2016 - December - Buddy Read - The Fleet at Flood Tide

[Sweetwilliam]

For me, the other key take away from this book is the motivation behind the IJA soldiers urging civilians to take their own lives rather than surrender to the Marines. In Toll’s, The Conquering Tide, the reader learns that civilians are lied to by the IJ soldiers about the atrocities that the American’s would commit upon conquering and therefore the civilians, like the soldiers, should conform to the same “Smashed Jewels” policy of the military. Hornfishcer provides a little more insight into why the Japanese soldiers made up these lies. Because they weren’t actually lies. An Okinawan that somehow survived the “gyokusai” on page 407 tells her story.

"The villagers received an education in not disgracing themselves as Japanese….And what were they told would happen if they were caught by American soldiers? The veterans, those who’d been in China, taught the villagers what would happen if they had been captured. They used things like the Nanking massacre as an example. . ‘Japanese did things like this,’ they’d say. ‘The Americans naturally will do the same things.” It’s better to kill your children first and die by your own hands than be shamed and abused, disgraced and raped."

So in a sense, the Japanese soldiers weren’t lying or trying to trick the civilians into committing suicide. They were just telling them honestly what they did when they were the conquerors. Why would the Americans be any different? Note to self…Do not go into battle wearing a wristband with the initials WWHD. What Would Hirohito Do?

[zed]

I would add this to the discussion.

Japan's Longest Day

['Aussie Rick', Moderator]

Here is a book that I read back in 1986 that added a British perspective to the issue of using the Atomic bombs to end the Pacific War:

Miracle Of Deliverance: The Case For The Bombing Of Hiroshima And Nagasaki by Stephen Harper

[Colin]

regarding the atomic bombs, I knew and spoke with the two men who dropped them, Paul Tibbets and Charles Sweeney, as well as the general who commanded them, Curtis Lemay and Dr, Zumwalt (brother of Adm Elmo) who worked on the Manhattan Project. There was no way Truman was not going to drop the bombs for two reasons; the cost of invasion, and to send a message to the Soviets; we have the bomb.

[happy]

I'm really like this so far! A couple of things I didn't know - Spurance's jaunt on the New Jersey to sink a light cruiser and other ships escaping from Truk during the first carrier raids, and the air crew basically be told leave them alone and don't spoil the Admiral fun.

The story of the creating of the UDTs and there first commander was also fascinating. In spite of having an admiral for a father he couldn't get into Annapolis because of his poor eyesight. He then volunteered as an ambulance driver for the British in France. He then went on to do bomb disposal during the Blitz. Finally the USN realized they need someone of his expertice and asked the Brits to let them have him.

It is definitely up to the standards of his previous books.

['Aussie Rick', Moderator]

In regards to the UDTs you may find this book of interest:

First SEALs: The Untold Story of the Forging of America's Most Elite Unit by Patrick K. O'Donnell

[Sweetwilliam]

One more anecdote from the book that bothered me. On page 477 and 478, Just after the cessation of hostilities and during the occupation of Japan, Spruance and MacArthur met with the mayor of Yokosuka to discuss the issue of prostitution. It seems that the Japanese and MacArthur had no problem with it. They had the local police set up “comfort facilities” in order to contain the urges of the occupiers and reduce the risk of rape. Many of the woman who entered this line of work had lost their homes in the firebombing and saw this as a way to provide for their families and some saw this as a rebuke of the old system. The US servicemen called the brothel the Willow Run after the Ford aircraft production facility in Michigan.

Through interpreters, A US Doctor counseled the girls on the use of contraceptives and how to use them and how to risk disease, etc. “ Everything was working according to plan…the rate of venereal infection was low, reports of drunkenness and rape at a minimum, the shore patrol having no difficulty and the men were happy.” That is until a chaplain complained to his congressmen that the US Navy was sanctioning prostitution. Admiral King shut down two houses of prostitution. “The house closed, crime and VD climbed and that was that.”

So, the US Navy rationalizes for the use of Napalm and the atomic bombs and men, women, and children are killed by the hundreds of thousands and of course, the government is OK with this. The government sets up a house of prostitution that makes all parties involved happy and crime and VD rates go down and the government shuts it down.

This is the kind of PC stupidness that really frustrates me.

[Colin]

Admiral Ernest J. King was an arrogant ass, but he was effective as well as vindictive. regarding the use of napalm, the Germans first used in in Spain in 1937, although a crude form. The atomic bombs were dropped as a result of the Japanese refusing to surrender, so after Bataan and other atrocities, quid pro quo. They had their chance. I even spoke with many Japanese veterans who had no problem with the bombs being dropped. Continued attacks and fire bombings would have killed many more than the two bombs. The Lemay application of firebombing killed three times as many as the two atomic bombs combined, so in effect they saved lives.

[Sweetwilliam]

For the record Colin, I have no problem with either the use of napalm or the use of the atomic bomb. In fact, the most important aspect of this book for me was the data that Hornfischer presented that justified the bomb's use. My last comment was about the pettiness of King in regards to prostitution.

It reminds me of the following: We can send an 18-20 year old over to Afghanistan where he may have a limb blown off but God forbid he (or she) drinks a bottle of beer when stateside. To me this is stupidness perpetrated on us by the Nanny State run by North American Do-Gooder. The most evil of all evils.

[Colin]

Understood, I had the same experience in the 1980s with men in Africa and Asia, as well as my oldest being a young Marine in Afghanistan for two tours.

[Sweetwilliam]

It looks like Rick, Happy and I are the only ones to actually read it. I loved the book. I hope Hornfischer keeps writing. Here is my review:

https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...

My focus is the justification for the use of the atom bomb. This is important stuff. I had more about the land and sea campaign but it ended up on the editors floor as so to speak. You can read my thoughts in the thread.

['Aussie Rick', Moderator]

Excellent review Sweetwilliam, thanks for sharing your thoughts with the group. I am sure it will prompt a few members to grab a copy of the book and read it as well.

[Dj]

Sweetwilliam wrote: "It looks like Rick, Happy and I are the only ones to actually read it. I loved the book. I hope Hornfischer keeps writing. Here is my review:

https://www.goodreads.com/review/show......"

Nice review. Will have to take a look at the book one of these days. LOL

[Sweetwilliam]

Dj wrote: "Sweetwilliam wrote: "It looks like Rick, Happy and I are the only ones to actually read it. I loved the book. I hope Hornfischer keeps writing. Here is my review:

https://www.goodreads.com/review/..."

Thanks DJ. I really like the way this guy writes WWII history. You will too.

[Dj]

Sweetwilliam wrote: "Dj wrote: "Sweetwilliam wrote: "It looks like Rick, Happy and I are the only ones to actually read it. I loved the book. I hope Hornfischer keeps writing. Here is my review:

https://www.goodreads...."

I saw the book today when I went to Powell's, but it is still a tad outside my price range. Have to wait a bit I guess. But I do want to take a look at it.

[Betsy]

I had the same budget problem so I recently got the book from the library. It has some good sections, but I prefer THE LAST STAND OF THE TIN CAN SAILORS.

[Sweetwilliam]

Hey Betsy, I loved Last Stand. Have you tried Neptune'Neptune's Inferno: The U.S. Navy at Guadalcanals Inferno yet? I had chills down my spine when I read about capital ships firing broadsides into each other at 350 yards.

I swear to God I am not related to this guy. I just find Hornfischer's books to be very interesting. There is supposed to be a lull in history books and with Hornfischer there rarely is.

[Betsy]

I haven't read NEPTUNE'S INFERNO, but I have read many fine books about the battles, including those by Hamel, Hoyt, Frank and Tregaskis.

[happy]

for anyone interested, Mr. Hornfischer was on BookTV this past weekend talking about fleet...

The program was taped last November

https://www.c-span.org/video/?417270-...

[Sweetwilliam]

Thanks Happy. I enjoyed that.