Victorians! discussion
Archived Group Reads 2009-10
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Middlemarch - Books 1 & 2
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Anna wrote: "I'm not sure it's okay to call Eliot a feminist when the concept wasn't around in her time. We could say she was a supporter of suffrage or interested in the Woman Question, which she was..."This is an issue over which a great deal of critical ink has been spilled! the Oxford Companion to George Eliot, which refers one looking under the term "feminism" to the article titled "the woman question," devotes four pages to the article, which is a fairly lengthy treatment for this format. They suggest that "her origins as a novelist coincided with the origins of modern feminism," but while she was sensitive to the issues of women (how could such a brilliant woman not be?), she avoided getting involved in the political arena concerning the issue: as the Companion notes, her reluctance to lend her energies to the new movement has been the cause of both suspicion and disappointment." While she enthusiastically supported women's education because "the better education of women is one of the objects about which I have no doubt," but in 1852 she wrote in "'Enfranchisement of women' only makes only creeping progress; and that is best, for woman does not yet deserve a much better lot than man gives her." And when John Stuart Mill entered Parliament in 1880 and pressed the issue of enfranchisement for women, she "scolded" a friend for advocating for "an extremely doubtful good."
My view is that despite her unorthodox life, she was basically conservative when it came to social change, preferring slow and cautious progress -- a viewpoint which readers here may identify or disagree with in terms of the progress of Middlemarch!
Interesting. It seems to me I read somewhere (could be wrong about this) that Edith Wharton, who also wrote about women's social imprisonment, was actually rather conservative on the question of female emancipation in real life? Everyman can probably clear this up for me, as he is the resident scholar!
Everyman wrote: "Sandybanks wrote: "Society's strictures compel her to enter into a loveless (and somewhat degrading) marriage to Casaubon for the sake of attaining knowledge and a meaningful life outside of the do..."Everyman, my understanding is that Victorian society barred women from undertaking serious academic studies, and also that it was a very prudish society. The marriage is Dorothea's only way to associate herself with a 'great scholar' (to her mind) like Casaubon without breaking society's strictures on those matters. Therefore, it could be said that society's strictures compel her into that marriage. It is interesting to compare Dorothea's way to achieve her intellectual ambition with Eliot's own path to it.
As to whether Dorothea ever loved Casaubon --- no, I don't think so. At least not with him as a person as opposed to him as a personification of the great scholar that she admires. She never bothered to find out anything about his personality and true character.
Everyman wrote: "Anna wrote: "I'm not sure it's okay to call Eliot a feminist when the concept wasn't around in her time. We could say she was a supporter of suffrage or interested in the Woman Question, which she ..."That's fascinating, Everyman. I'm curious as to why she was an advocate of women's education but an opponent of women's suffrage. Perhaps she thought that the majority of women then were still too uneducated and uninformed to vote intelligently?
Heidi wrote: "Incidentally, speaking of romantics, I think Mary Shelley was also pretty "feminist" in spirit, wasn't she?..."I agree!...her mother was Mary Wollstonecraft - author of 'The Vindication of the Rights of Women', who died when Mary Shelley was a small girl. Her father was an intellectual and consequently Mary Shelley led a very unusual and bohemian life for a woman in her day and age. She helped with her father's research and met many of the prominent writers and scientists of the day in her father's salons.
Everyman wrote: "This is an issue over which a great deal of critical ink has been spilled! the Oxford Companion to George Eliot, which refers one looking under the term "feminism" to the article titled "the woman question," devotes four pages to the article, which is a fairly lengthy treatment for this format. They suggest that "her origins as a novelist coincided with the origins of modern feminism," but while she was sensitive to the issues of women (how could such a brilliant woman not be?), she avoided getting involved in the political arena concerning the issue..."Wow Everyman - Thanks so much for this! - extremely interesting.
Ally
Thalia wrote: "Now having not gotten much farther than the prelude I don't have much to offer. I too was wondering about the male psuedonymn...."I stumbled upon this explanation for an earlier ponderance on the choice of "George Eliot". It appears I was somewhat correct:
----Mary Anne then adopted George Eliot as her nom de plume. She later told John Cross that she chose the name because "George was Mr. Lewes's Christian name, and Eliot was a good mouth-filling, easily pronounced word" (Cross I, 310).---
Heidi wrote: Interesting. It seems to me I read somewhere (could be wrong about this) that Edith Wharton, who also wrote about women's social imprisonment, was actually rather conservative on the question of female emancipation in real life? Everyman can probably clear this up for me, as he is the resident scholar!."I am by no means the resident scholar. And I actually know quite little about Edith Wharton. I did read The House of Mirth and The Age of Innocence many years ago, but she's not one of my primary interests. But I expect somebody else knows, if they're willing to admit it!
Sandybanks wrote: "Everyman, my understanding is that Victorian society barred women from undertaking serious academic studies,"They were certainly mostly barred from formal higher education -- although both Oxford and Cambridge did allow women to attend some lectures starting I think around the 1880s, Oxford didn't admit women to full membership in the University 1920 (right after the end of WWI, after so many young men's lives had been lost in the war that they had to do something with the young women who would never find husbands, and also the number of potential students at the universities was suddenly very much smaller), and Cambridge not until 1948 (is there something about war that hastens social change??)
But many women read quite seriously at home -- the Brontes, for just one example. Many biographies of women writers and intellectuals of the Victorian era talk about how they were self-educated with the run of their father's or some other relative's library.
But you're right that the opportunities for formal academic study were quite limited, at least in England; I don't know what the situation was on the continent. And in the US, Oberlin was co-ed from its founding in 1833, and Swarthmore College, founded by the Quakers in, I believe, 1848 was also co-ed from the start. So there was much more opportunity for women in academia over here than in England.
Everyman wrote: "Sandybanks wrote: "Everyman, my understanding is that Victorian society barred women from undertaking serious academic studies,"They were certainly mostly barred from formal higher education -- a..."
Had Dorothea been born a hundred years later, she would have gone down to Oxford/Cambridge, got her Ph.d in theological studies and then spend her life being an Oxford/Cambridge don. But as she was a young woman in 1830's provincial England , there wasn't much that she could have done to further her intellectual ambitions other than to marry Casaubon. I assume that the kind of theological/mythological studies that she is interested in is not the kind that could be studied alone at home.
Or perhaps she should just have crossed the Atlantic and gone to Oberlin! :-)
sorry, I have tried but I'm giving up! I really can't get into this book - maybe try again later? Life's too short and I have loads more books to read. Sorry!
Maggie wrote: "sorry, I have tried but I'm giving up! I really can't get into this book - maybe try again later? Life's too short and I have loads more books to read. Sorry!"Took me a bit to get into the book too, Maggie, probably ten pages or so (after about two mis-starts). The language, although like a long lost friend to me, is also somewhat like trying to recall your childhood tongue of the mother country having not spoken it in decades. But once I got into it, it was really quite fun.
I'm loving the Mr Brooke character of all people. He makes me laugh. I can quite clearly imagine him in my head. All his bluster about women being the weaker sex intellectually, etc. Dorothea is frightening as I see so much of me in her it makes me cringe, lol! Mrs Cadwallader sure is a little firecracker. Infact my favourite line so far is hers "...But now I wish her joy of her hair shirt." (speaking of Dorothea's choice to marry Causaubon)
Scott wrote: "Does anyone know of any good biographies on George Eliot? I find it might enlighten my understand a bit if i read something about her..."I found that this book got really good feedback
The Real Life of Mary Ann Evans George Eliot, Her Letters and Fiction by Rosemarie Bodenheimer. Now remember I haven't read it myself but have a look.
Thalia wrote: "Scott wrote: "Does anyone know of any good biographies on George Eliot? I find it might enlighten my understand a bit if i read something about her..."I found that this book got really good fee..."
I will mark this book down to read. thanks!!
I found this documentary online as well on her.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dl0ZUn...
Thalia wrote: "Maggie wrote: "sorry, I have tried but I'm giving up! I really can't get into this book - maybe try again later? Life's too short and I have loads more books to read. Sorry!"Took me a bit to..."
I like Mr. Brooke! and also Fred for some reason.. even though he has such bad luck so far.
Thalia wrote: "I have just begun the book as I was finishing up some other group reads. I'm a quick reader generally so I should make some headway. Now having not gotten much farther than the prelude I don't ha..."Ya, it seems George was taken from her lover as she liked that name. I realize from reading what i have over this last few days that she chose this pen name not to just be taken seriously, but more because of some of the scandalous events she had become associated with. Her books would may have been severely put down if she had written under her real name.
Anna wrote: "Heidi wrote: "Allhug wrote: "I find Dorothea a bit of an idealist - she's looking for a intellectually charged life rarely open to women of her time and is almost destined to have her dreams curtai..."We could say proto-feminist. Though her life itself is so liberal in direction compared to Victorian ideals I almost find it hard pressed not to almost consider her a feminist. Her ability to just stop going to church at 22 and to have specific arguments against the Anglican church gives such an interesting reflection as to how free her mind was.
Everyman wrote: "Scott wrote: It seems you have read a bio on Eliot? I cannot respond to some of this as i have not read any biography on her nor have i studied in depth the 1830s provincial English life. I am glea..."Thank you very much for pointing me out to these online references.. i think it has enlightened my understanding quite alot, and gives more comprehension to the storylines within Middlemarch. I am now very curious to read The Mill on the Floss
I'm sorry I gave up on the book, but am enjoying the discussions and learning alot too! thanks
Anna wrote: "Scott wrote: "Anna wrote: "Heidi wrote: "Allhug wrote: "I find Dorothea a bit of an idealist - she's looking for a intellectually charged life rarely open to women of her time and is almost destine...""I think her life was liberal compared to what we think of as the Victorian standard, but a great deal of that is a 20th c. fiction created by children of the Victorians."
i am not completely clear as to what your meaning is. Are you referring to the life of Eliot or are you referring to the Victorian period in general?
Anna wrote: "Scott wrote: "Anna wrote: "Heidi wrote: "Allhug wrote: "I find Dorothea a bit of an idealist - she's looking for a intellectually charged life rarely open to women of her time and is almost destine..."How do you know what is myth and what is not? Do you have references? Just curious as i am trying to research the period as much as possible. thanks.
Anna has a good point, that a lot of what we think of the Victorian era isn't really what it was like at all.We also have to keep in mind that the Victorian era lasted for 63 sometimes tumultuous years. In modern comparison, that would be from 1946 to today. Do you really think you could specify one set of moral codes which would encompass from the end of WWII through the 1950s, the 1960s, the 1970s, etc. up to today? From Big Band to gangsta rap? From Our Town to the Vagina Monologue? That's the length of time that "Victorian" covers. It can't really be treated monolithically!
A couple of books (among many) you might find useful, Scott, if you can get them from the library or on interlibrary loan, are Richard Altick's Victorian People and Ideas: A companion for the modern reader of Victorian Literature, The Cambridgge Companion to the Victorian Novel edited by Deirdre David, Sally Mitchell's Daily Life in Victorian England, and A.N. Wilson's The Victorians. These are just a few ideas; there are many other excellent books on the social and moral life of the era, which it seems you are more interested in than a historical treatment.
Anna wrote: "Oh, and I meant that a great deal of what we think of as the Victorian mindset or way of life is exaggerated or was created after the fact. Not that Eliot's life was fiction :) "But is it true that women who deviated from society's norm, like George Eliot, were ostracized? How were they treated? What else is 'myth' instead of reality?
*curious*
Anna wrote: "I think ostracized is a hard word here. Women like George Eliot, M.E. Braddon, even Elizabeth Browning, who made unconventional choices, were to some extent shut off from 'normal' society, ..."Great points, Anna. You're right that the Victorians were quite different from the usual conception of "Victorian."
Speaking of the Victorian mindsets (there were many over that 63 year period!), though, I think Eliot in Middlemarch has pretty much nailed the major social issues and approaches of 1830 (slightly pre-Victorian, but close enough to describe England when Victoria took the throne). With your considerable study of Victorians, do you agree, or do you find her inaccurate, and if so in what ways?
Everyman wrote: "Anna has a good point, that a lot of what we think of the Victorian era isn't really what it was like at all.We also have to keep in mind that the Victorian era lasted for 63 sometimes tumultuous..."
I am interested in the extremes of the Ideal verses the reality. There is a sort of mythic and fantasy quality to the ideal which led to interesting reactions, developments, and stories. Currently i am reading one book which is quite extensive on this. I will take a look at the other you mention. I may already have some marked to read.
No, I am not just looking into that area over 'historical treatment', but I also take 'history' with a grain of salt depending on who is telling it and the perspective.
Anna wrote: "Scott wrote: "Anna wrote: "Scott wrote: "Anna wrote: "Heidi wrote: "Allhug wrote: "I find Dorothea a bit of an idealist - she's looking for a intellectually charged life rarely open to women of her..."I will take a look at those as well.. haha.. it seems i have an endless list of reading now. Several years worth. My interest, if we are talking about the Victoria myth and the reality is just that.. as an artist i like the feel of extremes of what is real and then the fantasy perfect morality. The play of the two is fascinating and it is one of the reasons i am interested in the Victorian period. Not the only one though. Thanks for the reference, i am sure i will continue to have questions. ;-)
Anna wrote: "Oh, and I meant that a great deal of what we think of as the Victorian mindset or way of life is exaggerated or was created after the fact. Not that Eliot's life was fiction :) "I guess there is always an aspiring ideal, much like the American dream ideal, but reality is not always accommodating.
Sandybanks wrote: "Anna wrote: "Oh, and I meant that a great deal of what we think of as the Victorian mindset or way of life is exaggerated or was created after the fact. Not that Eliot's life was fiction :) "But ..."
That is exactly what I was wanted to ask, what are some examples which relate to what we are reading?
Anna wrote: "I think ostracized is a hard word here. Women like George Eliot, M.E. Braddon, even Elizabeth Browning, who made unconventional choices, were to some extent shut off from 'normal' society, but so w..."What is an example of a woman author or artist who was more uncoventional but not cast out in some way?
Everyman wrote: "Anna wrote: "I think ostracized is a hard word here. Women like George Eliot, M.E. Braddon, even Elizabeth Browning, who made unconventional choices, were to some extent shut off from 'normal' soci..."I am interested to hear the reply to this question by Everyman. :-)
Anna wrote: "Everyman wrote: "Anna wrote: "I think ostracized is a hard word here. Women like George Eliot, M.E. Braddon, even Elizabeth Browning, who made unconventional choices, were to some extent shut off f..."Yes, it is true. I have to think of this book in particular as what it is, fiction. Eliot could have written in anything she wanted and any viewpoint or idea from the time she wrote from into the 1830s setting.
In thinking on it, so far in the book I have been less and less thinking of it in terms of a commentary on womens roles then a commentary on the choices people make in their lives for good or for ill. But simply still, it is just a fiction story.
I was thinking about what you said earlier and realized a good example of the myth becoming greater then the reality is Florence Nightingale. How she was seen as a savior but in reality she contributed to many many deaths through ignorance. I guess that could be an example, still the myth lives on.
i will try to read eventually a good biography on Eliot to gain a greater depth of her life. Didnt though people talk against her even later though when she had done well? I guess that would be similar to Charlotte as well that she gained more recognition and came into the well known literary circles later on. Though Emily was somewhat ostricized I think for her more radical writing.
"I have never thought about this novel as a commentary on women's roles as much as I have in this discussion. I'm not sure that was one of Eliot's main concerns in the novel, although it's certainly there."I agree that women's issues is not the main concern in Middlemarch, but I feel that it is a strong element in Dorothea's story. Had other options been open to her, such as studying in a university to further her intellectual ambitions, she would not have married Casaubon. Eliot is making a commentary on the effect of society's strictures on women like Dorothea. I suppose that she's looking backward to women's situation in the 1830's from her comparatively more progressive era, the 1860's.
Well - I've finally finished 'Book 1 - Miss Brooke' (...it took me a while but I got there in the end). - Overall I feel that book 1 was a really effective introduction to the Novel.Themes I've identified that I expect to weave their way through the rest of the novel are...
1. The Class System within a Class System -
Obviously the emerging middle classes were differentiating themselves from the lower/working classes and the upper/landed classes - that is almost a given and not really the main point of this theme as far as I can see. - The point for me is more the different layers of acceptability within the Middle Class itself.
We have Mrs Cadwallader (...a wonderful character), who seems to have started life closer to the upper classes but has married a 'lowly' clergyman. She seems to represent the top of this particular middle class tree. (Are Sir James Chettam & Mr Brooke upper class with land and property or are they still classed as upper middle class???). Mrs Cadwallader's snobberies verge on the hilarious!
Then we have the Vincy's, who represent the Merchant class derided by Mrs Cadwallader, but who seem to hold a great deal of power due to their monetary wealth. Their snobberies are looked upon less fondly by the narrator than Mrs Cadwallader's seem to be. They come across as pompous and misguided and quite frankly a little opportunist.
We then have Lydgate, a doctor who is the younger son of a wealthy family in the North and therefore has a certain social standing even without the wealth to back that up.
Ladislaw again seems to be in an inferior position within society because his mother 'made a bad match' - the making of good marriages seems all consuming in establishing social position!
There is also Mary Garth, who is looked down upon because of her plainness and the lack of money her aunt brought to the first marriage of Mr Featherstone.
The layers of snobbery and society concerns within one simple class system (the middle class) seems overwhelming and has been dealt with quite well by Eliot - rather tongue in cheek in places. I'm really warming to her writing style.
2. The Narrowness of Traditional Female Roles in Society.
The second main theme established in the novel is bound up with the exact nature of women’s roles in society & is perpetuated as much by the women as the men in this patriarchal society.
We have Lydgate, Brooke etc who feel that women have feeble minds not capable of educational depth and only of value for how well they adorn the lives of their men. Miss Vincy seems to embody this feminine 'ideal'.
Miss Brooke on the other hand offers a tantalising glimpse of '...the road less travelled' but seems doomed to failure in her quest for a more meaningful life despite Casaubon's initial intentions for her to help with his studies.
The way that Eliot deals with this theme is puzzling me at the moment - she seems to be saying that there are other options available for women in an advanced sort of way but then pulling the rug from under those options and re-iterating 'the norm'. For example - Dorothea, when she visits her new home-to-be ends up being 'housed' in an extremely feminine bedroom for one who would prefer the masculine domain of the library and Lydgate, seemingly a forward thinking scientific man holds some quite antiquated and conservative views on the role of women.
Some might say that Eliot is bringing a bit of balance but for me its confusing her message - she seems to be saying "one the one hand..." "...but then again..." on every issue she raises. This is infuriating me at the moment!
3. Science & the Pursuit of knowledge
I hope this theme will be expanded upon in the next sections of the novel as so far there have only been some tantalising glimpses of the pursuit of knowledge.
Anyway - I'm off to begin section 2 (...hopefully it won't take me as long as section 1!!!)
Ally
Seconding the suggestions of Victorian People and Ideas (When I tried to "add book" it suggested Daniel Deronda! I was much amused.) and Inside the Victorian Home A Portrait of Domestic Life in Victorian England.Rise of Respectable Society A Social History of Victorian Britain, 1830-1900, by F.M.L. Thompson, is also good.
I'm surprised at how unromantic in tone this book is. I don't think I've read a Victorian novel which was less flowery.
Peregrine wrote: "I'm surprised at how unromantic in tone this book is. I don't think I've read a Victorian novel which was less flowery."yes, this book shows various marriage problems..I think that's one of the reasons which makes this book appear really realistic...Not the typical romance story...
That's probably why Virginia Woolf liked it.
I am just starting this one with another group. Thanks for those of you who have posted. It has been wonderful to read your comments.
Victorians!
Books mentioned in this topic
The Rise of Respectable Society: A Social History of Victorian Britain, 1830-1900 (other topics)Inside the Victorian Home: A Portrait of Domestic Life in Victorian England (other topics)
The Mill on the Floss (other topics)
The Real Life of Mary Ann Evans: George Eliot, Her Letters and Fiction (other topics)
The Victorian Girl and the Feminine Ideal (other topics)
Depends on how you define feminism. Plato, after all, was advocating equality of men and women back nearly 2,500 years ago. More recently, in the 1660s the Quakers were advocating equality for women (and minorities), and had women ministers who were fully equal to male ministers.
But perhaps what we recognize as feminism started in the Victorian era, particularly as you note with Wollstonecraft's writings. But there has been a lot going on in the issue of female equality for far longer than the term feminism has been around.