Beta Reader Group discussion
Writing Advice & Discussion
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Self-editing
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Roughseasinthemed wrote: "Post a section up."Okay. Here's a section taken from the first chapter:
Stinging looks of disapproval reach us. They whisper when we walk by, holding our gazes to make sure we know they’re talking about us.
Yes, we’re the working mother and the girl without friends.
The girl who sits alone in class and during lunch. That girl you see walking on the street on her own, but never really notice. And a strange mother, hardworking but never rewarded.
People either stare or ignore us. Because of my mother’s choice; because there’s something wrong with me. To this day, I still don’t know exactly what it is that sets me apart, but there must be something. Perhaps it’s the fact that I prefer books over people, or that I am not a talker. Or perhaps they judge me because of my mother. Whatever it is, I’ve always felt as if there was nothing I could really do about it.
I feel her hand graze my lower back. “Let’s keep going,” my mother says as she ushers me to walk a little faster.
Roughseasinthemed wrote: "I think that reads fine!"Oh. That's nice to know. Thanks for taking a look :)
I'll try and think of some more comments later. Off to bed here soonlies …
I'm a pretty harsh proofreader and think it is fine. I might chsnge usher to encouraged, but other than that, it looks great.
Pat wrote: "I'm a pretty harsh proofreader and think it is fine. I might chsnge usher to encouraged, but other than that, it looks great."I agree usher sat oddly, but thought I was being overly picky. I thought 'urges' when I looked at it, but encouraged would work too.
Rachel, the only other thing I would say is regarding these two pars:"Yes, we’re the working mother and the girl without friends.
The girl who sits alone in class and during lunch. That girl you see walking on the street on her own, but never really notice. And a strange mother, hardworking but never rewarded."
And the only minor quibble is that working and hardworking are a bit repetitive. Maybe reword the second bit, never rewarded for her loyalty/diligence/efficiency/labour/hours put in at work etc.
Roughseasinthemed wrote: "Pat wrote: "I'm a pretty harsh proofreader and think it is fine. I might chsnge usher to encouraged, but other than that, it looks great."I agree usher sat oddly, but thought I was being overly p..."
I like 'urged'. And for some reason, the ' girl you see, but never notice' bothers me. You obviously notice, if you always see her. Msybe, 'the girl you see , but forget immediately' or 'see but disregard'...
There's nothing wrong with it, true, but I found some of it confusing:Yes, we’re the working mother and the girl without friends.
On first read it sounds as if two friends are walking, not a mother and daughter.
Because of my mother’s choice; because there’s something wrong with me.
How would her mother's choice make something wrong with her daughter?
And stinging looks of disapproval? Man that sounds pretty harsh unless these two are hookers or from a circus.
See what I mean? Two paragraphs in and I'm totally confused. Of course this is just my opinion... But others may feel the same.
The trick is to draw the reader, not reveal too much but not lose them either.
Not bad at all but this needs to be on a separate line, and I suggest using "urges" instead of "ushers."“Let’s keep going,” my mother says as she ushers me to walk a little faster.
And most likely beta readers bailed because they have busy lives just as you do. Not very classy, but can't blame them, unless you paid them for it. Same with the editor, if you paid for a service and they don't deliver, it might be that they scammed you. Even if editors are humans and have busy lives, they should be clear on what amount of work they can take on and stick to their made agreements. If that is not the case, get your money back and move to another editor.About not finding an agent: That's just market saturation. The best book will be skipped dozens if not hundreds of times, until it lands on the right person's desk at the right time, with the right mood and whatever else influence people's opinions. Agents get hundreds of manuscripts in. You do the best you can, make your start as enticing as possible and hope it connects with the person reading it and after that you can keep your fingers crossed.
So just keep at it, or research how you can self-publish if you have the means and follow an entirely new road altogether.
- A.J.
Renée wrote: "A few ideas:Stinging looks of disapproval reach us...seems to suggest there is something protective that is sheltering the characters, which is not fully fleshed out.
I figured this might be a bad part to post, lol. The things mentioned are explained before and after :)
Coupled with "People either..."
Emma wrote: "Not everyone bailed Rachel..."I didn't say that. Just a lot of people...
A.J. wrote: "And most likely beta readers bailed because they have busy lives just as you do. Not very classy, but can't blame them, unless you paid them for it. Same with the editor, if you paid for a service ..."I figured the same thing. And I'm not angry at them or anything. Just a little disappointed they didn't tell me :)
And you're right about agents. But after having published with a small independent publisher, I'm scared of self-publishing or indie-publishing in overall.
Granted, I'll go for whatever option works for me. Thanks for the comment!
Rachel, this is like beta reading! Some people say one thing, others say differently. Any extract is going to be out of context. To me, was it intriguing/interesting? Yes. Was it full of errors? No. Was it well written? Pretty much so.
Ed wrote: "There's nothing wrong with it, true, but I found some of it confusing:Yes, we’re the working mother and the girl without friends.
On first read it sounds as if two friends are walking, not a moth..."
Thanks for the advice. This isn't the very start of the chapter, btw. Things are more explained in the rest of the chapter, no worries :)
Roughseasinthemed wrote: "Rachel, this is like beta reading! Some people say one thing, others say differently. Any extract is going to be out of context. To me, was it intriguing/interesting? Yes. Was it full of errors? ..."
Ah, I think I get it, thanks. :)
Anyone else that fancies working with Rachel I'd encourage them to go ahead. I thoroughly enjoyed both working with her and her book. The story is definitely one of the better ones I've worked on recently. Her characters had a lot of depth and her premise and writing style were well executed.
Mod
As to beta readers, yes they can be a mixed bunch. This is why many people are starting to use paid beta services.
Just my view, as a fairly new proofreader/ editor. I LOVE editing and have never bailed. I have a fast turnaround, and read through every book at least twice. I work cheap because I don't have the credentials many do, even though I am thorough and good at what I do. I am not looking to get rich. I realize that there are a lot of authors who are struggling to get published, and feel that by keeping costs down, I am helping them.
Cheap is relative. Lin mentioned edits for $200. I've seen people offering to edit a book for less than I would charge for a beta read. A number seem to be students trying to pay their way through college, others to add extra income to a full-time job. Given the recommended hourly rates in both the UK and US, none of us should be charging less than a grand to do a decent edit and proofread. But I agree with Pat, self-pub authors don't have a huge budget, so I try and keep my prices low too. But there is low and ridiculous. And ridiculous prices help no one.
I think it depends what we mean by bailing. I've read books to price them, and suggested the author needs to do more work before it is edited whether in terms of multiple errors, writing style, or plot and structure. I don't consider that bailing, rather an honest appraisal of work that isn't yet ready for pro editing. I liked Rachel's excerpt, but one can't judge a book on a few pars.
Roughseasinthemed wrote: "Cheap is relative. Lin mentioned edits for $200. I've seen people offering to edit a book for less than I would charge for a beta read. A number seem to be students trying to pay their way through ..."Good points. Vanity publishing has switched to KDP, so a number of authors don't bother with editing. It's enough to see their name on a page. Others, like me, see the editing process as a continuing self-challenge. I could pay for an editor, but I would not have gained the knowledge I've gained from doing it myself. I still remember a negative comment at Smashwords back in 2009. Some authors would have been offended, but each time a reader teaches me something, it's like I've won the lottery.
The ability to upload new and improved manuscripts also affects the process. My first book is on its 5th edition.
Stan wrote: "I could pay for an editor, but I would not have gained the knowledge I've gained from doing it myself."I've read two well edited (to me) books in the last couple of years. I told both authors I was impressed with the quality and they told me they'd both done their own editing. So it does happen. As does paying for editors and ending up with errors and sloppy writing. But there are also a lot of 'self-edited' or 'my husband/mother/best friend edited it' books out there. Many of which are dire, sadly.
Roughseasinthemed wrote: "Stan wrote: "I could pay for an editor, but I would not have gained the knowledge I've gained from doing it myself."I've read two well edited (to me) books in the last couple of years. I told bot..."
I've ran across many like that. More of the self published than from regular publishing houses, but some of both. Baen Publishing in particular has had quality issues.
I'm editing my first fiction novel now. I spent three months writing it (years thinking it through though) and am now on my fourth month of editing. I have somebody helping me to edit this time around (my highschool honors english teacher from about a decade ago) and plan on this being my last time. I took it in stages. Here are the times I edited and what I focused on for each stage:1) Fix any glaring issues and obviously bad writing. Make the story coherent.
2) Add and subtract (mostly add) content that needs additional explaining. It's easy to know what you want to convey but hard to know if there's enough for people to read it the way you see it.
3) Adverb editing round and other subpar things. I went through this time and killed unnecessary adverbs and other subpar language. Included getting rid of words that are repeated too often and making sure timeline is correct.
4) Comprehensive edit. Try and make the novel sing line-by-line. This has been my most comprehensive edit and I'm 3/4 of the way done. Already a month and a half on this stage.
5) Final edit. This includes the feedback from my teacher and is basically tackling anything he thinks is odd. Whenever I get feedback on what I sent him, I go through and address it immediately. I'm always quite a bit ahead of him though, so I do this while doing my fourth round. We're through part of Chapter 3 (it's 20 chapters plus an intro and conclusion) but he's supposed to be sending through Chapter 5 soon.
Unless I have the help of an agent or publishing firm, I refuse to do any more editing (other than maybe changing a word or two that I see along the way) after this is all done, the exception being that I may go back and rewrite my intro (it's less than 500 words long so it's not a problem). Anything more would be akin to unspeakable torture.
I'll add my two cents in! I wrote a terrible, terrible first draft, sent it off to beta readers half finished, and cried for months when their feedback was negative. But then I picked myself up and studied. I looked up how to write a cohesive narrative, I followed an agent's blog for writing tips (Janet Reid, if you were wondering!! An excellent resource), and I read a lot. Then I rewrote that terrible draft over the course of months (while in college, just when I had spare time) and now I have something semi-presentable. Nowhere near finished, but definitely better than before. Truly, I think self editing comes with research, practice, patience, and time. You have to make all the dumb mistakes before you can move forward. So to Rachel, don't worry about making mistakes at this stage. As my grandmother says, "once you know better, you can do better."@Dan, make sure you don't use the phrase "fiction novel" in any kind of query!! Agents hate that. Also don't forget to get beta readers somewhere in between steps 4 and 5 :)
Fair enough! Thanks for the tip. I only stated it that way because I previously published a self-published non-fiction piece, lol. I also agree with your point about reading a lot. It was suggested that I read more fiction (I've been reading nothing but non-fiction for the past 8 years or so). Good first person ideas would be the Red Queen series (I've read both books and pre-ordered King's Cage), and for third person I'd suggest The Passage. The first 150 pages are ehhh but after that it's really good and descriptive. :)
So, I've been editing my book for months now and I keep getting stuck. I worked with beta readers and Critique Partners and even an editor, but I'm just not getting anywhere. This probably has something to do with the fact that a lot of betas, CPs and my editor bailed on me, but I would still like to know your opinion.
I used most of the advice I received, but there still seems to be something wrong with my manuscript. I mean... if betas keep ignoring me and agents keep rejecting me, something is wrong, right?
My biggest problem is that my life is very busy. I have a job and am still studying, so my time for writing is already limited. Otherwise I would have joined a Critique Group or something.
(No, I'm not making excuses...)My question is: How do you edit your own writing? Because I seem to be able to see what others do wrong, but I'm having trouble seeing the mistakes in my own writing. Honestly, I've always had this problem. And blogs, videos, websites, books and other things about editing aren't helping me out much...
I would love it if any of you could help. :)
Thank you,
Rachel.