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2016 - December - Buddy Read - The Fleet at Flood Tide
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'Aussie Rick', Moderator
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Dec 10, 2016 12:43PM
That was a great account indeed, not too many stories about massed Japanese tank attacks in the Pacific. Pretty gutsy defence by the Marines as well, I think some of the bazooka teams took out up to seven tanks apiece?
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I agree Rick and I am traveling and using that darn I-Phone 5 or I would have written more. I am used to reading Hornfischer's accounts of Naval battles but thus far, he is doing a fine job describing the land campaign. I had. It heard of Marines jamming the treads of Japanese tanks and using grenades down the turrets.One interesting comment by Howlin Mad Smith as to why the Marines took objectives so fast compared to the Army. They were afraid the Navy would abandon them as they did for a few days at Guadalcanal for a few days. Spruance had maneuvered task force 58 and nearly all the fire support ships to await the IJN and from the Marines on the island it looked like they were about to be abandoned again.
Its good that Spruance did not let himself be drawn away from the beaches but stuck with the Marines, although he many detractors for his actions the results have spoken for themselves in the history books.Admiral Spruance:
http://www.historynet.com/admiral-ray...
Reminds me that a few months ago I purchased a nice second hand copy of this book on the man:
The Quiet Warrior: A Biography of Admiral Raymond A. Spruance bybThomas B. Buell
I liked this account of Raymond Spruance, he sounds like the perfect officer:"Physical bravery was seldom required of admirals, but the physician considered Spruance 'a true Spartan in every sense. In combat he was calmly brave and heroic, thus easing those about him into some degree of fortitude and comfort ... His composure was inspiring. I thought of Forrestal and his reference to nelson. I felt great pride, great comfort, and assurance that the Fifth Fleet under Spruance was unbeatable, that Okinawa and Japan must fall as had Germany, that this tragic was could be won'."
If you were a soldier in a unit scheduled in for the invasion of Japan this information would have worried you for sure:"No campaign prior to Okinawa could reasonably reflect what now lay ahead. And so planners no longer spoke of the Saipan ratio. U.S. losses at Okinawa foretold a far higher cost in Operations Olympic and Coronet. MacArthur's staff, reckoning with the alarming Japanese buildup, began to revise their estimates based not on the Saipan ratio, which was suggesting a half million dead, but on a new metric, the 'sinister ratio'. Derived from the experience of Okinawa, it revised the forecast of one American soldier killed in action for every seven defenders in place to one for every two."
The Saipan ratio:
http://www.last.fm/music/Saipan+Ratio...
'Aussie Rick' wrote: "I liked this account of Raymond Spruance, he sounds like the perfect officer:"Physical bravery was seldom required of admirals, but the physician considered Spruance 'a true Spartan in every sens..."
This is a good description of Spruance. He didn't need flamboyance to do the job.
'Aussie Rick' wrote: "Its good that Spruance did not let himself be drawn away from the beaches but stuck with the Marines, although he many detractors for his actions the results have spoken for themselves in the histo..."Last year, I almost picked up a book written by John B. Lundstrom called Black Shoe Carrier about Admiral Fletcher. I passed on it because I had just read Lundstrom's First Team Part I and II and The South Pacific Campaign.
Apparently Naval Aviators wore brown shoes. Fletcher was not an aviator and wore black shoes.
Sweetwilliam wrote: "'Aussie Rick' wrote: "Its good that Spruance did not let himself be drawn away from the beaches but stuck with the Marines, although he many detractors for his actions the results have spoken for t..."The distinction is made still. Naval aviators may wear brown shoes with certain uniforms. Ship's officers never wear brown shoes. Here they are:
http://www.public.navy.mil/bupers-npc...
Notice under optional items:
http://www.public.navy.mil/bupers-npc...
Thanks for those links MR9, interesting.
A little more about the history of brown shoes for aviators:http://thebrownshoes.org/whence-term-...
It seems that the USN surface fleet preferred black shoes because it hid the coal soot of the coal burning ships at the turn of the last century. Naval aviation started May 8th of 1911 when a Wright Bros. flying machine was ordered. Apparently, the pioneer aviators were working on brown dirt fields and they were constantly getting chewed out by their officers for having brown dirt on their black shoes. So some young officers thought the best solution was to petition the USN to adopt a new uniform with brown high top shoes and brown leggings.
"On 13 November 1913, the Navy Bureau signed approval to the uniform regulations to include The Shoes of Brown with Brown high top leggings as part of the permanent uniform for Naval Aerial Aviators."
Follow the link to the Brown Shoes Project. It is about preserving the history of the deeds of Naval aviators.
I just read about the Marianas Turkey Shoot. According to the author, all the other carrier battles were won by the side who was able to launch the first strike. The battle of the Philippine Sea was different in that the Japanese had found the American Carriers first and they were able to launch a massive first strike before the Americans knew of their position. It seems to me that there were lots of firsts here. USN Submarine force had came of age and US submarines were able to take out two carriers.
I am trying to determine if it was the F6F Hellcat that made the biggest difference or was it the the superior aviation skills of the US Naval Aviators vs the IJN aviators at that point in the war. I believe that the bulk Japan's best pilots were dead by then. Had they been alive would they have been able to compete with the Hellcat? It also seems that there were several improvements in radar controlled anti-aircraft.
Whatever the reason, the Japanese were doomed. Hence the Turkey Shoot.
Sweetwilliam wrote: "A little more about the history of brown shoes for aviators:http://thebrownshoes.org/whence-term-...
It seems that the USN surface fleet preferred black shoes because it hid the coal soot..."
The brown shoes were required with the old Aviation Greens. That uniform was in, then out, then in again until 2011. Now it's out. Here are photos of Aviation Greens with brown shoes (of course):
https://d26horl2n8pviu.cloudfront.net...
http://netnumber-1.com/number_one/hp0...
Sweetwilliam wrote: Last year, I almost picked up a book written by John B. Lundstrom called Black Shoe Carrier about Admiral Fletcher.."
You should go back for this one, IMO. It provides a little bit more balance to the South Pacific carrier battles. Late-war aviators (brown-shoe officers) and Marines speaking to S.E.Morison were able to influence the writing of history against Fletcher.
Sweetwilliam wrote: "One interesting comment by Howlin Mad Smith as to why the Marines took objectives so fast compared to the Army. They were afraid the Navy would abandon them as they did {after} a few days at Guadalcanal."IIRC, the Army's 27th Division didn't get all of its units ashore, notably artillery, before the transports pulled back, and that certainly slowed them down. It's been a few years since I read
, but I think that was in there.Having said that, it's my understanding that Marine doctrine emphasized rapid advances ashore, to relieve the fleet of standing offshore where it might be chained down when or if the Japanese fleet counter-attacked.
Lee wrote: "Sweetwilliam wrote: Last year, I almost picked up a book written by John B. Lundstrom called Black Shoe Carrier about Admiral Fletcher.."
You should go back for this one, IMO. It provides a littl..."
Yes, I will. Lundstrom made it clear in the First Team that Fletcher got a bit of a bad rap at Gudalcanal.
Sweetwilliam wrote: "I just read about the Marianas Turkey Shoot. According to the author, all the other carrier battles were won by the side who was able to launch the first strike. The battle of the Philippine Sea wa..."I think it was a combination of all those things Sweetwilliam, the Japanese had lost too many experienced pilots by that stage of the war. The American forces had new and better aircraft along with better tactics and training and I think the numbers were being to tell.
The author mentioned the heroic actions of the USS Laffey during its time on picket duty off Okinawa during the battle there. I read a great book on this ship that was first published in 1980; The Ship that would not Die by Julian Becton. 
The Ship That Would Not Die by Julian BectonI'm thinking I may have to get a copy of this newer book and read the story again:
Hell from the Heavens: The Epic Story of the USS Laffey and World War II's Greatest Kamikaze Attack by John Wukovits
Lee wrote: "Sweetwilliam wrote: "One interesting comment by Howlin Mad Smith as to why the Marines took objectives so fast compared to the Army. They were afraid the Navy would abandon them as they did {after}..."Yes, Ian Tool in the Conquering Tide mentioned this. He presented a case in which the Army was taking their time and a fire support ship (I think a cruiser) was sunk off the coast of the island the Army was taking. Meanwhile on a neighboring island the Marines had already wrapped up operations against greater resistance. They took more casualties for sure but the fleet covering the Marines had far less exposure due to their speed. Can anyone help with Ian Toll's example of this from the Conquering Tide? Which Island was Ian Toll talking about and which ship was sunk? I gave my brother the book or I would look it up myself.
I found this information in regards to clearing the sea mines around Japanese waters at the end of WW2 quite interesting and must confess to not having heard/read about it before:"To ensure safe passage through the waters that had only recently been mine-swept, Spruance had the idea of using 'guinea pig' vessels. A brave band of sailors stepped forward to man these battle-damaged Liberty and Victory ships. Ballasted with drums of asphalt to absorb underwater blasts and reinforced below the waterline with internal bracing and plates, the guinea pigs were operated by remote control from upper decks, their skeleton crews wearing crash helmets and life jackets and further protected from blast by mattresses fastened to decks, overheads, and bulkheads. No ships from these 'special sweep squadrons' were lost, but their use provided comfort to the vessels that followed."
'Aussie Rick' wrote: "I found this information in regards to clearing the sea mines around Japanese waters at the end of WW2 quite interesting and must confess to not having heard/read about it before:"To ensure safe ..."
That's new to me too, AR.
Not too sure if I'd volunteer for such a ship :)
I found this information quite interesting as well, in regards to the final Japanese surrender:" ... AS CINCPAC wrote, 'The Japanese Army as such had ceased to exist. This marked the culmination of one of the greatest mass surrenders in history, involving the laying down of their arms by some seven million Japanese troops, including those in outlying theaters of the Pacific and Indian oceans, within a period of only six weeks'."
Last bit of interesting information from the book:"By the end of 1946, the U.S. Navy had completed the mass repatriation of Japanese from the Pacific Ocean Areas, about 5.1 million souls in all. Some 1.3 million more, however, remained in Soviet custody. MacArthur would respond in fury when Stalin indicated he would renege on promises to send all of them home. The Soviets would finally hold 469,000 Japanese as slave laborers. The commissars favoured keeping the young, for they tended to be more receptive to political indoctrination."
Sweetwilliam wrote: "Lee wrote: "Sweetwilliam wrote: "One interesting comment by Howlin Mad Smith as to why the Marines took objectives so fast compared to the Army. They were afraid the Navy would abandon them as they..."During the Gilbert campaign, a jeep carrier, the Liscome Bay CVE 56 was operating as part of task force 50.2 operating 20 miles SE of Makin . She took a torpedo from an IJN submarine and went down taking 687 sailors of her crew with her.
Toll wrote "If Raph Smith's [Army] troops had moved faster to overrun Makin, perhaps the fleet could have withdrawn a day or two earlier sparing the Liscome Bay of her fate."
Toll went on to say that "Taking the number of casualties from all services into account, the Marine Corps doctrine of aggressive offense was to be preferred to the army's stolid pace. Nimitz later concluded, ' Nowhere in the Navy's insistence upon speed in amphibious assault been more sharply vindicated.' "
Good post Sweetwilliam!
Sweetwilliam wrote: "Sweetwilliam wrote: "Lee wrote: "Sweetwilliam wrote: "One interesting comment by Howlin Mad Smith as to why the Marines took objectives so fast compared to the Army. They were afraid the Navy would..."Sweetwilliam: ASW in a forward region is an operation of ebbing probabilities. Eventually the subs will find a target. They can be kept at bay only so long without a significant commitment of ground-based aircraft. An old Navy saying: "Big ocean, little sub."
'Aussie Rick' wrote: "Not too sure if I'd volunteer for such a ship :)"If the ships were piloted remotely, what was the crew for?
Dj wrote: "'Aussie Rick' wrote: "Not too sure if I'd volunteer for such a ship :)"If the ships were piloted remotely, what was the crew for?"
It takes a lot more than steering to operate a steamship.
Manray9 wrote: "Dj wrote: "'Aussie Rick' wrote: "Not too sure if I'd volunteer for such a ship :)"If the ships were piloted remotely, what was the crew for?"
It takes a lot more than steering to operate a steam..."
Steam? I didn't think that the Liberty ships were steam ships. Of course even with fuel oil the comment would still hold true. Wasn't thinking of the Engineering aspects of the case. Thanks
Dj wrote: "Manray9 wrote: "Dj wrote: "'Aussie Rick' wrote: "Not too sure if I'd volunteer for such a ship :)"If the ships were piloted remotely, what was the crew for?"
It takes a lot more than steering to..."
Liberty ships used oil-fired boilers for triple-expansion steam engines. Some of the later versions, the so-called Victory ships, used diesel or reciprocating steam engines. Even in recent years, aboard ships with gas-turbine engines, the verb "to steam" is sometimes used.
Manray9 wrote: "Dj wrote: "Manray9 wrote: "Dj wrote: "'Aussie Rick' wrote: "Not too sure if I'd volunteer for such a ship :)"If the ships were piloted remotely, what was the crew for?"
It takes a lot more than ..."
Ahh, there you go. learn something new every day. Thanks.
Mrs Happy brought this home for me today - I have one book ahead of it in the que, so I'll probably start on it about Christmas.
I'll look forward to your comments Happy. I think it has been one of the better books that I have read on the final year of the war in the Pacific and certainly goes some way in explaining the decision to drop the Atomic bombs on Japan.
Great gift idea Mrs Happy! Spoiler alert: The US wins!The last line of Saitos last order was "I will advance with those who remain to deliver still another blow to the American devils, and leave my bones on Saipan if that is how it mush be."
Then after this Saito and Admiral Nagumo and two other top military officials sat down to a ceremonial meal with liberal portions of saki. White sheets were laid out and all 4 kneeled.
"As one, the four men shouted 'Tenno Heika, banzai' - May his heavenly Majesty live ten thousand years! - and spitted themselves through the midsection. The junior officers then raised their pistols and fired single shots into their heads. They fell over, legs jerking, and it was done."
Saito was not going to lead his men after all.
Now the civilians with soldier mixed in are committing suicide en masse at Marpi Point. "A staffer at Collie's wrote, "It was ghastly business; but beyond that, what significance did it have for our war in the Pacific? One guess is that it means the entire Japanese nation with only a handful of exceptions, will choose to die rather than surrender; that we shall have to virtually exterminate the Japs before we can consider them really defeated."
He goes on to say "Another guess is that these civilian suicides were propaganda to make the extermination theory seem sound-that these civilians-killed themselves on instructions from military rulers in the hopes of persuading the white man that the conquest of Japan will entail horrors which he, with his ingrained compassion and sportsmanship, cannot stomach to the end."
I had seen in documentaries and read in previous books that Saipan was the first time the west had observed what civilians would do when confronted by US and Allied forces. The population of mainland Japan was ~ 73MM people. Can you imagine the horror of conquering the mainland? This makes a few atom bombs seem humane in comparison.
23,000 Japanese were killed by US forces on Saipan. 3,400 US servicemen were lost in the process. This is the 2nd book that I have read about the Pacific that describes the frustration by front line infantry that had the additional responsibility of burying the Japanese corpses that they created. Hornfischer describes a front line Marine unit that was so sick and tired of burying Japanese that they let some pass to the rear. I can't imagine this happening. After they allowed this to happen BTN worked out an arrangement to bear some of the burden. I believe it was in With The Old Breed that I remember the front line rifle platoons were also sick and tired of having to bury all the corpses. Sledge thought that the rear echelon troops should help. However, in this book, they never intentionally let Japs walk through their lines as Hornfischer claims that this particular unit did on Saipan. There was a humorous story where an infiltrator did sneak by Sledgehammer and a buddy and was killed at Company HQ and the GSGT blamed a member of Sledge's mortar section and accused them of not wanting to have to bury the corpse. Seldge's buddy - who did not intentionally allow the soldier to pass - argued back to the affect that that is what is going to happen if we have to bury all the dead.
During chapter 25 entitled "Regime Change" there is a discussion about how Japan is now convinced that the war cannot be won. Tojo was not keeping Hirohito informed. "When Saipan fell Tojo's wife began receiving anonymous phone calls asking whether her husband had killed himself yet." An Admiral was planning a machine gun ambush and a major was planning to throw a hydrocyanic gas bomb in Tojo's car. Tojo resigns and he is replaced by a retired Army General who was the Governor-general of Korea. "The ascent of this Mandarin [Kunaiaki Kosio] all but ensured continuation of a dysfunctional war policy that was driven with a certain fervor to ignore what all knew to be the case: Japan was beaten; to resist further was hopeless." Prince Takamatsu, an IJN Captain, urged to seek termination of hostilities without delay with the only condition that the imperial house was left intact. Which is what would be the outcome anyway.
At the end of Chapter 25 we are introduced to Napalm. On the second day of the Guam landings we learn that a Lieutenant Commander Louis Man arrived in Saipan to exhibit a movie reel of a P-51 dropping a firebomb on a test range.
"The canister carried a hellish brew. It was a mixture of a jelly compound used to waterproof vehicles and hundred-octane aviation fuel. Released in 165-gallon external fuel tanks at low altitudes, the gelatinous compound ignited and flowed like a lethal plasma over everything in its path, burning dugouts and foxholes and whatever lay within."
Days later, the 318th Army Fighter Group were using P-47s to drop this on Tinian.
"a burst of flame rose a hundred feet or more into the air, and then the flame just seemed to flow hundred feet or more along the ground"
"Measurements afterward showed that the payload had burned out a strip a hundred yards long and more than thirty yards wide, nearly the size of a football field. The results were far better than anything that white phosphorus ordinance could do."
Henry Hill recommended that a little brown tar pitch be added to enhance the volume of noxious smoke so that it would suffocate the enemy. Hill thought that death by Napalm was probably an easier way to go than shrapnel to the gut. Hill rationalized "War brings death, and many of the so-called horrible forms of death are really the quickest and easiest....when you fight Japs you either kill him or he kills you. I don't think you can be too particular about the means of destroying your enemy."
Thus, Napalm was rationalized for.
As I read Hornfischer, I am making my way through the Last Lion by Manchester. It is interesting to think that when WWII started in Europe and while the Germans attack Poland, Chamberlain refused to bomb Germany with anything more lethal than "truth leaflets" to convince the Germans to overthrow Hitler. It is something to think that the war started with truth leaflets and ended with atom bombs.
Sweetwilliam wrote: "23,000 Japanese were killed by US forces on Saipan. 3,400 US servicemen were lost in the process. This is the 2nd book that I have read about the Pacific that describes the frustration by front lin..."Ahhhhh, I found it. page 273 of my addition. [LtCol Wood B Kyle] was walking [the BTN] perimeter one night when he smelled the sweet stench of human decay....he determined it was coming from a deep ravine."
He realized that B Company "had been shooting the infiltrators and tossing them into the ditch." This annoyed Kyle and he informed the Company Commander Maxie Williams that it was his job to bury all the bodies. "It was a matter of hygiene, morale, and the law of war" B Company didn't think it was fair that they should have to bury them and Kyle said that there weren't service troops available. They argued and Lt Col Kyle ordered Williams to take care of it because Marines in combat were supposed to bury those they shot in their sector.
"But there was another rule. The other rule said you couldn't shoot your rifle inside your own perimeter. So William's adjusted his approach. When Japanese ambled through , the Marines kept quiet, platoon by platoon, and did not fire."
This rule allowed William's Company of Marines to save their shoulders a bout with the spade and spare their ammunition, and keep them from having to smell the corpses.
Kyle figured it out and worked out a deal. William's company would shoot the infiltrators but but grave-digging duty would rotate daily among all the companies.
How battle hardened do you have to be before you would let an enemy cross through your lines because you were sick and tired of burying stinking corpses?
Started this one today - so far so good.
Glad to see that you are enjoying it. I am on page 413. The focus of Part three of the book (entitled "Air") is the strategic air campaign on Japan using the Marianas as a base. This starts around page 347.
I take it you are still finding it a fascinating account Sweetwilliam?
Yes, I am almost done (page 475 now). I was a little disappointed that the author didn't describe the battle for Guam. However, after reading about the strategic campaign, I understand why he didn't dwell on this. I have argued for the necessity of dropping the bomb over Japan and that the atomic bomb ended the war without the necessity of invading mainland Japan. I remember that someone rebutted my argument by stating that the Japanese sent emissaries to the Soviet Union and that they were ready to surrender. Thanks to this book I have something to refute his argument with. On page 424 Japan contacted the Soviet Ambassador on July 13th. Japan desired to send Hirohito's brother to the Kremlin with a letter from the Emperor seeking to end the war. The problem is, the Japanese were not willing to surrender unconditionally. They wanted Hirohito left in power and they did not want any armies of occupation. There is no way that the US and Great Britain were going to accept this.
On pages 450-453, after the bombs were dropped, Hornfischer discusses Hirohito's decision to surrender. According to Hornfischer, Hirohito told Togo, "Now that a weapon of this devastating power has been used against us, we should not let slip the opportunity....Tell Prime Minister Suzuki that it is my wish that the war be ended as soon as possible on the basis of the Potsdam Declaration."
The two atomic bombs persuaded the Hirohito to overrule the "dead-enders" in the cabinet that wanted to fight it out. Japan still had the means to defend Japan and make the conquering of mainland a gruesome task.
I think Hornfischer provides a very telling case for the use of the two Atomic bombs, as bad as they were the alternatives were worse, for all sides. I found the book to be very well written and presented, no apparent bias and easy to read. Its a book that I would recommend to anyone interested in the final stages of the Pacific campaign.
'Aussie Rick' wrote: "I think Hornfischer provides a very telling case for the use of the two Atomic bombs, as bad as they were the alternatives were worse, for all sides. I found the book to be very well written and pr..."Yes, I much prefer reading about the naval and land campaigns and the first hand accounts of bravery but this was the major take away for me. I loved the book and I think it deserves the 5 stars I plan to rate it.
I love some of the anecdotes about the bravery and fanaticism of the Japanese fighting man. How about the US Army General officer on Tinian who was about to be strafed by Jap Zero while the General was driving in a jeep? The General stopped the jeep and dove underneath it for protection. The Japanese aviator actually landed the plane and taxied up to the General who was sheltered under his jeep. The aviator pulled his sidearm and ran up to the side of the jeep before he was taken down by a barrage of rifle fire.
Isn't that something the Japanese high command counted on--the moral superiority of its troops as well as a perseverance to duty just as the French counted on 'elan' against machine guns in WWI?
I think one of the best accounts/analysis of the end of the war and the use of the"bomb" is Downfall: The End of the Imperial Japanese Empire by Richard B. Frank. Same conclusion as Hornfischer; more in-depth analysis.
Betsy wrote: "Isn't that something the Japanese high command counted on--the moral superiority of its troops as well as a perseverance to duty just as the French counted on 'elan' against machine guns in WWI?"I don't know Betsy. They probably did. Look at Guadalcanal and Colonel Ichiki and the Battle of the Teneru. Colonel Ichiki attacked with only half his forces. Was it elan/bushido or maybe it was hubris and a little racism? Call it what you want but the IJ looked down their noses at the USMC and Army forces. I think it was a bit like Elan. The difference between the Japanese and the French is that the former were actually willing to fight. I am reading Manchester's trilogy on Churchill and the bulk of the French Army had very little will to fight. The Japanese were willing to fight to the last man. I think the Japanese had the elan...or bushido. It just didn't make a difference. Like charging machine gun nests in the great war with exposed infantry. All the elan in the world didn't make a difference.
Chad wrote: "I think one of the best accounts/analysis of the end of the war and the use of the"bomb" is Downfall: The End of the Imperial Japanese Empire by Richard B. Frank. Same con..."Frank's book on Guadalcanal deserves a reread. I will check out Downfall. Thanks!
THE WORLD WAR TWO GROUP
Books mentioned in this topic
Neptune's Inferno: The U.S. Navy at Guadalcanal (other topics)First SEALs: The Untold Story of the Forging of America's Most Elite Unit (other topics)
Miracle of Deliverance (other topics)
Japan's Longest Day (other topics)
The Conquering Tide: War in the Pacific Islands, 1942–1944 (other topics)
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Authors mentioned in this topic
Patrick K. O'Donnell (other topics)Stephen Harper (other topics)
Richard B. Frank (other topics)
Richard B. Frank (other topics)
Julian Becton (other topics)
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