World, Writing, Wealth discussion
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Mentality differences
Scout wrote: "Adrian said in response to my post about no way to fight Congress's power: "Vote them out is how you fight it." Nonsense. The next guys you vote in will be just as dependent on big money for contributions and just as controlled by them. It's freaking impossible to change the system.
Agree or disagree?"
I completely agree with you, Scout. Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.
Agree or disagree?"
I completely agree with you, Scout. Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.
Scout wrote: "Adrian said in response to my post about no way to fight Congress's power: "Vote them out is how you fight it." Nonsense. The next guys you vote in will be just as dependent on big money for contri..."Disagree. Voting is the way to go.
Scout wrote: "I've talked to people in the UK, and there's universal health care, but then there's private health care for those with money. They get the best docs, and they get faster treatment.I'd say that w..."
That is about a good an explanation as I have heard.
I personally believe that the vast majority of the human population is physically and mentally able to learn the skills and knowledge required to earn the necessary income to achieve, at the very least, a comfortable and enjoyable lifestyle, including the best medical care available. Those who, through no fault of ther own, do not possess the physical and/or mental attributes required to earn a decent living deserve and are worthy of whatever support and care needed.
Those who are capable, but for whatever reason or excuse, refuse to earn a living neither deserve nor should they receive something for nothing.
The source of the following definition: Merriam-Webster English Dictionary
earn / verb 1 : to receive as a return for service 2 : DESERVE, MERIT syn gain, secure, get, obtain, acquire, win --- earner noun
It is not just being capable. One can be very capable of doing a certain job but there may be no opportunity to do it. Most people seek employment, but that requires available employers. Not everybody has what it takes to make an independent living, and from experience I assure you it is not that easy.
Ian wrote: "It is not just being capable. One can be very capable of doing a certain job but there may be no opportunity to do it. Most people seek employment, but that requires available employers. Not everyb..."One may not always have the opportunity to obtain the specific type of job they want. One must occasionally accept the job they can get, at least temporarily.
I am unfamiliar with the situation in your country (New Zealand), but currently, in the United States, one cannot travel more than a quarter-mile without noticing several businesses with a Help Wanted/Now Hiring sign prominently placed.
I agree with you that earning an independent living is not easy. As a young man, I had to work two jobs for six years to support my wife and children before finally obtaining a position that paid enough to render a second job unnecessary. With few exceptions, where there is a will, there is a way. Very few worthwhile things are obtained easily, that is why it is called work !
Depends. Take two situations here. One is the big pulp mill in the centre of our North Island, owned by a multinational. The only reason for the local town is the mill. Multi decides to close it. Now what for the employees. They have sunk their earnings into a house that is fairly close to unsaleable. They have skills, but where will they be employed. Yes, some will move and spend the rest of their lives paying off the mortgage for an abandoned house, and yes, they can probably find subsistence ways of living, but . . . A similar situation involves the big aluminium mill at the other end of the country.The other situation involves people in remote places who established themselves for the tourist industry, but the government has closed that down due to a virus (well, they stopped tourists coming, which has the same effect). Now what? Again, their whole wealth and debtors are tied up in a place that is so remote there are no options other than doing something local, but what?
In each of those cases, walking to see a help wanted sign would involve at least a hundred kilometres, and that would be as "crow flies". The walk may involve a serious trek through mountains. The road would be much longer.
Many choose to accept their current situation and problems as inevitable and beyond their control. They justify their lack of ambition or determination to overcome hardship by stating: "That's just the way it is." Others envision the way things could be and expend whatever effort, energy, and limited resources necessary to overcome and constantly improve upon their current situation."Success is not final, failure is not fatal: It is the courage to continue that counts."
Winston Churchill (Former Politician/U.K. Prime Minister) 1874 - 1965
"Some men see things as they are and say why. I dream things that never were and say why not."
Robert Kennedy (Former U.S. Attorney General/Politician/Presidential Contender) 1925 - 1968
Take the case of a single mother abandoned by the father or the father is in jail. She cannot afford child care to work. Should she have ambition and try to work or take care of her child. Should the state help her to help the child? Or claim it's all her own fault for meeting a feckless man and having a child? Sometimes social care is necessary. A helping hand is necessary. The UK had the charity system for centuries. Post WWII (and before) it began to introduce its welfare state. Yes, sometimes this allows the lazy to get away with not working but it also helps millions to have a life or to restart.
I agree with Jim and J in terms of the benefits of hard work and a positive attitude but, overall, I'm with Philip and Ian. In terms of equality of opportunity, life is far more 'equal' for some than others. The compassionate conservative recognises this and acts accordingly.
On life's ladder, I favour offering a hand to the person below me rather than stamping on their fingers, even if it means grabbing hold of the ankle of the person above me with the other hand.
As an interesting aside, I have noticed in real life, away from goodreads, that many people who have always championed a laissez-faire, survival of the fittest attitude to economics (mocking government intervention to help the poor) have been the very same people begging their government to intervene and lockdown the population to save themselves from getting a sore throat and runny nose :)
On life's ladder, I favour offering a hand to the person below me rather than stamping on their fingers, even if it means grabbing hold of the ankle of the person above me with the other hand.
As an interesting aside, I have noticed in real life, away from goodreads, that many people who have always championed a laissez-faire, survival of the fittest attitude to economics (mocking government intervention to help the poor) have been the very same people begging their government to intervene and lockdown the population to save themselves from getting a sore throat and runny nose :)
As Philip hinted at, always better to get conned by 2 cheats if it means helping 1 genuine person in need.
More to the point, those who have always championed a laissez-faire, survival of the fittest attitude to economics are often the ones that screech the loudest begging for government help when things go badly. They are the ones who take the begging bowl to government to get the rules changed to benefit them. They are the ones that advocate for lower taxes when they don't pay much in the way of tax anyway.
Spot on, Ian. Hey, it's great agreeing with you. I feel like i have the science on my side :)
Philip wrote: "Take the case of a single mother abandoned by the father or the father is in jail. She cannot afford child care to work. Should she have ambition and try to work or take care of her child. Should t..."Your single mother's situation is not pure misfortune. She chose the wrong man.
The unfortunate one is the child who through no fault of his/her own will suffer for the choices of his/her parents. I can find value in arguments for the child's welfare. But the parents wove their own fates.
Ian wrote: "More to the point, those who have always championed a laissez-faire, survival of the fittest attitude to economics are often the ones that screech the loudest begging for government help when thing..."Speak for yourself. I have found myself in more than a few tough spots. And I have always known that there was nobody to help me but me.
I'm not sure, there is a correlation btw those advocating for free market and being first to ask for intervention, although we know the tendency to privatize the profits and socialize the costs.I guess the US/European mentality difference is evident: lone wolves vs packed one :)
Nik's reference to the U.S/Euopean mentality difference in Message 123 is a valid point. However, I think there is more to it. It inspired me to view Ian's profile to see how his and my backgrounds and life experiences might influence why our viewpoints regarding independence, discipline, and self-sufficiency differ.Ian is a semi-retired chemist who lives in New Zealand. His academic achievements are impressive and includes a PhD.
Ian has also written and published a number of books, all of which are commercially available. Some pertain to actual scientific theories and some fiction/science fiction which addresses interaction with an advanced alien race, including military engagement and strategy.
My academic achievement is limited to a high school diploma. After graduating in 1965, I enlisted in the U.S. Marine Corps and am a Vietnam veteran.
After being discharged in 1968, I got a job as a shipping clerk with the H.J. Heinz Company in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. 5 promotions and 33 years later, I retired as the manager of the company's Pittsburgh facility. Still retired - 20 years and counting.
I wrote just one book, a dystopian novel. It was only commercially available from Aug., 2011 through Dec. 2016. The publisher declared bankruptcy and went out of business; perhaps due to signing too many authors like myself.
Perhaps such very different backgrounds and life experiences explain our differing opinions. The historian/philosopher, Voltaire aka Francois Marie Arouet (1694 - 1778) once said: "I may disagree with what you have to say, but I shall defend to the death your right to say it." Granted, a bit melodramatic, but I can think of no better way to end my participation within this discussion. I rest my case.
J. wrote: "Ian wrote: "More to the point, those who have always championed a laissez-faire, survival of the fittest attitude to economics are often the ones that screech the loudest begging for government hel..."Irrelevant to my point unless you are really rich. Are you too big to fail?
Jim, one point you may have missed because it is less obvious. As I have mentioned, I have been involved with Nemidon skin gels, but all some products that have other interesting uses. What you find is that for many of these, especially agricultural ones, the multinationals get to lobby Government approval Boards and get regulations put in place so their products are allowed and the little guys' are not.And for J's benefit, the nemidon project has received no government aid whereas when the virus appeared, a whole lot of competitors got aid for products that did not work. All we wanted was assistance to prove that a certain product woulds to[p and kill the virus regarding contact transmission. No luck there.
Ian wrote: "Irrelevant to my point unless you are really rich. Are you too big to fail?"Your point is an ad hominem straw man. You're seeking to set up and attack a weak argument by disparaging the character of your opponents with a broad brush. I believe in the power of free markets, and I don't go crying to Big Brother whenever things go bad. My existence holes your point.
I have no intention of damaging character. I suppose my first sentence could be too broad, but when I continued with : "They are the ones who take the begging bowl to government to get the rules changed to benefit them. They are the ones that advocate for lower taxes when they don't pay much in the way of tax anyway."To apply to you, you had to be in a position to be going to government to get rules changed to benefit you, and you not pay much tax. I am assuming neither apply to you. I could be mistaken as i really don't know your situation.
To clarify, I was referring to the likes of the Koch brothers, the operators of the big banks, the guys that got bailed out in 2008. The guys that lobby so that in free trade negotiations, the trade from their offshore competitors is not exactly free.
Jim wrote: "Nik's reference to the U.S/Euopean mentality difference in Message 123 is a valid point. However, I think there is more to it. It inspired me to view Ian's profile to see how his and my backgrounds..."Personal experience adds to it, but in many discussions over the years we have this recurrent similar division between two sides of the Atlantics plus Oceania (or parts of it). If in the States many folks here (except maybe Lizzie) count solely on their own with winners or losers, detest government, have initial negative bias to those on subsidies (if I could've prevailed anyone can) and demonstrate less of a community approach, on the right side of the ocean (if you face the map), folks demonstrate more solidarity to compatriots and willingness to extend through government programs a helping hand in different circumstances. Not giving grades to either approach, just share personal observations.
To those expressing differing views and attitudfes pertaining to this discussion subject, or any other for that matter, I offer what I consider to be a philosophy worthy of serious consideration."Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who matter don't mind and those who mind don't matter."
Bernard Baruch (Financier/Statesman/Author) 1917 - 1994
Papaphilly wrote: "We are a funny people. It is not really about status, but hanging on to what you have. We really do not like when someone beats the system except ourselves. So, I work very hard and put the hours i..."The problem with these programs is that they throw around the word "free" like the doctors, nurses, hospitals, clinics, pharmacies are all going to volunteer their products and services. Stuff has to be paid for and the only way you can get the money to pay for stuff is through charitable donations, taxes or theft.
There are some who, through no fault of their own, suffer physical and/or mental disabilities and are, therefore, unable to be self-sufficient. They require and are deserving of aid and support. That said; the vast majority of the population do possess the intellectual capacity and physical capability to not only adequately provide for themselves but, occasionally, help others less fortunate.In the United States, 72% of its population profess to believe in a Deity and belong to and support the teachings of an organized religion. I cannot help but wonder, if all those people of faith really did believe and actually followed the teachings of their religion, perhaps there would be no poor, helpless, or homeless people in need.
Good points, Jim. I think you're right.
I have no hesitation in saying I believe in God. He might not have a beard and sit in a fluffy cloud, but in a Universe as big as ours, surely He exists.
While some believers show incredible compassion (think of all the church and mosque-based charities), others don't. They're hypocrites. They should consider their behaviour carefully, not just as a matter of principle, but to help themselves on Judgement Day too :)
I have no hesitation in saying I believe in God. He might not have a beard and sit in a fluffy cloud, but in a Universe as big as ours, surely He exists.
While some believers show incredible compassion (think of all the church and mosque-based charities), others don't. They're hypocrites. They should consider their behaviour carefully, not just as a matter of principle, but to help themselves on Judgement Day too :)
Jim, of course you'd bring the discussion back to religion. Churches do what they can to help people in their community, yet government has the power to help the most people, and there are many social programs in place to help the needy, disabled, and indigent. I talked to the person who cut my hair today, and her employer offers no health care or retirement plan. She's worried about that. She can't afford Obamacare. People like her need affordable insurance, and I'm willing to pay more taxes so that she can have that - but in doing so, I don't want to give up the insurance plan I have worked for and be forced to go with a government plan - which, judging by Obamacare isn't affordable or dependable. We need a better plan for those who need insurance at an affordable rate without taking away coverage that people have paid into all their lives.
Scout wrote: "Jim, of course you'd bring the discussion back to religion. Churches do what they can to help people in their community, yet government has the power to help the most people, and there are many soc..."Scout,
You have a tendency to read into a statement rather than what is actually stated. Message 132 is merely an observation based upon fact, not an attack or derisive comment directed at any religion or church organization.
In message 133 Beau, a believer, actually concurs with that statement and goes even further by warning those who do not express their faith through action of facing serious consequences on Judgement Day due to their hypocrisy.
I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou were cold or hot. So then, because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, will I spew thee out of my mouth..
Revelations 3: 15-16 - King James Version of the Christian Bible.
I'll say this for you, Jim - you're an unbeatable source of quotes :)
By the way, I was having a bit of fun re the comments on Judgement Day because it's not for me to judge.
By the way, I was having a bit of fun re the comments on Judgement Day because it's not for me to judge.
Beau wrote: "I'll say this for you, Jim - you're an unbeatable source of quotes :)By the way, I was having a bit of fun re the comments on Judgement Day because it's not for me to judge."
Beau,
Regarding my use of quotes: Whenever I read something that impresses me enough to want to remember and possibly reference it at some future date, I make a note of it so as to not inadvertently misquote the originator. By the way, some of your comments on Goodreads, even those with which I may occasionally disagree, have impressed me sufficiently to make a note of them.
Some of my best ideas come from others.
Jim wrote: "Some of my best ideas come from others...."You copy cat. All of my ideas come from myself, even the ones I steal....8^)
All of my best ideas come from the tiny man in red, on my left shoulder. He used to have a white suited twin, but I swatted that one when he denounced the evils of "Demon Liquor".
Jim wrote: "Whenever I read something that impresses me enough to want to remember and possibly reference it at some future date, I make a note of it so as to not inadvertently misquote the originator."
That sounds like a great idea, Jim. Your list is clearly very well stocked. I'm look forward to reading more of them in due course.
In the world of original quotations, one person stands out for me – Mark Twain. He came out with some really perceptive and amusing things. I should point out that apart from Huck Finn, which I couldn’t get on with, I haven’t actually read any of his books. Perhaps I should give them all a go?
I’m very flattered that you’ve made a note of some of the things I’ve posted. I didn’t think anyone was listening :) Your interest in what other group members have to say is shared by me. As I’ve mentioned before, I might border on being confrontational on a couple of the threads but most of it is with tongue firmly in cheek and I’ll always read and think about others’ posts. I am fascinated by what the active group members (obviously including yourself) have to say, and have learnt a lot from it. In fact, this group has influenced me more than all but a handful (maybe 2 handfuls) of people in real life – incredible considering I haven’t actually met any of you.
I also think it’s nice that some of you older guys, with decades of experience in certain fields, humour us enthusiastic amateurs by debating with us on equal terms and with open minds. (Ian and Papaphilly, that’s the last concession or backward step I’m taking today in our ongoing battle to discover the truth about covid. ;))
That sounds like a great idea, Jim. Your list is clearly very well stocked. I'm look forward to reading more of them in due course.
In the world of original quotations, one person stands out for me – Mark Twain. He came out with some really perceptive and amusing things. I should point out that apart from Huck Finn, which I couldn’t get on with, I haven’t actually read any of his books. Perhaps I should give them all a go?
I’m very flattered that you’ve made a note of some of the things I’ve posted. I didn’t think anyone was listening :) Your interest in what other group members have to say is shared by me. As I’ve mentioned before, I might border on being confrontational on a couple of the threads but most of it is with tongue firmly in cheek and I’ll always read and think about others’ posts. I am fascinated by what the active group members (obviously including yourself) have to say, and have learnt a lot from it. In fact, this group has influenced me more than all but a handful (maybe 2 handfuls) of people in real life – incredible considering I haven’t actually met any of you.
I also think it’s nice that some of you older guys, with decades of experience in certain fields, humour us enthusiastic amateurs by debating with us on equal terms and with open minds. (Ian and Papaphilly, that’s the last concession or backward step I’m taking today in our ongoing battle to discover the truth about covid. ;))
J. wrote: "All of my best ideas come from the tiny man in red, on my left shoulder. He used to have a white suited twin, but I swatted that one when he denounced the evils of "Demon Liquor"."Never trust the sober...
Beau wrote: "I also think it’s nice that some of you older guys, with decades of experience in certain fields, humour us enthusiastic amateurs by debating with us on equal terms and with open minds. (Ian and Papaphilly, that’s the last concession or backward step I’m taking today in our ongoing battle to discover the truth about covid. ;))..."Kid,
Just remember Ian, Phillip and I all lived longer by being smarter....
Papaphilly wrote: "Just remember Ian, Phillip and I all lived longer by being smarter...."How old is Joe Biden?
Beau wrote: "Jim wrote: "Whenever I read something that impresses me enough to want to remember and possibly reference it at some future date, I make a note of it so as to not inadvertently misquote the origina..."Beau,
Thank you for the compliments. Regarding your stated reference to Mark Twain, I offer the following:
Two of my favorite quotes from Samuel Longhorne Clemens (aka Mark Twain) 1835 - 1910
"The man who does not read has no advantage over the man who cannot read."
"If you tell the truth, you don't have to remember anything."
One of Mark Twain's many published works which I think you might find worth reading: A Connecticut Yankee in King Author's Court . It is an entertaining story, while at the same time, being a powerful satiric indictment of established social and class norms.
J. wrote: "Papaphilly wrote: "Just remember Ian, Phillip and I all lived longer by being smarter...."How old is Joe Biden?"
78
Papaphilly, I will be 50 in just over 2 years' time. Shopkeepers now call me sir instead of mate. For you to call me kid has made my day. You are now my favourite group member. I'm about to have a drink and might even get vaccinated to celebrate.
J, lol comment re Sleep Joe.
2 more excellent quotes, Jim. I'll give that book a go after the one I'm reading at the moment.
J, lol comment re Sleep Joe.
2 more excellent quotes, Jim. I'll give that book a go after the one I'm reading at the moment.
On a slightly different tack but in light of the age references, my better half and I have been having a major review of finances etc in preparation for retirement (5-7 years later than originally planned - thanks financial crash) Going through with a professional discussing likely life expectancy is a sobering process. It's all after updating wills etc. Now we are being encouraged to set up a perm power of attorney and a living will
My mentality difference is I'm not going to live for ever (Freddie Mercury - who wants to) or die before I get old, (The Who) - now I need to make sure the money doesn't run out before I do shuffle off this mortal coil.
I can't be Forever Young or old
In 1973, my late wife was not pleased with the amount of time and pressure that my job required, although the monetary and benefit compensation were more than adequate. She insisted that we acquire the services of a financial planner with the goal being able to eventually enjoy an early and comfortable retirement. After establishing a budgeting and investment strategy, the planner, who is still my advisor, guaranteed that, if we never deviated from the agreed to plan, I would be able to begin a comfortable retirement by age 55. I was actually able to retire in 2001 at age 54. I have been enjoying that retirement for 20 years and counting.
At age 74, some parts are starting to wear out and occasionally cause physical discomfort. The best thing about the good old days is that I wasn't good and wasn't old. I personally believe that the insistence by many my age that the majority of the world's population was much better off decades ago than currently is due to memory loss.
I think the trick is to invest wisely and try to preserve capital in retirement, since you have no idea how long you will live. There is one philosophy that you spend the lot up- to the day you die, but unfortunately you have no idea when that will be, and my experience is there will always be unpredictable events. If you have enough stored up, these events are not a worry. Good luck, Philip.
Depending upon one's personal philosophy and beliefs, attitudes regarding existence and planning for post-retirement years vary greatly. Whose to say if one is right or the other is wrong. My personal belief is that medical science is sometimes keeping humans existing longer than nature intended. My personal care physician, whom I respect and must visit annually in order to be eligible for prescription medications, always reminds me that I do not do many things I should be doing and do too many things I should not be doing. However, in view of my personal life philosophy, he has promised to never pressure or chastise me in return for my promise never to talk to or interact with any of his other patients.
Philip, great music references (I love The Who) and best of luck with your retirement planning. The most important thing is not to stress about it because stress is the biggest killer. If the numbers don’t add up, just get a nice little part-time job collecting the supermarket trolleys – it’s what I plan to do, although knowing my luck AI will be doing it by then :(
Jim, your thoughts on getting old brought a smile to my face. 54 is very young to retire. I’ve seen first-hand that it doesn’t always do people good to leave work that young but you appear to be thriving and living life to the max. I agree with you that it’s easy to view life through rose-tinted spectacles when you get older. I’m sometimes guilty of it myself, but know you’re right.
By the way, I’ve just bought a kindle bundle of 11 Mark Twain novels for a bargain £1.49. I’ll start 'A Connecticut Yankee in King Author's Court' tonight.
Jim, your thoughts on getting old brought a smile to my face. 54 is very young to retire. I’ve seen first-hand that it doesn’t always do people good to leave work that young but you appear to be thriving and living life to the max. I agree with you that it’s easy to view life through rose-tinted spectacles when you get older. I’m sometimes guilty of it myself, but know you’re right.
By the way, I’ve just bought a kindle bundle of 11 Mark Twain novels for a bargain £1.49. I’ll start 'A Connecticut Yankee in King Author's Court' tonight.
Beau wrote: "Philip, great music references (I love The Who) and best of luck with your retirement planning. The most important thing is not to stress about it because stress is the biggest killer. If the numbe..."Beau,
I agee with you that early retirement is not for everyone. If you have insufficient interests, hobbies, or social activities to keep busy and you actually like and enjoy your job, working for as long as possible may actually be a great choice.
I have 4 adult children, 5 grandchildren, and 3 sons-in-law whom I often see. I have always enjoyed road trips. After retiring in 2001, my late wife and I visited 39 of the United States together and I have visited 6 more since. One or more of my children and/or grandchildren are always anxious to come along for the ride; although I have a suspicion that another reason may be to keep an eye on me. Regardless of the reason, they get a free vacation out of it.
So, at least in my particular case, early retirement was ideal and I have never regretted my choice. However, as you state in your comment, it certainly is not for everyone.
I anxiously look forward to finding out if you enjoyed the Mark Twian works you purchased.
The whole point of life, in my opinion, is to maximise your personal enjoyment so if you are thinking of retirement, which would you enjoy more: working or retirement, bearing in mind enjoyment requires resources. Go with what will bring you the most out of the rest of your life.
Ian wrote: "The whole point of life, in my opinion, is to maximise your personal enjoyment so if you are thinking of retirement, which would you enjoy more: working or retirement, bearing in mind enjoyment req..."Hedonistic as it is, yet sounds about right
I'd say that what we currently have in the US is similar. People who have jobs that provide health care get better and faster treatment. Those without insurance get free treatment due to indigent health care programs. They're not turned away, but they're not first in line. Money talks in both systems.