WE ARE OPEN - WEEK FOUR - MILITARY SERIES: HANNS AND RUDOLF - June 2nd - June 8th - Chapter(s) Six and Seven: 6: Hanns, Berlin, Germany, 1933 and 7: Rudolf, Oswiecim, Upper Silesia, 1939 - (72 - 116) - No Spoilers, Please

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Yes Lewis another way to look at the situation in Germany.

[Sherry]

Harry wrote: "Sherry, When the SS were rounding up the Jews to be shipped to the great death camps they were told they were being relocated to the east. It was also the coded language between SS and on official ..."
Thanks, I didn't know that. Of course, more to keep the public unaware.
Sherry

[Sherry]

Harry, your comment also reminds me of a book I read recently,The Yiddish Policemen's Union Michael Chabon Where Chabon fantasizes a Jewish relocation outpost in Alaska. A great book, I highly recommend it.

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Yes it is a great book but Sherry - could you place all of your recommendations in the Bibliography thread. Thanks.

Also, check out the thread on citations:

The Yiddish Policemen's Union

by Michael Chabon

[Sarah]

I agree with Lewis, I can't even begin to imagine how hard it would be to leave everything you have ever known. And unfortunately even today I could possibly see how citizens could get caught up in the propaganda since spreading fear seems to be so much easier than actually learning the facts.

[Lewis]

Back to chapter 7 again...
On page 99, Rudolf seems to conclude, based on some interactions with people, that all people were basically bad. That seems to be a belief that he chose to accept...a particularly ominous conclusion, given where he was working and the work environment conveyed by his superiors and by the regime in general. In combination with that, at the bottom of page 100, Rudolf seems to be portrayed as an individual lacking in confidence and needing the approval of his superiors/authority figures...something he never received from his father... Altogether, a pretty potent and lethal cocktail that he was able to carry to fruition with a real measure of confident support and satisfaction. What a scary scenario...

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Rudolf is a scary guy Lewis - but I think he scares himself too. He seemed to be searching for something to give himself some validity.

[Lewis]

Pages 104 and 105 confirm Rudolf's belief that the inmates in particular were bad/useless people. He and his wife were quite happy to mooch off the possessions of the inmates, no doubt being confident that the prisoners were not worthy to keep what they owned anyway. When talking with his wife's brother a little later, Rudolf casually and seriously mentions that the inmates are obviously less than human, as if it is as apparent as it is when we look at a dog or a chicken. What other rationalization does one need for eradicating this scum from the earth (his thinking, not mine!)?

[Lewis]

A little later, we get these glimpses of Rudolf and his work: as the "most cold-blooded animal we ever met" (page 107); the euthanasia program that was brutal but calmly carried out (page 111); his rationalization that Himmler's orders were at the same time monstrous and right (page 114); he felt peace about what he as doing (page 116).
Many of the Nazis may have used the excuse, "I was only carrying out orders." But at some point we are responsible for our own choices, thinking processes, willingness to be accessories, and our actions. Ones like Rudolf clearly knew what they were doing and the heinous aspect of it... But they chose to believe that the prisoners deserved it and that this brutality was the right course of action...a conclusion which most other civilized nations did not agree with.

[Katy]

David wrote: "When reading the chapter on Rudolf, I keep wondering what it was about him that didn't seem to satisfy his superiors. On more than one occasion, he is not looked upon favorably in keeping his posi..."

David I think there is much that we are missing on understanding Rudolf, but your point here that he doesn't quite satisfy his superiors must give us some initial clues. Although Rudolf seems to admire Himmler, I agree that it is not a two way admiration. Rudolf gets things done, no matter what. His superiors are using him for their ends, but can not quite trust someone who does this type of duty so willingly and well. I think he scares even those above him.

[Katy]

In our first few chapters there were several comments made on how the Alexanders were rich and had everything. Interesting how quickly the tables have turned. Now they have basically nothing and Rudolf and his family want for nothing. Yet, the personalities do not change.

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Kathy interesting juxtaposition of the two families and the reversal of fortune.

[Vincent]

Kathy wrote: "In our first few chapters there were several comments made on how the Alexanders were rich and had everything. Interesting how quickly the tables have turned. Now they have basically nothing and Ru..."

interesting observations -

I would think however the personalities did change - or at least emotions.

The Alexanders learned to live with fear and uncertainty - and saw they were lucky to survive.

RH on the other hand went from the relatively certain role/work as a farmer / husband / father - to being insecure and being forced to change his personality and views to accommodate the tasks he wound up doing. RH, in his way, like the Alexanders (and maybe most or all of Germany) lost his life and thought style to the Nazis.

However on a physical comfort and possession viewpoint you are correct.

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

"Thought style" interesting choice of words Vince and for the most part you are right - all of Germany lost something to the Nazis and Hitler - everybody ended up being losers and not just the war. Thankfully the years that have followed have been kinder to the survivors, their families, Europe and Germany/German people.

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Rudolf's last name for our purposes in this discussion should be spelled Hoess. We were spelling it a variety of ways. But Hoess it is.

[Kristen]

I'm coming back to the book and catching up after taking a pause. Obviously this post of mine is very late, but it's fair according to the T's and C's to jump in after the fact as needed, right Bentley?

I've read on since Week 4 but couldn't even formulate my thoughts after finishing chapter 7. I honestly wanted to get away from thinking about that final chilling paragraph:

"Rudolf had now 'solved' the problem handed to him by Himmler: to find a technique for murdering hundreds of thousands, maybe millions, of people. As he later wrote: Now my mind was at ease.”

It almost makes me sick to my stomach thinking about the Hoess family’s life of comfort – right at the camp – while all this is taking place just adjacent to “the villa.” And what a relief to know that Rudolf’s mind was put at ease when someone came up with a nifty solution for exterminating humanity.

G made a reference above that sums up this section of story perfectly: it ‘sickens the soul.’

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Of course Kristen - it is not when you catch but that you actually do (smile).

Yes - that sentence shows the calmness and the acceptance that this was no big deal - at least not to an average Nazi during that time period! Shocking. They perceived the Jewish people as enemies and enemies of Germany itself.

Hard to believe that normal human beings were worked up into a frenzy of hate and could even potentially have felt this way - never mind that they actually did and carried through with such horrible and sad outcomes.

There did not seem to be any empathetic souls in the Nazis who were at these concentration camps. They really did not get it and some according to some of the recent documentaries show some guards or lower ranking military personnel being interviewed who were at the camps and were shooting at innocent women and children and to this day - they still do not. That is the scary part.

Those folks who are still living felt animosity towards the Jewish people then and some articulated that they know it was unjust but they felt that way. There were no apologies or personal recriminations for their actions.

In the documentary Auschwitz: The Nazi Final Solution produced by Laurence Rees - there were such interviews documented. Very sad.

[Whitney]

I am also coming to the discussions late Kristen, but people have been great about responding. It also adds a lot to my reading to come here as I read, and see what other people are thinking about different parts of the book.

I liked the growth of Hans in chapter 6. While some of it was forced by horrendous circumstances, I liked seeing the change from previous chapters with more focus on him, and his decisions about his life. I was very worried while reading about Hans' family as they split up to find a way out of Germany. I was surprised that his immediate family was able to make it out.

In chapter 7 Rudolph seemed to be settling into his new role. I found his admitted paranoia of the people around him to be another turning point. "I turned suspicious, I saw nothing but deception everywhere...I instantly looked for what was bad in every newcomer to the camp."(p99) I think this is one of the many reasons Rudolph was able to make some of the horrible choices he made such as mass murder.

[Katy]

Whitney, I had forgotten that line, "I turned suspicious, I saw nothing but deception everywhere...I instantly looked for what was bad in every newcomer to the camp."(p99) I agree with you, Rudolf made a conscious decision at this point as to what he would be able to do.

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Excellent citation Whitney - I agree with Kathy.