similar to Alzheimer's and muscle tremors. The priest's sister Eliza observed It was that chalice he broke...That was the beginning of it. The moping, wandering about by himself and dropping things might be the result of stroke. In the beginning his sisters may have been the only ones who really knew the toll it was taking on him. His awareness that his life was coming to an end may have seemed logical to Father Flynn but inexplicable to others, perhaps even queer.

During my visit to Ireland last year, I had an opportunity to discuss the roll of The Church in the culture and politics of Ireland while hiking with an Irish guide. He was especially insightful on the effect of the abuse of children on the trust of the Irish have in their Church. It wasn't until recently that the abuse of boys was acknowledged and allowed to be voiced. Our minds may go there because of what we know but I don't think Joyce would be alluding to that.

I see a theme of the Church regulating behavior versus running about, playing, talking to girls and general lack of self control. The paralysis in the face of freedom could be an instilled distrust of ones own ability to self regulate. (hide spoiler)]

[Mike]

Ok. I am joining this group. I bought the book and have read "Sisters". As I was reading I was reminded of William Saroyan.

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Glad to have you Mike - Make sure to do citations for other authors and books that are not the one being discussed. Samantha will help you with the guidelines - they are not hard at all. The only other thing you probably noticed is that we use the spoiler html and if you check at the beginning of the thread we show you how to do that too. We are all here for you. Delighted that you have already purchased the Dubliners and have read the first story.

William Saroyan

[Samanta]

Response to Michele - Paralysis

(view spoiler)[Unfortunately I had my fair share of encounters with creepy people while traveling to school or back home, and the same thing happened to me. I just didn't know what to do and how to react. I felt stuck to my seat in the train. (hide spoiler)]

[Samanta]

Response to David and Natalie - The Sisters

(view spoiler)[You give some very interesting POV's on the sisters. They appear only at the end of the story and seem so unimportant, and yet you manage to find them an important place in the story. The more I read your comments, the more I appreciate Joyce's writing.

To be sure, the female members of the family were always left on the sidelines in those times, and, yet, when the going gets tough, they manage everything, despite their own emotional turmoil. (hide spoiler)]

[Samanta]

Response to Terry - Self Control

(view spoiler)[What if this excessive control of our behaviour is what makes us sick in the end? Keeping feelings locked up inside, controlling what you say and do in every moment, because of social rules, can really make us sick, I believe.

Having to be a constant role model in his neighbourhood, might have made Father Flynn sick. (hide spoiler)]

[Sarah]

Response to Smanta - Father Flynn

(view spoiler)[There is no indication how long Father Flynn's questionable behaviours might have gone on, but considering the conversation with Cotter, it must have been quite sometime. The many unspoken things the adults share in that dialogue suggest they know very well what they're talking about. and since that would be somehting secret, I'd say it has been going on long enough to let the secret filter on.
Besides, the narrator's dream suggests (in my opinion) that he sensed something wrong with the prist. I wonder whether the spit on the priest's mouth in the dream simbolises his despise for the office he is covering. (hide spoiler)]

Response to David - The Sister

(view spoiler)[I have the impression that in the behaviour of the Flynn's family, Joyce might be commenting on the behaviour of Irish society at large.
There was a terrible secret in the family and both sisters knew it (Elize speaks, but Nannie never denies). Still they kept that secret, horrible as it might be, until the dead of the prist. At wich point, Nannie still keeps her silence, where Elize speaks of it, but only in riddles - which is a different way to keep the secret.
And still, that secret is known not only by the family, but the community at large, as the conversation with Cutton implies. And the entire community, instead of doing something about it, just talks about it in secret, and judges without facing.
To me, this is an analysis of hypocricy.
We know that the narrator has his epiphany at the end, and so he understads. We don't know what he's going to do about it, which is the moral problem Joyce presents to us, in my opinion. (hide spoiler)]

Response to Natalie - Education

(view spoiler)[Seems to me as if Joyce is making a very complex point about education. Cutter suggests the boy should go out to play with other boys, rather than learn with the priest. He night think this because in his opinion the priest's education is what brought him on the wrong way. Instead of following the Church's teaching without questioning, Father Flynn's education and wide interests might have nudged him to read the teachings in his own way. Which was, of course, the wrong way.
The narrator clearly doesn't agree. He enjoyed Father Flynn's lesson and is even possible that his eduction allowed him the epiphany, the revelation of the truth even amongh Eliza's metaphores.
So it looks like education might be a curse and a bliss. At least this is what this story suggests to me. (hide spoiler)]

[David]

Sarah wrote: "Response to Smanta - Father Flynn

There is no indication how long Father Flynn's questionable behaviours might have gone on, but considering the conversation with Cotter, it must have been quite s..."

Response to Sarah:
(view spoiler)[ As I follow this thread, my appreciation for Joyce as a writer increases. What is my assessment of old Cotter in the opening scene? If I see him as a reliable, credible reporter than that colors the way the rest of the story unfolds for me as a reader. However if I take the side of the boy, who was irritated and seemed to despise old Cotter and portrays him as a gossipy, curmudgeon, than I move through the story with a different mindset. Delightful predicament: and so I move through the rest of these stories in the mode of detective. Excuse me while I ring up Watson. (hide spoiler)]

[Samanta]

Very funny, David! :)

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

David you are funny.